Yep, 2:05 spawn timers went through in patch 3.10 because double golems still snowballed bot lanes on blue side. A halfway decent smiteless leash would cost 2cs at most, and laners would still be able to pick up the experience for the second creep.

Elise is still a top tier jungler despite the recent nerfs, and though she only has cocoon for cc, she can stick on enemies for days with spider form Q and rappel. She also dishes out a lot of damage because of her %health abilities.

Zac is also up there, though I haven't played him much since getting him. Nasus is also a strong pick in competitive play because of his ability to solo drag at 6 and still have an impact throughout the game unlike Shaco. Maokai, Amumu, Malphite and other AOE clear junglers just got completely shat on since Season 3 started because it's all about early pressure now.

By the way, Korean Summoner School Lesson 2 - Jungle, is out with translations now. CloudTemplar plays Amumu, Watch plays Elise.

 

I didn't see Nasus in your post so I figured I'd point him out. Build him tanky (boots > golem > locket > randuins / spirit visage then w/e as your last item - sunfire, warmogs, thornmail, wit's end, maybe a trinity force, etc.) as you like and farm as much as you can and his Q will wreck faces when the time comes. When you pop ult in a teamfight and just stand there and then Q someone you'll be surprised by how much damage he does.

 

And way ninja'd. New pages OP

 

Zerg, it's only the little camps that are getting pushed back to 2:05, not the buff camps. I believe Rep was asking if all camps are getting changed.

 

I'm a really new LoL Player, but I've taken to jungling with Warwick. I really like his sustainability? With him I can clear the jungle with only two health potions, and I really enjoy his ult. Then again I've only been playing beginner bots so I'm not sure how well he stacks up in team games.

 

Slowly starting to play more Rift again. I'm trying to stay in the jungle to get used to the role, doing alright as Nocturne, picked up Lee Sin who I love, and rarely Amu or Cho. Olaf seems like he's shit now, Naut I got but dont really enjoy playing.

I can usually do okay, one of my ranked Noct games I was a damned beast, but the folks I normally play with (family) are shit listeners and fail at ganks.

 

Warwick is good in under level 30 games with his massive sustain, but when you level up and people start having full rune pages and such, Warwick has quite a bad jungle clear speed, and before level 6 ganking needs the enemy to be either a) asleep or b) mentally challenged.

But I've heard quite some rumours that Warwick will get some attention to him from Riot soon, fingers crossed, was one of my favourite champions in season 1.

 

I don't think that Warwick is as bad as a lot of people say he is. His clear is still pretty decent and his ult is a pretty much guaranteed kill in a gank. Everytime I have one on my team I seem to win.

 

He's susceptible to invades and he's not the best duelist, but what makes him bad is that ganks are really hard to pull off pre-6. That means other junglers with more playmaking ability can shift the course of the game with early ganks that turn into objectives before Warwick can clear enough to hit 6. Nocturne is a bit like that too but his fear and ms boost through q make him a little more useful, and the lights out on his ult has an effect on everyone's mind along with the single target dash.

 

If you run the experience quints and utility masteries (+11% exp) even if you don't tax any lanes if your initial clear is a full one (blue wolves wraiths red golem in any order) then you will hit six after you clear wolves and wraiths again. I played with a guy who did this and he out leveled the solo lanes to six, which was pretty brutal. His ult is a definite kill on anyone with 3/4 life even with no buffs if your lane is paying attention.

Also a nice thing about WW is he can start dorans blade jungle if you go as/ar/mr/exp and speed up your clear and sustain a lot. I'm not saying abutting about his viability just that I've seen it work like that.

Math works out to be (in a rush to 6):

Clear order:
Blue wolves wraiths red golems wolves wraiths golems wolves wraiths
(Or you can rush red and blue like standard)

Exp sans quints 2273 (level 5)
Exp with quints 2523 (level 6)

You'd have to actually run it to time it but I'm confident you'll be able to see a marked difference in your ability to affect the game getting 6 the equivalent of at least one camp ( but probably two). Golem gives 239 which should theoretically level you to 6 but if you lost any of the small minions from buff camps exp you'll have to clear another camp to get it.

 

Warwick's clear speed is NOT slow. If you get a smiteless blue, usually you can hit level 6 the same time or slightly after your midlaner does. (Sometimes before if you had to cover a lane). I generally run 0/9/21, using the gold mastery and exp in the utility tree. It's really really strong to start off Machete+Rejuv bead + Pot. It is true his pre-6 ganks aren't good, but his after 6 ganks are so OP that it makes up for it. Being able to guarantee a kill every 60 seconds is ridiculous, and puts a lot of pressure onto enemy lanes.

I do agree though that he's not very strong against aggressive junglers like Lee Sin. But he's not really that shabby dueling himself. I played him yesterday and killed a Vi 1v1 because she was trying to counter jungle me at level 3 (It was a close fight, but it shows that Warwick isn't as bad of a duelist as you may believe). If you can get past the stage of securing both of your first buffs, than Warwick is golden for the rest of the game. Usually, I first b at level 5 to get Boots of Mobility+finish spirit stone. Can take wraiths for level 6, and gank mid/top for a kill before heading to blue for it to respawn.

You do not need EXP runes. They really are a waste, and you affect your clear time too. MS quints and atk speed marks are too nice to pass up.

 

Well in the recent months I've been pretty much relegated to jungle. While I don't particularly like it, it's allowed me to get proficient in quite a few different champions. These are just my thoughts on what I've played since I started.

Malphite was my first serious jungler and still probably one of the safest champs to go into the jungle. His ability to just tank everything combined with decent clear speed makes him a very solid pick. Can't duel for crap early on but shouldn't be expected to as the initiator/tank of the team.

Chogath is a monster in the jungle, no seriously. Ridiculous sustain, fast clear speed, strong ranged cc from a knock up and silence, as well free health that lets him get really tanky without even having to itemize for it. Plus true damage again means he doesn't have to itemize for damage either to tear someone a new asshole.

Hecarim has solid sustain when maxing w first and can gank early in the game. His ganks sometimes are also so fast that even if spotted by enemy wards, can just keep charging in before they can even react. In team fights, his w lets him tank a lot of damage and his ulti is a good disruptor that lets him just stick to anyone. Again, not the best duelist in the jungle especially if his w is on cooldown but he has high mobility so that's fine.

Amumu has very high clear speed and his natural tankiness lets him come out relatively unscathed from the jungle. Early on, he has quite a bit of mana problems but it's not something a combination of spirit/philo stone can't solve. He also does a surprising amount of damage in addition to his hard cc thanks to his constant crying and tantrums.

Leona is slow as balls clearing the jungle. Furthermore, she has even worse mana problems than Amumu. But she makes up with some pretty strong ganks and hard lock down that almost always guarantees a kill. I've experimented with her for a while now ever since trying her out and found that getting attack speed red and yellow runes along with a madred's razor instead of spirit stone really helps with her early clearing speed. Don't really need to invest in the spirit line right away as her whole point in the jungle is to gank more instead of farming. With enough ganks, you should easily be able to return with enough gold to buy cooldown items and just snowball your team. I've had quite a bit of success playing her as jungle in solo que since everyone and their moms love playing champs with high damage but low cc.

Jarvan IV is someone that I've recently picked up and I really like him. Free tank stats from his e and w, armor shred and knock up from q, and an ulti that basically spells doom to anyone who either has no flash or jump escapes. Favorite strat is to force a flash first from e q combo and then pretend to back off. Those that are stupid and didn't ward would almost always think I've left and go right back to farming/harassing, letting me show up again to ulti their face and securing a kill.

Nocturne is another champ that I've picked up recently that I'm really enjoying. Free attack damage and speed as well as a fear lets me build him tank without worrying about damage early on. Unlike others, I usually just stay in the jungle as Nocturne and only counter gank until I'm level 6. Then I'll go balls to the walls on either mid or bot.

 

Way more to it then you make it sound like imho. His movement boost from Q makes him damned near unkitable if you land it, I've chased people down with it even when they've flashed. His W is a spellshield with a 40% AS buff at max rank, and an 80% AS boost if you block an ability, in a teamfight ignore that ADC ulti and rape them.

His fear coupled with damage is just annoying broken to have it hit you, since you can't get away from the Q stick, and yes his ulti. Also, I can't tell you how many times I've used his ulti now to ninja a tower down, or just to block vision while my team made a play. I've eaten an ulti on purpose with the shield to get a massive AS buff, turned their vision off, dove the turret, and just mowed the tower down with capped AS. Had enough time to Q away and recall as vision was coming back. You want to piss a team off, drop a tower like that, they flip the hell out.

 

Surprised that no one has brought up any of the S4 jungle changes yet. So far, with the pre-season, the jungle has seen some pretty hefty changes. A few questions to rouse debate:


1. What junglers do you foresee becoming strong or weak? Are farming junglers going to become more prevalent or are ganking junglers going to be the most popular? Are we going to see the return of control junglers or has the removal of oracle's completely eliminated that type?

2. Are jungle items going to remain a mainstay in item builds or have the nerfs made the items inefficient? What item(s) will you use, if any?

3. Has a jungler's gold income been improved with the changes to the jungle items and the addition of the Wight camp or has income remained the same?

4. How have vision trinkets affected a jungler? Will it become more difficult as expected? Or will it force junglers to become more innovative forcing a higher learning curve?

5. With double Relic Shield becoming popular, is the jungle role still viable? How will this affect the current meta? Will people still cry out for ganks or complain about the lack of a jungler?

6. With the nerf to smite would another summoner spell be more useful, such as another exhaust or ignite? Should it only be taken on counter-junglers? Is it still useful for securing or stealing buffs, dragon, or Baron?

7. How has jungle pathing been affected? Is it more punishing and less rewarding or vice versa? Are invasions still worth the risk? How should counter-jungling be approached? How should one cope if they are being counter-jungled?


These are just a few questions I've thought about. Of course, I have my own opinions on each, but I would love to see some new perspectives. As for where I'm coming from, or rather, what allows me to speak with at least a little competence, is that I main jungle with Sejuani being my main champion and I'm currently Gold 3 in solo queue. Anyway, would love to see some discussion.

 

Any champions that have decent clear and strong 1v1/2v2 from levels 3-9 are going to be extremely strong (Udyr is sleeper op). I think Mundo, Brand, Cho, Karthus, Kha'Zix, and maybe Xin are going to become super strong picks and maybe top WW.

Jungle items are going to stay mandatory unless you snowball early on, they're all gold efficient except for wriggles, that shit is useless.

Wight camp is negligible, it's only useful if you have nothing else to do. The gold income changes are slightly noticeable, you're able to pick up a bit more gold off ganks and farming but you're still going to need to be significantly better than your laners to get more gold than them.

It'll change things in competitive play and high elo solo queue. Anything under diamond 1 isn't going to be affected by trinkets until around mid game.

Double Relic Shield isn't popular anymore, and when it was you would just go lane with your top laner.

Smite is still mandatory, the only way to make people stop taking it is half the max damage.

Jungle pathing is gay now. You need to do 3 camps to hit 3 now, you can't just go red->blue-> gank anymore. Invades are a lot more one sided now if you use trinkets properly. If you're being counter-jungled go soak exp/gold from a lane.

 

Urgh, I'd written a big long post answering all those questions then lost it. Cbf writing it all again so I'll just say Eve is the best jungler if you know how to use her well. Alos trinkets buffed junglers because laners get greedy and don't buy wards early so their lanes aren't warded most of the time.

 

Not too sure about that Brand jungle. In any case, I think most S3 junglers that were strong are all still strong now. It is tough for those that were use to early ganks though, since the jungle is slower in general atm.

It's not too bad tbh. If you smite blue, do wolves, and go to red (will have smite again), then you hit level 3 maybe around 10 seconds slower, depending on the jungler. You can gank at this point, or farm Golems>Wraiths>Wolves>Wight. I usually skip the wight and gank after doing wolves the second time.

One thing to get use to is using Smite more often. While before, you often had to save it, now there's no reason to at all.

 

Invisible junglers like Eve right off the bat are super strong just because of the change to visibility. That said, she's still squishy as fuck and can get turned on. It seems the same roster of junglers as last patch work just fine, you're Vi, Lee, Elise etc but with more Shyvana and Olaf because of their relatively quick clears and ability to farm farm farm. Shyvana actually benefits from Wriggles as she can keep all camps on respawn but you have to hope your laners aren't doing anything to get caught, so... Ancient Golem is still superior on her though.

Ancient Golem's still the best choice on pretty much everyone because of the stats it offers. Wriggles is useless, Elder Lizard is now useless on Eve and is bought if you're snowballing hard from what I've seen. Spectral Wraith works well on the standard AP's so Eve, Fiddle and Gragas as you have 0 mana problems without blue and it's good sustain.

To me it's the same. We have 2 options now unlike the end of last season. We either gank, or we farm. You farm? You keep up with solo laners assuming you tax whenever you gank as before. You gank? You better be successful or a quicker farmer or else you fall behind like you normally would barring a load of objectives in quick succession on your own.

Early game feels the same as before; If someone had a ward, you either navigated around it or left. Now they're only 60 seconds, you can go clear another camp and come back, odds are good it'll be gone. You can always check by clicking on the guy and looking at their trinket, or you could last I played. By mid game most people switch out to sweeper so, it should be easier than before, doubly so if you're Eve.

Relic Shield fell off after the nerf to me, ancient coin is the better item now because its passive is great for pretty much everyone, everyone loves regen and a team with Shurelya's or whatever it is now vs one without it has a huge advantage. The new Kage's feels meh, it's ok but the active is useful on like, Fiddlesticks and that's about it. Regarding ganks... Solo-q is solo-q so if someone over-extends and get caught, expect it to be your fault.

Smite is still fine, you just have to be aware the damage early game is pretty bad, but on the brightside you can smite your first buff now and avoid getting made into paste by the new jungle. Timewise first 2 buffs remain the same for most people even with another small camp in-between. It feels like counterjungling would be easier too as you're not waiting on Smite or risking no smite, though invades post 3 minutes become riskier due to the possible exp advantage. Stealing, sure, if you're equal or higher, but you need so much luck with burst damage these days, god bless Godwater.

Jungle pathing, no real difference early. You just have to smite your first buff and do a small camp inbetween whilst waiting on Smite's CD. Some people choose to clear their whole jungle, buy Madreds and then go do their 2nd buff. Too risky to me, even as a fast farmer like Udyr or Shyvana.

Counter jungling is still worth it if you're against someone that has to gank early ie Lee Sin, just be aware if the gank succeeds then you're in for a troubling game as a farmer, though theoretically you should be able to pick up the slack with your farm. Invasions... Level 1's always a cheesefest. After that, up to you if you think you know what camp they'll do/you can kill their buff fast enough, at least on the first clear.

If you're being counter-jungled, depends who you're against and who you are. I'd just gank more and hope it works out, call for a hand if my buff's come up. If it's someone like Shyv just accept your jungle is gone, ward the entrances and keep an eye out for it. Counterplay like pushing objectives and ganking is probably best.

Disclaimer; Watched far more than I've played since new patch, speaking from 5 jungle games, 2 as Olaf, 1 as Nasus and 2 as Volibear.

 

I frown upon your shenanigans. Don't make me bring up jungle Yorick


Some of my thoughts to help contribute:

1. Sejuani, Zac and Nautilus are my mainstays. The initial clear can be brutal at times, but the hefty amount of CC each one packs makes for some very solid ganks. I believe that they're going to remain strong, and with Zac's E and Sej's Q, the ability to bypass wards is nice.

2. Even with the nerfs, Ancient Golem is still a strong early item. The increase to gold income, the tenacity, the CDR and the health make it well-rounded. Wriggle's just feels odd to use and very situational on a select few champions. Lizard's damage has been nerfed too hard to make it worth the investment over a tiamat if you're snowballing. With the nerf to spellvamp on Spectral Wraith (i.e. no actual spellvamp), it's almost pointless to get unless you're an AP jungle that prefers CDR and could care less about spellvamp.

3. In a few ways, income has improved slightly. With smite on a lower CD, clearing camps for even a slow jungler is much easier allowing for generally better income. The jungle items have helped some as well, with Golem providing some nice chunks of gold if one manages their stacks efficiently. This also provides a chance for the jungler to clear a camp quickly with smite, gain a chunk of gold, go gank, and by the time they return to jungle, a full stack is ready again.
The addition of the wight camp has made a slight impact. Normally, from purple side perspective, top lane farms golems, mid gets wraiths and the jungler is left with wolves and buffs. With the wight camp now added, the jungler has two camps he is able to farm on a regular basis.
Overall, the income has improved slightly but still doesn't compare to a laner unless one devotes all their efforts to farming; however, this gimps the team and allows the enemy jungler to roam mercilessly.

4. Vision trinkets have certainly impacted the gameplay of a jungler in my opinion. As stated previously, Eve is going to be very strong and a natural counter to the trinkets. It would be interesting to see if jungle Twitch makes a comeback or perhaps even Rengar attempting to save face. Either way, stealth champions are going to be strong. Obvious statement is obvious.
Giving Jax and Lee Sin a free early ward should provide some interesting plays by gamers early on in matches.
Any champion with any form of dash or jump will be able to bypass the more commonly placed wards. Some people have weird warding habits though, so it's not foolproof. Champions will include Shen, Sejuani, Zac, Vi, Elise, J4, Maokai, and Shaco, as well as Xin, Jax, and Lee Sin if given the right situation (sight, etc).
The only junglers who will suffer are those who can't keep track of timers. Even champions who rely on early ganks like Sejuani can simply provide a lane gank at top with some modicum of success, at the very least burning a flash.

5. Double Relic shield was short-lived, although the gold income is still rather strong even with the nerf. The jungler position is very well established in the game, and I don't foresee it leaving anytime soon at all.

6. Smite still certainly has its uses and still helps with securing objectives or grabbing a quick camp on one's way to gank a lane. The biggest change is the shorter CD allowing the jungler to essentially smite at will. There still will be situations where a jungler will take another spell in place of flash however. Shaco is notorious for ignite and I, personally, have taken exhaust on Nautilus a number of times. Nautilus is already king of CC with a passive and three abilities with some form of CC, so adding exhaust just makes for either even stronger ganks on solo lanes, turning around counter-ganks, or a wider dispersal of CC on bottom lane. One just has to remember that they don't have flash so you would need to play accordingly.

I would still like to see some more debate on the seventh question(s) and see if any of my personal observations provide further questions or answers.

 

I've only been playing Master Yi in the preseason but I've had a lot of success.

I think farm junglers work right now. I've consistently kept up with farm and items as my solos as Jungle Yi. Lizard Elder is very good on him and I don't think it's bad. In fact, unless your champ scale with HP I would take it over Golem. Spectral Wraith is pretty meh.

I don't think the jungle has changed too much with the trinkets. As BsuperB said, early trinkets are pretty easily played around. However, they do allow you to prevent jungle invades by those pesky Udyrs/Lee Sins which helps the farm junglers.

Junglers are still neccessary, but I think it'll take on a more hybrid role in competitive where you'll probably spend half the time in lane with your solo laner defending the push. In solo queue, not much will change.

I don't think the Smite change was a nerf at all. You can clear the jungle much faster and more times with it. Which helps the farm junglers. I also don't see junglers not taking Smite. It forces the enemy team to play around the fact that you can secure any objective with 1k true damage. Which usually means they can't dragon with the enemy Jungler up.

As for jungle path, I still do both buffs first. You have to Smite early on your first buff for it to be up again for your second buff. It sucks you won't hit level 3, and that definitely hurts the ganking junglers, but you can just wait for a minion from lane, or smite a random camp on the way to a lane. For farm junglers it doesn't really matter.


Edit: Apparently Spectral Wraith isn't that bad on Jungle Gragas. Also, OGN ran a Jungle Riven with Lizard Elder. Granted, they got rolled that game.