I've seen a couple of stories diverting from canon in the so called Harry/Draco duel in first year. And was thinking of messing around with the idea myself for a spell to see if it could help with my writers block.

But I'm having a little trouble believing how competent some of these people make Draco. Honestly, alot of them literally have first year Draco throwing around Stunning Charm's, Protego shields and even a few dark arts spells. Now I know people like to play on the idea of him learning some spells from his father before Hogwarts, but isn't that just a bit far when we find out in book 5 that a great deal of adults can't even cast a shield charm or disarming charm? Especially when the first year throwing them around is Draco Malfoy who isn't all that great magically speaking in the first place.

After that, I'm leery of even having Harry learn the disarming charm for the duel never mind the stunning charm or a shield charm. When it comes to using combat magic, Harry seems to have a natural talent above that of his peers. But is that really enough to justify him being able to learn those types of spells?

I know alot of authors would pull that magical core crap. But the so called magical core to me is a wizards center, where they reach for the power. I'm of the notion that wizards are just as much magic as they are flesh and blood. Their magic to me isn't some ball/core, they themselves are magic. The magic itself is bonded to their bodies from their souls, it's just that there are some souls that are made 'stronger' than others that can handle channeling more intense/powerful magic. That's how I explain off how Quirrel can use wandless magic, he can't. Voldemort and his own magic are the only thing allowing Quirrel to be able to do so.

...I'm rambling. Moving on, in your esteemed professional opinion guys how hard would it be for first year Harry to be able to learn some of these spells? They're honestly not very high level, but they'd be pretty damn impressive for any first year to be able to perform.

 

For the first year or two, best we've seen have been a few largely harmless jinxes. Teaching a first year Harry something like the Stunning Spell? I'd imagine it'd be similar to learning the Patronus Charm in third year, only less difficult. Perhaps a month or two of intense study? It's still a moderately advanced spell for a Hogwarts student, so it should be very difficult for someone new to magic to learn. Most realistically, near impossible before some years of studying magic under your belt.

 

I don't think it would be possible for anyone but a true prodigy.

First few years seem more about learning very basic magic, building a foundation of understanding in the different fields.

 

I like to think of the first few years as the equivalent of secondary school science classes. Mostly you're just learning theory, with a couple of interesting experiments along the way to demonstrate and keep you from getting too bored. That then builds the foundation of knowledge you need for college (OWLs) and university (NEWTs).

Obviously this goes forward a lot quicker than science because magic is more about the practice than theory, for the most part.

 

As far as canon goes, I see no problems with a 1st year learning the disarming charm. There were students from every year at the Dueling Club meeting in CoS, and that was the only spell taught.

When it comes to learning more advance magic such as the stunning spell, shield charm, pertrificus totalus, reducto, and the protean charm there is never a 1st year being taught these spells. In OotP Harry does teach Dennis Creevey, a 2nd year, all of these spells. So it IS canon that with weekly instruction from a competent instructor all of these spells can be grasped by a 2nd year in a 7 month period.

 

Hermione cast it at the end of the first year.

Edit: about early dueling in general. The first shield spell we see in the books is the Shield Charm, learnt by Harry during the fourth book. Afaik, it's also the only shield-type spell used by everyone except for Dumbledore and Voldemort. Or one of the two.

In any case, until shields come into play, it really doesn't matter how you incapacitate your opponent - I don't see much difference between using the Full Body-Bind Curse and the Stunning Charm or even the Disarming Charm when children. It might be different later in regards to the Body-Bind, when people can silent cast - or any time, in case of Disarming, if someone can hit you with your firsts, but if it's a "duel", then any of those three is realistically enough to end a fight. Stunning is the best, because it actually knocks the enemy unconscious, and has the shortest incantation, but the rest are good enough when you're young.

That's why I don't see much sense in the whole "teaching a bunch of dueling spells to a first year", because it's just unnecessary. One good shot is always enough, and the "general dueling spells" one might want to learn are just too advanced to be learnt by kids.

 

Depends on talent and practice, imo.
I don't have a problem with a particularly gifted or studious second year student pulling off a Patronus.

 

But how does it make sense?

The whole point is that it seems to be the one bit of magic Harry is honest-to-god actually good at. To do it before 3rd year seems absurd for anyone who isn't Dumbledore.

 

It impressed the hell out of the OWL graders as well...

 

Lupin said that most adults aren't capable of casting that spell.

 

Most people don't train for it for much of that year with someone who can cast it, with a boggart dementor. It is not unrealistic that someone put in Harry's position would be able to cast it as well.

 

Literally everyone's reaction in the book indicates that it is.

 

I was so focused on combing through OotP I lost sight of that, you're right of course. Hermione does use the full-body bind on Neville in first year.

To all those posting about how difficult a patronus is to produce, our only (reliable) source for that is Lupin and Bones. In PoA Lupin and Harry met once a week for 5 months to practice the patronus charm. After all that training Harry was still only able to produce the fog version of a patronus. Harry wasn't able to create a corporeal version for another 2 months.

2 years later in OotP Harry is able to teach 28 DA members the patronus charm in a single meeting. Only 2 members of the DA couldn't produce a corporeal patronus or the fog variant. Seamus Finnigan, who was attending his first DA meeting, was able to produce a corporeal patronus (though not for very long). Finnigan was never described as a prodigy, or even above average for a wizard.

Either Lupin is as bad an instructor as Umbridge, or JKR uses 'magical difficulty' to drive the plot in one book while totally ignoring it in another.

 

Hence, talent.
I still don't understand how Harry was good at that and sucky at almost everything else, I was so happy when I read that. I thought Harry was finally on his way to BAMF status.
Anyway, lets say there are two groups of spells; in one group you have those that are basically point wand and incant like a Levicorpus, a Petrificus Totalus. Anybody with a good degree of talent can pull those off, age notwithstanding. (Harry cast a Sectumsempra without even knowing what it was supposed to do). And OTOH, there's stuff like a Protean Charm or a Fidelius that probably require firm grounding in year 1-6 Charms before they can be done.
In summary, it might be possible for a fifth year to flip through a seventh year's Spellbook, locate the wand movement and incantation for a Summoning Charm or Fiendfyre and pull it off but it'd be impossible to do the same for a Protean Charm or human Transfiguration.

 

It wouldn't break my SOD for someone to cast the patronus in first or second year, as that charm seems to be far less based on theory and wandwork and far more based in having the right memory. I would find shielding charms far less believable at that young an age.

 

The problem is it needs to be a really good happy memory to draw upon, and it's presumed most eleven/twelve/thirteen year old children haven't yet experienced something like that.

 

Could also be argued that a young'ish child, in his/her innocence, would have a plethora of memories happy enough to trigger the spell, I guess. It's all relative isn't it?

 

The difference is that Harry was trying to learn it while being in close proximity to a Boggart!Dementor and not a brightly lit classroom surrounded by friends. He was also only 13 at the time.

In the DA session you're referring to only Cho and Hermione were shown to be able to get it right, Lavender and Neville couldn't get more then a little smoke, and Seamus apparently managed it for a second. I'm also not sure if it's the first lesson about it for anyone except Seamus. Harry mentioned they would start with the big stuff after the Christmas holidays, including Patronuses, and that lesson is the last one before Easter.

 

Dennis Creevey was only 12 when he learned the patronus charm. Luna, Ginny, and Colin Creevey were only 13 when they were taught. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

As for the training method (boggart vs. room of friendlies), it seems pretty obvious that a room full of friends is the better the way to LEARN the patronus charm. In no other case I can think of was a spell taught while students lives were threatened in such a way. Harry didn't practice the summoning charm with a dragon in the room, or a dragon-boggart. He learned and trained with the summoning charm in a room with a friend.

From chapter 27 of OotP

Neville and Luna were the only people mentioned who were not able to create any type on patronus, they were also the only people we see Harry giving instruction to at the end of the meeting. Finnigan was the only student I said was there for the first time, and he was able to create a corporeal patronus. What I said was that this was the first meeting where they were working on the patronus charm, which is true. In one lesson someone who had no extra defense training outside of class (that we're aware of), who is not a particularly gifted student, was able to create a corporeal patronus.

My point still stands that either Lupin is a horrible instructor, or JKR uses 'magical difficulty' to explain why something takes so long in one book and then totally nullifies the difficulty by having average students perform the same magic with relative ease.

 

I don't see any mention of Dennis managing the charm. There were only a few who managed it but no mention of who (except Hermione and Cho). Luna, Ginny and Colin would be 4th-years in OotP and thus 14, so Harry is still the only one who managed it at 13.

Might be debatable since anytime Harry would need to use a patronus would be when Dementors where near, so using this method from the beginning might make sense

Luna wasn't mentioned, that was Lavender. I'm not sure if it really is the first lesson on patronuses since it's Easter and Harry mentioned they would start on it after Christmas, but it's possible so I'll concede that. Seamus managed to create something for a moment but not long enough to conclude anything except that it's hairy, so I wouldn't call that creating a corporeal patronus.

Or perhaps it is more difficult as a 13-year old in the presence of Dementors, then for a 15-year old in a brightly lit room.