new bleach chapter

Kisuke urahara maybe the only reason I still read bleach. His character is such a badass.

 

Some might find this interesting: Explanation of Ichigo's Power.

 

Shame it's wrong. Quincy are not actually humans. They're a different spiritual race, just like shinigami. That they were originally human means nothing, since most shinigami are originally human plus souls (and they all were at some point, as Zanpakuto were artificially created), so becoming a different spiritual entity is nothing new. Isshin became human/shinigami to balance quincy/hollow.

Ichigo was born of four, not three, with the hollow fusing with his shinigami powers and becoming his Zanpakuto, still sealed by the link to Isshin until he grew strong enough as result of Ichigo's growth to break it.

 

Wrong.

Quincy are the humans descended from Yhwach and have the powers he was innately born with. He wasn't born a spirit and his descendants aren't spirits. They're kind of like Fullbringers that pass their powers down to their children. Yhwach wasn't an infant that arrived in soul society either. You could go on and say I can't really know that but given the fact he was named after YHWH and people in soul society wouldn't worship the Abrahamic god that'd be a stretch.

Irregardless of his status Uryu was at least born in the Human world and fights in his human body. He doesn't leave it to fight like Ichigo had to with his Shinigami powers and he wouldn't be able to be seen by all but the most spiritually aware humans if he was. The rest of the Quincy race is no different.

 

If it's born with innate Quincy powers, it's not really "human" is it? If Uryuu can use his powers because he in some way is the descendant of someone who had powers no other human had . . . then he's not human. Or at least, he wouldn't be, if he were pure Quincy.

Like Ichigo, Ishida is part human, because his mom was human. His father was a pureblooded Quincy . . . which means he wasn't human. He only looked human. Humans don't have Quincy powers, and the only a way a Quincy could be even partially "human" would be if they had a parent that was mundane, like Ishida did.

Maybe Quincy is the next step in hominid evolution, but if it is, it certainly isn't human, much like the Astralopithecines aren't human.

 

What about while he slept for 900 years? I had the impression that if there are "pureblooded" Quincy, it can be given or passed down genetically.

Humans were given Quincy powers, but they can then pass those down and their children are apparently just like Yuha Bach, since he didn't take their powers when he returned. Only the half-bloods had their powers confiscated, and they were killed, presumably because they're actually part human.

 

Hmm. So they just continued to live without powers? I thought he could only retake his powers from them in death?

And that still means there's some difference between partially human, or half-blooded, Quincy, and those who are "full-blooded." Being full-blooded seems to imply that Quincy are somehow a fundamentally different being, entity, or species, if you can be 'part-Quincy, part-human.'

 

... The phrases full-blooded or half-blooded actually usually apply to a race or a nationality, afrojack. Not a species.

I thought the Quincies died because Yhwch ripped out his power from them, and forcibly removing a bit of one's soul led to death. Only people with incredible mental strength could survive such a process, e.g. Masaki (though she lost all her powers) and Kanae (though she slipped into a coma).

The only one unaffected was Ryyuken since he's a pure-blood and his family line never included anybody with Yhwch's soul fragments (or anybody who married into it had been "purified" like Masaki was supposed to be before her marriage). Possibly a bunch of Quincies purified themselves in the past to keep out of Yhwch's grasp when he eventually returned, and to fight him if he ever did - thus the purebloods.

In fact, considering Yhwch's powers are very much interlinked with blood, I find the term... suggestive.

 

In RL? Yeah, sure. In Bleach . . . where? They often mention how Ichigo is half-or-quarter-shinigami or whatever. Race or nationality, to my knowledge, has never been mentioned in Bleach. Nor does having Quincy powers have anything to do with that. It's explicitly stated that some are partially human, partially quincy, which automatically implies that Quincy is somehow different to human.

Perhaps, but the ones who lost their powers were those stated to be less than pure-blooded Quincy.

That is almost exactly the model I suggested for pure-blooded immunity to Bach's reclamation of power: they, having been born of two parents gifted with Quincy powers, are in some sense like Bach. They were born as a being of different magnitude, at least different enough that they were immune to this reclamation while those of partially mundane human descent were not.

Yes, very suggestive of the idea that pure-blooded Quincy are spiritual beings at more or less the same degree of removal from normal humanity as shinigami.

EDIT: For example, people don't say "I'm half-French, half-human," or "I'm part-Native American, part-English, part-human," because all races and nationalities are (commonly) understood to be human.

Wizardry in HP is something of a similar mutation, a genetic advantage that requires the presence of a gene that grants those powers as an innate capacity. Even Muggleborns are, I think, those with a dormant gene from somewhere down the family line.

This is why they are distinct from Muggles, or normal humans, and why such phrases as half-blood and pure-blood are used, again, not in the context of race or nationality, but of innate ability. Wizards are distinct from actual humans, so when those terms are used, it's meant in that context, since both wizards and Muggles can be of any 'race or nationality,' and yet are genetically distinct as separate species.

This is to say nothing of how dubious 'race' and nationality' are as constructs, in and of themselves. They are almost entirely political, as when you get right down to the accepted science of it, humans are basically the same all over the world, with only superficial variations.

 

Quick question (though the answer will not affect my theory much) - do they (canon) really mention Ichigo as being half- or quarter-Shinigami and the rest Human? Or Uryuu as half-Quincy half-Human? Do you have references from the manga? Or I could take a look if you can give me the general context where something of this kind had been said.

Now, I agree that Quincies are different from vanilla humans. To my view a Quincy is just another example of how you define races and nationalities, a construct to identify parts of a whole based on some characteristics (superficial or not is another debate) - in this case the characteristics being the power to manipulate reishi.

The only issue here is that the baseline is not being a (vanilla) human - but having a human-like soul. Vanilla people, Fullbringers, Quincies, Shinigami, even Hollows - all fall into this category; though Hollows being amalgamations of multiple souls are somewhat of an outlier.

So we probably have the same model for this.

 

Probably, I'd just heard what meev said repeated in other places, concerning Quincies being at least as distinct from humanity as the shinigami.

As far as sauce, a lot of this is still murky to me, and I was only arguing based off of what I understand. I'll try to find specific panels, but a lot of it is Ywch's reawakening and the whole situation with Ichigo's mother, needing a certain amount of energy to counterbalance the Hollow 'impurities' within her soul.

Ichigo gets something of an explanation from Old Man Zangetsu when he's with Oetsu as well, as to how his powers were divided.

I'll try to find them and post later.

 

Anyone who views the various soul types as if they're all different species has a flawed understanding of Bleach. Hollows are humans that have lost their hearts and are corrupted because of it. Shinigami are dead humans who have enough reiryoku to learn at the Shin'o academy. Fullbringers are humans that evolved hollow powers after their pregnant mothers were attacked in the womb. Orihime is a schoolgirl who's above average reiryoku and great desire for the power to protect her friends interacted with the nearby Hogyoku allowing her to manifest powers. The Quincy are human mediums created or descended from Yhwach and are mentioned as being the relatives of magic hunters who fought hollows long ago. Every human has some amount of reiryoku but most never get that to a level that allows them to see or interact with the spiritual world. Moving on.

Pure-blooded Quincy are believed to either be Yhwach's descendants or the descendants of the first Quincy Yhwach created. The rest are mixed-blooded and are either newly created Quincy or lack any significant Quincy ancestry.

http://onemangaforums.com/index.php?/topic/5241-bleach-chapter-565-discussion/page-12#entry598529

 

More like you have a flawed understanding. All are originally human yes, but they are distinct spiritual races. That is made clear several times, most notably and unarguably when Urahara outright describes how it works, and how each is needed to oppose each other to balance out an imploding soul because of them being opposites of each other.

This entire thing was started when someone posted a picture describing how Ichigo's nature happened and saying there were three because Quincy are human. I said that's not the case because it's not. Quincy are the opposite of Shinigami, human are the opposite of hollows. Spiritually they are different beings. There are humans, and there are three others that are not at all humans in any way. This is plainly stated by Urahara.

 

Edit: Lets take it in baby steps, shall we. There are no differences between Shibata and the dead girl at the start of the manga. The only reason Shibata couldn't return to his body is because he'd spent far too much time outside of it. From there we can tell that there are no differences between that girl and any normal citizen of Rukongai.

So what are the differences between a Shinigami and the average dead human. The only innate difference is the level of Reiryoku they have. This makes them need to eat whereas normal dead people only need to drink. This also gives them the chance to enter the academy. Once there they receive their Asauchi.

Asauchi are blank hollows shaped into swords so Shinigami will imprint their power on them. So the only natural difference between a human and a Shinigami are their reiryoku levels. Hollows are humans who lose their hearts and gain a great deal of power as a result. They hold monstrous shapes but once they reach their highest form of evolution regain a human shape.

Once Hollows are purified by a Shinigami they regain their hearts and pass on to Soul Society. So the only natural differences are the ability to access their powers and the loss of a heart. The differences between humans and fullbringers are a lot less extreme. Fullbringer are humans that came into contact with hollow Reiryoku while in the womb. They gained hollow powers without having to sacrifice their hearts as a result. These powers are able to be given away at the owners leisure or stolen by other fullbringers.

Finally we have reached the crux of this argument. The differences between a normal human and a Quincy are very simple. A Quincy is like a human that has a high enough spiritual power to interact with the spiritual world. An example would be Orihime before she gained her powers. The two differences being that they have the ability to absorb the Reishi in their environment and they lack hollow antibodies. You could easily view the antibody issue as a type of genetic disorder.

I'd view it more like different ethnicities than species.

 

All souls must undergo the soul burial unless some other means are provided, not just Hollows. I think Ichigo was able to bypass this because he already had shinigami powers that he'd inherited from Isshin.

You say that Quincies are "like" humans. So how does that not illustrate the point meev and I are making? The phrase "a quincy is like a human" automatically verifies the implication that there is some fundamental difference. Which is, as you say, that they are able to draw upon atmospheric reishi as a result of inborn powers. Which humans cannot do.

Different ethnicities are all human, with the same general capabilities. It's not like French people become shinigami and Brazillians are Quincy. Shinigami and Quincy powers transcend ethnicity on a fundamentally spiritual or genetic level, giving evolved humans of all ethnicities powers that regular humans simply do not possess.

Just like the phrase "once human" implies that they are no longer human.

EDIT: Here are some of the scans, I'll drudge up more as I go:

http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/535/8

So far, with just this panel, we have Urahara telling us that there are "normal souls," "shinigami souls," and "Hollow souls." Shinigami and Hollow souls are not Normal souls with powers, they are of an entirely different spiritual order, nature, and magnitude, based on the quantity and method of interaction with reishi.

http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/535/13
http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/535/14

And here you have him saying exactly what we have. Yes, Hollowification and the potential to become a Quincy or Shinigami are processes that act on normal souls, but these processes also fundamentally change the nature of the soul, so that in the end we are dealing with entirely different, even "opposite" spiritual beings.

Rukia says as much right at the beginning, when she tells Ichigo that Hollows are the inversion of a human soul, which possesses an inner heart, or power. The hollow empties itself, making a mask and monstrous body out of its heart and leaving a hole in place of the inner heart.

 

I get what you two are saying I just don't believe the differences are so extreme to label them as separate from humanity. Orihime is capable of rejecting fate but I wouldn't label her as anything but a schoolgirl. Shinigami without Asauchi aren't capable of much more than enhancing their bodies on top of kido. Quincy lacking soul-synthesized silver would only be able to use similar feats.

Each lacking the advancements made by their respective peoples leaves them little different than normal humans with high reiryoku.

 

Well, I posted this above:

And if you think about it, Urahara's description of Orihime and Chad's powers, that they are inborn powers brought out by interaction with Ichigo, is correct, then Ichigo's soul has been used in a way not unlike Ywch's.

EDIT: There's also this:

http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/536/17

Here, we see that because Ichigo's hollow powers, or "his hollow," which was a blank made up of the souls of shinigami, bound itself to his shinigami powers (inherited as a result of Isshin, who is now half-human, half-shinigami), Ichigo's training as a shinigami unleashes it too. But Ichigo's soul, as revealed by Ywch's imprint on it (his Quincy powers, received from his mother, along with his hollow), is a mix of human, shinigami (Isshin), hollow, and quincy (Masaki). His soul is therefore quarter-shinigami, quarter-hollow, quarter-human, and quarter-quincy, which means he as a spiritual being or entity is quarter-shingami, quarter-hollow, and so forth.

Generally, this is also why the "impure" Quincy were pwnt, either because they were partially human, or in Masaki's case, because they were part-Hollow.

Here's Isshin confirming what we said about Uryuu too:

http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/537/7

 

I certainly love the parallels.

I suppose you're right about all this. I used to believe it was a lot like comparing muggles and human wizards. One might be able to manipulate magic but in the end they're both still human. I guess that just doesn't quite fit here. :/