@ Gabrinth

It seems to me that the kind of relationship you speak of is mirrored in the Harry Ginny relationship. Although I don't see Ginny trying to make up.
@ Afro
If Ron is everything you say he is. Why did he go back to Harry and Hermione of his own volition? I think your also not factoring in the fact that out of the three of them Harry and Ron suffered the most at the hands of the horcrux.
Harry with his continued and no unrealistic doubt of Dumbledore and because he felt that the three of them were the only ones fighting.
Ron because of his doubts about his usefulness and lets face it Hermione liked Ron because of his loyalty towards her. And I think the liked Harry because if his hero complex.

 

Why did he come back? Because who is he without them? They're his only chance to actually have the recognition he desired within his own family, which, after Ginny became a famous Quidditch star and Harry and Hermione went on to save the world in his absence after he abandoned them, he'd never have gotten on his own.

Ron suffered with the Horcrux more than anyone else not because the Horcrux gave him those issues, but because he already had them.

Hermione liked Ron, I think, because she realized at some point that Harry wasn't very interested.

And far from growing up, it actually seems to me that Ron grows worse over the course of the series. What E.C. said about neuroses only becoming more tightly wound is true: over the course of the books, his loyalty, courage, and humility are often subsumed by the negative traits showcased in later events.

 

No, what I said was that the issues which Ron suffers from are of a different nature than Harry or Hermione. Harry suffers from emotional and psychological abuse. If you think anyone can just "grow out of that" you're foolish and ill-informed. Of course, I think that you were probably more focused on Hermione and Ron, at least I hope you were.

You're right, I was using the wrong terms here and trying to define it in a different way. I'll amend my previous statement to being passivity, rather than escapism. I was thinking more along the lines of Harry's strategy of "taking it" and then just getting out of the way, swallowing his anger and whatever else so that he can escape from a situation. But yes, I'll concede that passivity is the better word here.

That sounds great in a perfect world, but I don't see it. Hermione is vindictive in the moment, and will strike out in ways that would shut off most abused people quickly. OR, they'd fall into an abuser/victim relationship (not that she would actually be an abuser, but that their relationship would resemble such).

Examples: Hermione punching Draco (justified in the moment, but an example of her striking out). Hermione sicking birds on Ron. Hermione's treatment of Ron once he returns. Add to that her ability to be completely blind when she thinks she's right, backed up not just by emotion, but by an intellect that can rationalize better than most (she has higher reasoning skills than most, from the books, and higher reasoning = higher rationalizing ability), means that when she thinks she's right, there's no turning her away from it on either an intellectual or emotional level. Hence, SPEW.

Geez, sounds like I'm ragging on Hermione. I'm not, in fact, she's the type of woman that would be an excellent wife for any healthy male.

Harry isn't healthy. That's my point. Ron has issues, but in overall emotional health, because he doesn't have abuse issues and a whole host of other things that would come with the life he had, he's has a much firmer mental health foundation than Harry.

 

Yeah, uh, while I think that the Ron/Hermione relationship wouldn't be a healthy one because they have such diametrically opposing personalities, motives, and goals, (and because, let's face it, they have nothing in common,) it's not like Ron's the only one with problems.

Before book 6, I'd have said that, no questions asked, Harry and Hermione would make a great couple. But the Harry of the later books lacks the backbone he'd need to deal with Hermione's crusading. He'd suffer in silence, there'd be a break, Hermione would try desperately to figure out what went wrong (without asking Harry,) he'd finally mention it, and they'd be happy until the next time this happened. I don't know about divorce - they're friends above anything else, which is really the most stable basis for a relationship, and I think they might be able to move past it - but the martyr complex Harry gains in the last 2 books doesn't mesh well with Hermione's incessant drive to know everything about everyone.

To be fair, book 6 was abysmal, and I generally prefer to believe that it and DH don't exist. But if you want canon, then yeah, Harry/Hermione wouldn't necessarily work out perfectly. It certainly could, which is more than I can say about Ron/Hermione. But it's no guarantee.

 

Minor point I feel I need to interject, in relation to Ron feeling entitled to get large rewards for little effort... have you talked to teenage guys recently? A good 70% of us feel like this quite often. A friend of mine quite often fantasizes about being a billionaire because of a business he created (that he is yet to create or make any significant steps towards conceiving) and he is barely passing school. Guys tend to mature later than girls, and self motivation and self improvement are not often seen until a guy is in his mid to late teens.

It's natural for 14 year old Ron to be jealous that his friend, who is very rich, very famous, and (in his opinion) liked by everybody is now participating in an event which Ron wanted to get into but couldn't, which will only make him richer, more famous and liked by more people. Was it a stupid thing for him to do/say/be? Yes. 14 year old boys are stupid, and most guys would have reacted the same way.

As for the locket incident... come on... He's just found out his sister is in severe trouble, with information coming that "You wouldn't want another bad thing happening to the Weasleys" possibly implying that the rest of his family was also going through hell, and his best friends start (finally) planning what to do with something he thought had already been planned. He snaps, while wearing the Horcrux no less, and Harry snaps back (something a large number of people on here are quick to forget), and it escalates from there. He goes out and apparates away, which I would compare to going on a walk to try and calm down, gets attacked by people, and tries to return before finding out his best friend and girlfriend have vanished from where they were at, leaving him no clues as to where to find them.

As a 17 year old male without any inferiority complex issues, I would have done the same damn thing as him in that situation, same with the one above it as a 14 year old. Guys are dicks at 14. Wow. Ground-breaking information, isn't it.

As for which marriage would work out better... abuse victims like Harry hate confrontation. Hermione snapping at Harry, a very plausible situation, would result in him trying to avoid an argument and just increasing his levels of resentment/unhappiness. Abuse victims do not grow out of their problems, and Hermione doesn't strike me as the type to do so either.

Now, Hermione I can relate to more than the majority of other characters, as I believe so can the majority of DLP, as members here tend to have a higher level of intellect than on most other forums I have frequented in my time. But I have a friend, 6 years my senior, who resembles Hermione very much. Allow me to make a few small predictions as to Hermione's character.

Hermione grew up being taunted for enjoying reading and studying, and being a teachers pet. This caused her to read more, study more, and be more of a teacher's pet in the eyes of students, causing more resentment to her, and greater levels of abuse towards her, which set off the whole cycle again. This caused her to feel greater levels of disdain towards other, less successful, people. It caused her to become abrasive, stubborn, self centered and sense of self ridiculousness and it caused her to become quick to temper, while adding in her sense of unfairness, causing her to champion for the rights of those who have less and suffer more. Those who she can relate to, in her own mind, because of her own suffering. Now, there's a tangential topic available here, of Hermione thinking her own suffering is equal to those who have suffered more, a likely scenario, however that is, as mentioned, off topic. The other thing that she would have gained from this would be a huge respect, bordering on obsession, with authority figures.

Now, when the troll came about, she would have lost (most of) her bossy attitude, along with parts of her abrasiveness, as she felt that that was responsible for the situation she found herself in. However, the majority of the other characteristics remained, with the exception of the authority figures obsession, which peters out over several years. This scenario also birthed a strong sense of loyalty to her friends in her, along with a huge fear of losing the friendship.

These personality traits are the main ones that we see in Hermione, and can all be considered likely to have occurred in her formative years. There are other character traits that she shows throughout the books, however they are either small, or can be seen to be birthed from these previous character traits.

Harry and Hermione would be unlikely to work because of this. Hermione's character flaws are less flaws on top of the rest of her personality, like Ron's are, mostly, and are not flaws that are easily ironed out with maturity, like the remainder of Ron's problems are. They are the foundation for the majority of her world, and unless something ground breaking happens, it is unlikely to change her. She doesn't care about the opinion of the average person, or the people who she works with, because her childhood has taught her that being popular isn't everything, and if she has a few friends left, she'll be fine. This means, as long as she has Ron and Harry, she will remain very much the same as she was in DH. This is not necessarily a bad thing, and would help her become successful in business, and work.

However, when you're talking about marriage? Some of those things could be problems. Her sense of self-righteousness and her quick temper would mean that any relationship she was in in which the other party had a differing opinion on anything she considered somewhat significant (e.g. House Elves, Big News Court Cases, Finances, Children, Naming ext) would develop into an argument, with one of two solutions. A large argument, in which she never gives an inch, or the other party surrendering to her opinion, at least verbally, causing her to be more self-righteous.

If she was with Harry, the arguments would likely be the second type, Harry giving in in order to keep the peace. This would create greater levels of resentment in him towards Hermione, who would feel like nothing was wrong. This disparity of opinion would grow over time, with Harry not talking about it to anyone, and Hermione not noticing in the early stages when she could actually do something about it. She'd probably end up noticing when his resentment of her grew into actual dislike, however her attempts to get Harry to talk about it would be unfruitful and cause him greater annoyance at first, and later on would develop into huge arguments between the two of them. Harry would end up feeling so angry at Hermione, he would probably resort to some sort of vice to help him with it. The vice could be alcohol, drugs, sex or violence, among others, but they would not involve Hermione or anything that could remind him of her. Likely meaning alcohol or sex, with strangers, or people who he'd feel would outright hurt Hermione.

By the time Hermione and Harry were 30, I'd be predicting him being furious at her for everything, the two of them arguing over everything, to the point when Ron and Hermione's arguments in canon look like nothing, and Hermione is desperately trying to hold herself and Harry together, while everything, likely including her career, is falling apart, with Harry likely to be either drinking himself to an early grave, or getting action on the side with either complete strangers, or Cho, Ginny, Luna and other people who Hermione knows, likes, respects, or fears for her own security with Harry with. So Hermione's female friends and Harry's ex's, basically. If it was the case of him sleeping around and Hermione were to find out, she'd end up doing the same thing as him, ironically meaning that she'd be likely to be sleeping with Ron

Divorce would be likely before 40, unless Harry got some help with his own problems early on. I say this as someone who is currently watching this very thing happen. And it wouldn't be Hermione's fault, it is merely personality clashes with Harry that would lead to this, but they are deep personality issues.

Ron and Hermione on the other hand would have the first kind of argument, as Ron would be as stubborn as Hermione. Ironically, this would likely cause her to mellow out quite a bit, become a bit less judgmental and quick to temper, while gaining a greater sense of empathy for other people. Someone who stood up to her would cause her far greater realization of her own problems, and it would be a quick enough fix if caught early by her (by early, I mean before she turned 20 or so). Same with Ron, living with someone like Hermione would force him to either be a jealous prick who argues all the time, or make him a bit more understanding, a bit less harsh, a bit more self confident (the root problem of jealousy), and someone who maintains his friendship and marriage. If this happens early enough, the two of them would be a good couple who have a loud argument once in a while, but who love and care for each other a lot.

Frankly, Hermione and Ron is more likely to work out then Harry and Hermione. And this is coming from someone who openly dislikes the presence of Ron in any stories he reads. Hermione has, at best, a 10% chance of a successful relationship with Harry, and probably a 60% chance of a successful relationship with Ron. Harry and Hermione are just too different in their personalities, and they would end up hating each other by the end. Neither would end up successful in that type of relationship, in career or in love life, as the failed marriage would take up too much. Harry would need genuine help with his issues, and he doesn't strike me as the type to get it.

While constructing this, I found a few questions to ask. Here they are.

a) Has Hermione ever given any ground on any argument she has had in the books? As far as I can remember, every argument she has had she has ended up either right, or refusing to accept being wrong.

b) Has Ron ever actually betrayed Harry? I wouldn't consider the 7th year tent event, as it can be rationalized, and he attempted to return as quickly as possible. I'm not sure about 4th year, but when else has he been a 'bad' friend to Harry?

c) Why does everybody pounce on Ron for the 7th year thing? The majority of what happens, Hermione was doing too, and she got a free pass. The only difference was that Ron left, and couldn't get back in time to rejoin them the next morning. And I'd put that down to a combination of the Horcrux and bad luck (falling into the hands of the snatchers).

d) Why does Harry get a free pass in the argument with Ron? He just found out Ron's sister, his ex-girlfriend who he still has feelings for has been caught breaking school rules, and is being punished by taking a trip into a very dangerous area, with possibly greater ramifications, and his reaction is that a piece of metal he doesn't know where is or how to get is capable of doing something he needs.

e) Why is Hermione so liked on here? The majority of her faults are considered nothing by quite a few members on the board, who are quick to pounce on Ron's far fewer and far less severe faults.



tl:dr: Hermione and Ron is not the best couple ever, or the best couple for either of them in the series. But Harry and Hermione is much, much worse, and would be much more violate, and much more likely to fail.

 

The topic's honestly gotten a bit stale, in that we go in circles only to always arrive to the same conclusion: It was perhaps not the best start, but love, hard work, and the maturity that only comes from age can make it work.

More impressive, is the fact that you're a Seventh Year who is actually 17. Kudos.

 

I never liked H/G but I could accept it because cannon Harry is almost as pathetic with women as Severus (still carrying a torch for a girl that friendzoned him before Hogwarts even years after she is dead and gone) Snape. It's no wonder why the only girl cannon Harry could get was a BWL groupie. With cannon Harry out of the picture it wasn't surprising that Hermione would be paired up with the only other male left in the trio.

Now fanfiction Harry (someone who actually becomes a hero in the story rather than spend his whole life being nothing but Dumbledore's puppet) can be paired with any female in the series.

Because fanfic Harry can kick cannon Harry's butt any day.

 

For a forum so dissatisfied with Harry, there sure seems to be plenty of willingness to defend Ron.

 

I'd wager that a large part of it is that so many fanfiction authors despise Ron for dumb reasons. It's a natural counterbalance.

Sort of the same reason why a lot of people on DLP seem to heavily dislike Harry/Hermione, even more so than Ron/Hermione (which is ridiculous.) The latter relationship was likely to occur at some point, but they have so many traits that would harm the other's ambitions/goals that the relationship couldn't be stable without a fundamental shift in character for either of them, something that does not seem to occur at all throughout the series (well, at all for Ron. For Hermione, her character growth doesn't change the core parts of her that would clash with Ron.) Some people here don't seem to realize that "Love" isn't some sort of everlasting solution to an acrimonious relationship, and dies away rather quickly when you disagree with your current partner on everything from the proper use of your time to all of your interests.

Could Ron/Hermione work out? Sure, if you assume that both of them go into therapy for years, and somehow come out of it still with one another (instead of breaking up as their therapists would probably tell them to do.) They have some fundamental differences in character traits that would set them at one another too often for a stable relationship without it devolving into abuse.

 

No, it's because he's just a generic average guy, and most people don't hate that in a supporting character, they actively dislike it on the Hero, because the hero is supposed to be heroic. Harry and Ron are both generic average guys, people don't tend to object to that in their sidekicks, but the Hero is disappointing if he's like that.

Again, no. The consensus I've gotten over the years is that there is a split on DLP of about 40% of people hating (or any variant of dislike) Hermione, 40% not really caring about her, and about 20% really liking her character. There was a 'what do you think of canon Harry' thread made by Alexx a while back that displayed the majority of feelings people have of Hermione (along with Harry, but that was to be expected).

Some relationships actually start the same way as Hermione's does with Ron's, and they succeed because being together forces them both to change without any external help. This is not likely (at all) with Harry because of his psychological abuse at the Dursleys. This is established science.

Majority of us do actually get this. Thing is, change is likely in the situation you described. Ron would try more of the activities Hermione does, trying to see if he can enjoy them too, and vise versa. Then, they focus on that activity and focus quite a bit on it, while slowly branching out into other topics in the relationship, and finding more common ground, and then they're just like most couples. A few small issues, but none that can't be worked out.

See above for why this is mostly untrue. I will say that there is a fairly high chance it'd fail. I guessed at about 40% chance of failure. May be higher, may be lower, but if I was a betting man then I'd be putting my money on it working.

Small piece of advice, Gene. Research the topic, before you enter a forum debate on it. There's always some dick (like me) who knows more than an average person on the matter, and can see the fallacies in your thinking. Not your fault, most people have them. But most will resort to insulting you. I hope I've succeeded in not doing that here.

 

That's.. not at all the consensus I've run into in my time here. I've run into a large amount of varying opinions. But most of them seem to be a variant on 'Ron is a dumbass.' DLP is a forum of people who enjoy intelligence and learning and knowledge and nerdery. Ron is actively antagonistic to the most prominent nerd/geek figure in the series and is actively dismissive and insulting of those who value knowledge and learning.

Though you get this right about Harry.

Eh, most of what I saw in that thread (and I just read the majority of it). Was that Hermione was intelligent and dedicated. Perhaps with Genius level intellect, but not a genius-level grasp of magic like Dumbledore or Voldemort. And that during HBP she suddenly became a rancid bitch.

Also I find your numbers to be far off. There were a few vocal anti-Hermiones in that thread, but most people were either neutral towards her as a person or positive towards some of her traits (at least pre-HBP, but it's widely acknowledged that that book was terrible for her character and not consistent with her characterization during the rest of the series at all).

Also, from what I read in that thread (since you're the one who established it as metric for DLP's opinion on characters), Ron is a lazy jock moron with an average outlook and a fair moral center that is damaged by his emotional insecurity.

ROFL. It's a rare phenomenon to see a couple with such incredibly different valuation systems, goals, thought processes and values to be able to function well. People need to have common ground and things they share enjoyment in to do well in a relationship. Also, if your relationship 'forces' you to change something so incredibly fundamental as the above to work, it's probably not a good relationship.

When such relationships DO work well, it's generally because both people are emotionally mature and patient. Not something that ANYONE should EVER call Ron, and a label I would be somewhat dubious assigning to Hermione.

But just about any relationship counselor will tell you that if you want a relationship to work, you need to find/have common ground, lots and lots of it. Ron and Hermione's only common ground is Harry and a hate of Voldemort/Pureblood Bigotry.

I disagree heavily on how likely change is in the situation he described. Ron is a stubborn ass who has shown no enjoyment of the things Hermione does in seven years as her friend. What's more he is actively antagonistic towards the things she enjoys.

Lets not forget their propensity to insult and criticize each other when they get aggravated. JKR, terrible as she is at all things romance, thinks this is an indicator of 'sexual tension'. What a relationship counselor will tell you is that it's an indicator of a lack of respect in a relationship.

See above for why this is untrue. Ron and Hermione are not just 'uninterested' in each other's pursuits and goals, but actively antagonistic towards them and neither has shown any sign of budging in seven years of friendship and the highly flexible, volatile period of puberty/teenage years.

Small piece of advice. Don't attempt to come across as superior on a subject when your 'knowledge' on a subject is obviously biased towards supporting your own argument. Your 'superior knowledge' is not superior in any fashion and only makes you look like you're putting on airs.

P.S. I disagree heavily with your interpretation of Hermione/Ron and Hermione/Harry relationship a few posts up. Your 'interpretations' of the characters are blatantly skewed by your opinion that R/Hr is superior.

 

I, Zeitgeist, heartily believe in the following propositions:

a.) Ron-bashing is stupid, and despite his behaviour in Book 4/7, he is ultimately a likeable character who stuck by Harry and deserves a happy ending. He's immature, not evil. Ron stuck by Harry in CoS, risking his life, and stuck by him to enter the Department of Mysteries. That takes some courage.

b.) Hermione is an intelligent girl who was loyal to Harry in those key moments where Ron was unavailable to Harry. I also believe that she has more chemistry with Harry, at least in the films.

c.) This discussion of pairings is moot because this is Harry Potter, not Twilight. I certainly didn't start reading the books because I cared about Harry's love-life, and what's done is done. There's no point in flogging a dead horse, and as long as Harry isn't fucking something that completely non-canon and implausible (e.g. Dobby, Malfoy, Whooping Willow, etc.), I frankly don't care about the romances of the trio. Neither should you: it shouldn't be the main focus of the story.

Those are my three cents, I guess.

P.S. A lot of you are confusing DLP's dislike for Harmony fics for DLP's hatred of the actual pairing. Many DLPers are actually fans of Hermione and don't mind Harry/Hermione in theory. Our main issue is with the rabid Harmonians themselves and their twisted interpretation of that pairing, whereby Hermione wears the pants in the relationship and emasculates Harry. In canon, Hermione actually defers a lot to Harry, and their relationship is one that is more of an equal partnership as opposed to "Hermione tells Harry to do this/Harry does so without complaint".

Harmonians are often extremely contemptuous of other pairings; their holier-than-thou attitudes abrades most of DLP's patience, and it transfers onto their fics as well. Most H/Hr fics tend to exacerbate Hermione's bossiness and intelligence into some nagging Mother Theresa, written with a note of condescension to everybody who isn't a Harmonian.

I don't read Harmony for that very reason, and many DLPers don't either. However, don't construe that for actual hatred of the possibility of Harry and Hermione together. Separately, they're both great characters, at least in my opinion.

 

I actually feel like many of the people who hate this pairing are confusing their hatred for shitty fanfiction with their hatred of Harry and Hermione as a couple. I feel like fanfiction has really twisted Hermione's character from canon, and the fanfiction with the pairing is just so horribly written that it kind of starts to cloud the way you see the character and the pairing in general.

 

Pretty much. Despite a few people on DLP whom I know genuinely dislike Hermione, most of the anti-Harry/Hermione sentiment seems to be more aimed at Harmonian fics and Harmonian themselves, as opposed to the actual problems with the couple. It happens when we start confusing fanon for canon, as expected in a fanfiction community. Excepting Taure, I doubt that most of us, myself included, read the books religiously and regularly.

 

Probably true. For me, it's a genuine dislike of the couple. I think they work a whole lot better as a brother/sister relationship than a romantic interest.

 

It's one of those strange situations where I find it hard to get behind any pairing of canon characters.

Harry/Ginny is lazy writing and, thus, uninteresting and unsatisfying.
Ron/Hermione isn't the kind of relationship I want to see glorified in writing. If a friend/family member was in a relationship like this I would see it as a doomed mutual infatuation rather than a relationship.
Harry/Hermione is, while more 'realistic', boring and of very little literary merit really.
Harry/Ron is... wait, what?

And this is why the epilogue shouldn't have happened.

 

Speaking of that, was there ever any official word/interview from Rowling which addressed the Epilogue and why she made it? She could have easily just stopped a chapter earlier and let us make our own ending.
Or at least made the epilogue not that far back into the future, leaving room for our own imaginations.
Which is actually what most authors do...and we bitch at them when they do. They just can't win with us.

Also, the internet has been flooded with these lately.

 

I do find it odd that everyone knows so much about the Psychological effects of nonspecific childhood abuse, but no one seems to realize that Harry hardly shows any of these qualities throughout the books. He wasn't violent towards anyone that wasn't actively wishing to hurt him. He didn't have a problem learning to care or respecting the few decent authority figures in his life. He didn't even have particular problems in school, though he was no genius.

Harry was actually better than average emotionally for a teen, and he had a few exceptional qualities that made him a hero. He did not have any disorder related to abuse he may have suffered as a child.

Stop it. Pls