I've played through it several times, and I've been meaning to play it again for a while now (and DA2, mostly to refresh my memory on things -- I've found some nifty mods that should help some too). I'd say that constitutes "lasting value."

I actually liked this. I prefer characters having a consistent unique design and weapons over constantly switching them out with generic looking stuff just to juggle some stupid numbers. For example, Morrigan's robe is iconic. It's what you meet her in, it's what she wears in all the promotional and concept art, etc. Having to replace it with some shitty looking Tevinter robe was extremely grating. Same goes for ME1 -- dressing say, Garrus up in something like that ridiculous pink and white armor just because it edged out a tiny bit in a stat. It was enough that I just left him in his default armor (or at least the same model at a higher level) and made do with having to revive him a lot more often. I was relieved when I didn't have to do the same for ME2 and DA2 with Merrill and the others -- they could keep their unique design.

That's not to say I don't think they can improve on the concept. More control in how you can upgrade their armor's stats would be nice. Just do it without dressing them in the same shit some nobody guard or bandit is wearing.

 

In defense of the idea - I agree that BioWare's generic armor design is shitty compared to their character-centric design. DAO has pretty lame armors and weapons for the most part. Yet, look at Dark Souls, or other 3d games that still manage to create armors with personality - a clear sense of progression. There was no progression in DAO's gear, visually (and for the most part, DAO's progression in terms of stats isn't that interesting either).

The fact you've played DA2 multiple times does not surprise me. We haven't had many new story driven RPGs worth playing in years. This is mostly BioWare's fault. You ocassionally have something like The Witcher come out, but it's been just one long dry spell since 2005 or so.

The mechanics in DA2 are truly awful and many of them were designed as cheap short cuts to actually creating content.

There is no reason to scrap the ability to switch out armor/weapons for your companion characters just because the art team can't get it together.

Finally, it gets tiring, seeing the same character in the same robes or armor all game long. Anders and Aveline are especially big eyesores for me. Merill's cooler colors are nicer on the eyes, at least. It doesn't change the fact much of what DA2 did was wrong.

A few elements are good, I won't lie. If the game had been centered on the conflict of the Airshok (and it had been built up better), it would have been a good enough RPG to not earn my eternal ire.

 

I'm probably past 1000 hours on Dragon Age: Origins. In fact it might be closer to 2. It is my very favorite game. Feels good

 

I played at least 6 times. More than 300 hours, easily, more like 450. The visuals aren't stunning, but the stroy is very good, an the way you can create your own character with a distinctive personality, and be able to carry it through, is amazing. And why it's Bioware faul that there aren't many story-driven rpgs, when they are basically dpthe only one who do them?

 

Actually no, just DAO. I've only played DA2 fully once. I tried to play it again a while back but I only got like a quarter of the way through it. The next time I give it a try I'm going to load it with mods to at least try and patch some leaks.

 

I liked the combat in DA2, it made playing a mage more interesting than just standing there shooting magic missile.

 

Good lord.

 

You forgot number ten, Chime. Shame on you. This was actually the most important one.

#10 Story

Dragon Age 2 doesn't actually have one. Before playing DA2, I would have argued that this was impossible. "It can't be that it has no story," I would have said. "It's a sequence of events. There literally has to be a plot by the definition of the word. It may not be a good plot, or a well structured one, but it still has to be present. You can't say it doesn't exist just because you personally don't like it."

But I was wrong. It actually is possible for a story to not have a story. It's possible for there to be no plot at all.

Let's walk through the first third of the game, shall we?

The game opens with us fleeing the Darkspawn of the first game. They destroyed our home, and we're running away. It becomes clear very quickly that the goal here is to survive and escape. "Okay," you think. "So the story is parallel to Origins, then? We're going to be the story that happened in the background?

But no. We're actually leaving entirely. "Ah HA," you think. "So THIS is the story! We're going to be fleeing to a new land! This is going to be our trials and tribulations."

But no, it's not. We fast forward, and we're already there in Kirkwall. "Huh, that was weird," you think. But then you realize you can't get into the city, and the only way is if you either join the mercenary band or the smugglers. "HA," you say. "So we're finally here at the story, then. Great. I choose which group I want to work for, and then we play through the story of working for them, climbing our way up to citizenship while working to pay off our debts. This will be a story about the seedier side of Dragon Age, a story about-

"Wait. What the hell? Did we just skip forwards the entire year? What the hell happened? I thought we were going to work off our debts!"

And so it goes. You have people calling out to you in the streets, old friends greeting you talking about "that one time shit got really hairy, haha, good thing you were there." An so forth, and so on. They're referencing 'good old days' that you never saw, nudging you in the ribs about old favors and how you saved their asses that one time, and you have absolutely no idea what they're taking about. The game skipped all of that. You pick who you work for, and then it just fast forwards past it to the part where you're in. And you can't even pretend it didn't happen, because people keep referencing all these cool things 'you' did, and how "you were really dependable, best hand I ever hired, ect." The game doesn't just skip forward past this, it rubs the fact that it did in your face.

Now you're starting to get frustrated. You play around a bit, meet Varric, and get roped into going into a Deep Roads expedition. "Okay," you think to yourself. "Finally, we're here. This is the plot. Everything else was just a weirdly put together introduction. Now that we're here, things will start to happen and the story will emerge."

And it seems like that's the case. You go into the Deep Roads, Shit Gets Real with your surviving sibling, you fight a giant goddamn spider, and then Bartram betrays you for a creepy ass Lyrium idol that's glowing the wrong color in a "Primeval Thaig" that no one has ever heard of that's practically oozing Lovecraftian malice.

"Fucking finally!" you say to yourself. "Here we fucking go! Artifact of Doom found, antagonist created, creepy background established. This is the story! We're going to have to hunt that thing down, shit's going to get real, it'll get sold to the Viacount or find it's way into the hands of a Tevinter sorcerer who will go mad with power and start summoning a Great Old One from the Fade or something. Shit yeah!"

And then Bartram gets away, the idol doesn't get explained, the Primeval Thaig never comes up again, and the idol makes a reappearance in approximately one sidequest (optional) and again as an eleventh hour superpower for Meredith. It's not a recurring problem. It doesn't show up repeatedly and fuck things up. It fucks Bartran, and then it fucks Meredith ten hours of gameplay later when you'd probably forgotten all about it.

And so the pattern goes. The game keeps making you think "this is the point where we're finally getting started," but it's not. You 'got started' when you were running from the Blight. The 'plot' of the game is that it has no plot. It keeps introducing new and completely unrelated hooks that are then discarded after barely having time to cocktease you, let alone resolve. The progression of events is like if you took a bunch of episodes of Supernatural and Buffy, cut the episodes in half, discarded the end halves, shuffled them together, dealt a row of seven cards on the table, and then took the back half of the third episode you dealt, and glued it onto the end of the final one.

That's how the story of Dragon Age 2 progresses. That's the story. The story is that there isn't one. It's just a bunch of cool things happening off-screen, and some guy and his friends faffing about for seven years before some crazy bitch goes super insane and tries to kill everyone and then you kill her, the end.

The only consistent theme present in the game is that it's all taking place in and around Kirkwall, which makes me question why the game was called Dragon Age 2 (which implies a direct sequel of events to Origins), and not Dragon Age: Kirkwall, which is what it actually was.

DA2 isn't Dragon Age Origins 2. It's barely even a Dragon Age game. It's a sequence of randomized mini-plots that are, on the whole, completely unconnected to each other, happening randomly as time progresses. There is no unifying theme besides "shit happens in Kirkwall." There is no unifying plot that drives the story. It could have been the Lyrium Idol, but it only shows up twice, once when you find it and once in the endgame, with a possible sighting in the midgame during an optional quest to deal with Bartram, who kept a little shard of it before selling it off. It's not a recurring nemesis or evil plot device. It too is discarded haphazardly after introduction, only to apparently be remembered at the last minute of endgame, because somebody went "oh shit, we can't just have Orsino be the final boss, we need Meredrith to be all crazy and superpowered evil too, but shit, she can't use Blood Magic. LYRIUM IDOL."

Dragon Age 2 isn't just a failure in regards to gameplay, what it wanted to be, how it handled equipment, or how it dealt with leveling and increasing your character's power.

It also failed as a story. It failed at being a story on a fundamental level. It failed to a degree that I didn't even think it was possible to. Playing Dragon Age 2 literally redefined my personal definition of what does and does not make a story.

I used to think having characters interacting with each other and a forward progression of events meant there was a plot by definition. "Just look at Waiting for Godot," I would have said. "It's two guys waiting for a third guy shooting the shit for the entire play. It's as minimalist as you can get, and yet it still has a plot and a story, because it has interacting characters and a forward progression of events."

Dragon Age 2 changed that. I must now acknowledge a tier of storytelling failure that I had, up until that point, not witnessed even in the darkest and foulest dregs of fanfiction. This level of bad exists. It really is possible to have a story that has no story. Dragon Age 2 accomplished it.

We're supposed to feel sad, I suppose, that Hawke and his companions "never again crossed paths." Honestly, by the end of it, I didn't feel sad. I just felt confused, because I still wasn't completely clear on why some of them were supposed to be my friends in the first place. We didn't feel like a tight-nit group of comrades. We felt like a bunch of random guys who had been inexplicably standing around together for awhile, but then split apart because we had other places to be.

Dragon Age 2 had us waiting for plot and story like the two strangers were waiting for Godot. And like the play, Godot never came.

Which they could have effortlessly accomplished by either not showing ally equipment on their sprite at all (the appearance of clothes and armor remain static regardless of what you equip to them, only weapons change), or by putting a Default Ally Appearance checkbox in the options menu just like Toggle Headgear, allowing you to set your allies to appear only as though they have their default/iconic gear on.

But they didn't do that, because they are lazy, and we aren't allowed to have nice things.

 

I didn't criticize the story because I didn't have to, the story writes itself into a corner, I needn't be critical of it. Good summary on the major points - the narrative has pacing issues that never really settle down, you never have a chance to immerse yourself as the protagonist, there is no unifying theme or conflict that really makes any sense, et cetera

But the worst thing about it is the end game, where your choices do not matter one fucking bit! You could be a loyalist heretic-murdering son-of-a-bitch and Meridith STILL fights you. You could totally kick Meridith's ass and side with the hilarious (and poorly portrayed) plight of the mages and you still fight Orsino. Yeah, so much for choices, good going BioWare, godforbid players be forced to replay the game to see a different boss. That's honestly where that stems from, they're too afraid to hide content from players that choose to not see it.

Most of the companion quests end awkwardly too, like they ran out of dev time or something. You kill Merril's WHOLE fucking clan (or you don't), and that's it - she has no new voiced lines after that scene. You killed her whole bloody clan and she has not one new thing to say about that! Coudln't they have shoe horned in a single line? How does she feel about that? Shouldn't she feel regret? I guess I'm not supposed to care, silly me.

Another point I didn't criticize however, was the soundscape. DA2's sound scape is absolutely BARREN. Kirkwall doesn't sound like a bloody city, it sounds (and honestly, looks like) a post apocalyptic wasteland. What's the first thing you hear when you step inside your apartment in VTMB? Fucking soundscape man, it's what makes a game world immersible. Yet, there's clearly none of it in DA2. I really hope they don't pull that same stunt in DA3.

You can make a beautiful cityscape, but without ambient sound to go with it, you pretty much have nothing.

But honestly, I hope BioWare has no plans to introduce the DA2 cast to us again in DA3, but I have a feeling we won't be so lucky.

 

You know what? Fine, DA2 is a bad game. Apparently, this stupid argument isn't going to end unless someone gives in, so I'll fucking say it. There, you happy? Because despite it's flaws, I still fucking like it. Sure, not as much as DAO, but I'm willing to replay it 7 times.

I'm not even touching DAO with you chime, as you seem to hate that too. Hasn't stopped me from playing the damn game so many times I've lost count. It's on of- no it is my favorite game of all time.

But you know what? This thread wasn't made to argue about DA2, or DAO, it's for fans -people who like the games- to discuss DA:I. And I'm excited as hell for it. Like I said, I probably won't buy it right away, but I'm still fucking buying it.

 

I think you can enjoy a game and still acknowledge its flaws.

 

Exactly. The way I classify anything as "Good," or "Bad," is by asking myself if I enjoyed it. if yes, then it's Good. If no, then it's bad.

The difference here is that apparently the we go about classifying good and bad is different. Or maybe it's not. I can see how all the flaws mentioned can keep someone from enjoying the game. But I had already said it all comes down to a matter of opinion.

And in my opinion, the game is enjoyable. At least for me.

 

Right. Well, it always boils down to that. I can acknowledge people might enjoy the game, and that trying to classify a game as "good or bad" is fruitless endeavor anyway, I agree, but it's just, BioWare pisses me off. I'd like it if they, you know, tried? You can enjoy DA2, but you'd enjoy DA3 more probably if you and other consumers resisted some of the bullshit they pull a little more, if you held the opinion that the game simply isn't good enough.

Maybe it's pointless to try and lay any blame on the consumer, companies will do what they do. BioWare has been especially obstinant in regards to changing their games to suit player demands. If DA3 isn't total shit though, it's because they listened to people like me. I'm convinced that I'm right in that regard, as arrogant as that sounds...

Yet, whether I say the game is bad, or you say it's "not that bad" it's still a matter of opinion. I think I get that, but also at the same time, we can't just decide not to react to games, to have opinions on them, otherwise, what's the point of discussion? What's the point of caring? I care that developers don't try to impress me anymore and that they can be satisfied "streamlining" shit (which is dev speak for "cutting everything out of the game the casual consumer doesn't appreciate or understand).

Don't take it bloody personally, but I've read enough optimistic opinions on DA2 being "not that bad" that I'm totally insensitive to them, genuine or not. I get that you can enjoy the characters, or maybe some of the dialog, but there's nothing charming about the mechanics, and certain elements of the story are so awful that it's a crime. EA shit DA2 out in under a year - that alone should be a capital offense from the average consumer.

I probably shouldn't care. That's the message I get when I rant about this shit. It's just a video game, right? I just end up offending peope and doing nothing productive. Maybe it's just that, at one point, I was a fan of BioWare, and at some point, that fandom was perverted into an extreme dislike. To the point where, anyone who defends the decisions they've made almost seems like an enemy, the kind of person BioWare uses to justify their decisions.

In short? I probably enjoyed Baldur's Gate a bit too much. Nostalgia is painful. "DA2 isn't that bad" - if someone said that to me in a crowded bar, and I were drunk... well, maybe if I'd some sass I'd start a brawl - them's fightin' words fer me.

 

And I get that too like I said it's a matter of opinion. It's not the fact that you dislike the game that irks me, it's that I feel it detracts from the point of this thread. (At least at this point) Now, if the thread was one DA2, or just the franchise, or even Bioware itself, I wouldn't mind. But when I see arguments like the one we've been having in a thread meant for people to discuss the next game, I get irritated. It's fine to say something like "I hope they don't repeat x mistake from DA2," or "This mechanic sucked in the previous games, I hope it changes in the next one."

I feel bad because I participated in it, and might have started it. If I'd left raine's comment alone, this probably wouldn't have happened. Still, the point remains.

 

I was trying to hold back my seething dislike for BioWare, but you did go and mention DA2, but it was also inevitable, honestly, any BioWare thread at this point will drift to discussion about DA2 because well, we still don't knwo shit about DA3. This thread is almost pointless, though I guess we'll be getting a lot more DA3 news this month? It still won't be very forthcoming.

 

Eh, probably. It's why I said my one words on the matter were, "Enchantment." There just isn't that much else to say.

Though for whoever didn't want the DA2 cast to show up again, I think someone mentioned Varric. Which is fine for me, as he was one of the few non-bland characters, imo.

Still, I wanna see Oghren or Sten come back, though apparently the latter is the new Arishok in Kirkwall? Or is that just the comics?

 

Untrue. I thoroughly enjoyed the dialogue wheel mechanic, and feel that every game post DA2 that Bioware has produced would have benefited from having it. DA2 wasn't content to just have a 'red' and a 'blue' option. There were the Olive Branch choices, where you'd be diplomatic or attempt to placate someone who was angry, the 'Halo' choice that was basically 'Paragon/Light Side,' the 'Fist' choice that was 'Renegade/Dark Side,' the Stack of Coins that meant it was an option that would (attempt, sometimes successfully) to weasel more of a reward or otherwise tilt events to reward you directly with material wealth, the Crossed Swords option that let you know 'This Will Start A Fight,' and a number of others that I'm sure I'm forgetting.

And of course, my personal favorite, the Jester Mask option, aka "be a flippant sarcastic jackass."

Do you have any fucking idea how much I would have abused Jester Mask in Mass Effect 3?

"What's that, Turian Councilor? Your people are being attacked, and you're demanding my help in saving your entire planet before you pledge any military assets to save the galaxy? Well sure! Why not? It's not like anybody else is getting invaded. I'll get right on that just as soon as I have a fleet of ships to help liberate, oh wait, I don't have a fleet of ships! Wow, you're kind of fucked, aren't you?"

The DA2 dialogue wheel was far, far more conductive to roleplaying than any previous setup that Bioware had conceived of. It's just sad that it didn't see as much full use as it should have, and equally sad that Hawk was a character that was difficult to roleplay, because s/he already has something of an established personality, whereas other characters, like Shepard, for instance, are far more flexible in that regard.

DA2 had the dialogue wheel that every other Bioware game should have had, but didn't. I'll be interested in seeing if they retain it for Inquisition, because that will defiantly be something on my checklist.

Chime isn't saying you can't have fun playing DA2. He's not telling you that you're wrong to do so. He's not questioning your taste, or even getting angry at you specifically, and there really isn't an 'argument' going on.

Chime is upset at Bioware in general, much like I am. He's explaining why DA2 is objectively a whole lot worse than it could have been.

You can still have fun playing it. It's not an unplayable game. It's not Superman 64. I had fun messing around in it about a week ago. Mage-Hawks and other mages in general have dedicated kung-fu action with their attacks (another thing I hope they port forwards into Inquisition and beyond), and rolling around with Varric, Aveline, and Isabela while spamming Jester options in dialogue is probably one of the most entertaining things you can do in a game. It's three utterly incorrigible scoundrels punching their way through Kirkwall while a member of the lawful authorities plays straight man to their shenanigans. It's hilarious.

 

So Dragon Age doesn't live up to BG legacy? Who gives a fuck? I haven't played BG. I didn't even know such a game existed until I played DA:O, which was advertised as BG's successor.

Because, y'know, this thread isn't called "DA2 - good or bad?" It's called DA:I. So fuck all your rants about how bad of a game DA2 is.

Now, let's get back on topic, shall we?

 

This isn't something to be proud off. You should go and rectify that mistake as soon as possible, and play the Bhaalspawn Saga, to see how it's superior to DA: O. How BioWare made games before they begin pandering to the lowest denomination and sucking corporate cocks.

DA has 3 races and 3 classes and 6 origin stories? Cute. BG has 7 races, 11 races and 12 classes and 13 or something multiclasses, and 1 origin story but who cares about it. Hundred of spells, hundred of items, unforgettable main villains (Sarevok, Irenicus) - basically, everything was better in BG, and DA could never even attempt to become a successful spiritual successor of it.

Yeah, I'm a Baldur's Gate Saga fanboy

 

I don't subscribe to 'you're not a real gamer if you haven't played this and that and blahblahblah' viewpoint. Sorry.

Spoiler

I'm not.

I'm one of those people who enjoyed HOMM4 and loved grinding Dogwoggle to lvl 40+ during the last campaign of the "Gathering Storm" expansion.

I'm one of those people who used UMP45/silencer + Glock .22/akimbo in CoDMW2 after those two guns had been declared "cheap" and "nooby" and laughed at the whiners loudly while my team kicked their asses in Domination mode by spawnkilling the loosers on Afghan. And then I would equip my 44 Magnums and run around the map while those same loosers whined about how I'm a cheater for being able to switch to my secondary weapon so fast, because the noobs didn't know that you switch to handguns faster than any other sidearm.

I'm one of those people who used the Avenger on Gold in ME3 and had a ton of fun doing it.

I'm one of those people that loved Berserker/Vanguard Sword'n'Board warrior in DA2, surfing across the map and bashing enemies in the face while Deadmau5 played in the background.

I'm one of those people who spend hundreds of hours playing HOMM5 and got their kicks out of raising 20k Skeleton Archers or raising the Knight's Defense to such retarded levels that neutral dragons had a hard time chipping away hp on my Griffins.

What say you to that, good sir?