Which is precisely the point; why shit all over Murph for doing something in the same vein that half a dozen other characters have done - for similar reasons - and let the rest off?

I guess in the end it doesn't really matter, it's just a part of the process of Harry's ultimate character arc. A hero has to lose everything before he (or she) can truly come into his (or her) own.

(In which sense, Murph is actually doing Harry a favor, but that's a debate for another day.)

We can debate it a dozen different ways from as many perspectives; in the end, the individual reader will take what they want from a story or even just a passage. What I take from it is that Murph did what she felt was the best thing - maybe not the right thing, not in absolute terms - but the best option she had.

Remember that with Harry dead, someone had to step up and deal with the dangerous and important shit he left behind. He told her where the Swords were, for god's (or God's) sake, which was about as close to passing them on as we could have seen. And as said above, she was one of the only people to even notice them when they were just sitting in the corner, gathering dust. And given my argument above about Bob, I personally think the Swords are better off with her right now anyway.

A side-thought to all of this is that Harry has slowly been slipping away from 'mortal' for a while; while he started out with magic, and some knowledge outside the norm, his power has grown, his deal have become more complicated, and the metaphorical hats he's wearing have gotten progressively blacker. These days, Murphy is the only real vanilla left - the only real 'mortal' left on the home team - and I think that might make her the most appropriate guardian for the Swords, given that they are bog-standard humanity's best weapons against the supernatural.

Murph has no entanglements (even fewer with losing her job), doesn't owe anyone for any power she might have - alliances, yes, but no debts. And given the inverted relationship between power and choice in the Dresdenverse, she's just about the only one left we can trust to make her own, uninfluenced choices.

 

And as you seem to repeatedly miss, how good or bad Harry is isn't the issue. It's the fact that he's Mab's bitch. Maybe Murphy's keeping them in her basement, maybe she gave them to the Church, whatever--this isn't about taking them away from Harry, it's about taking them from Mab and someone who could make them vulnerable.

Because remember, they are supervulnerable. If you can touch them, all you have to do is use them dishonorably and bam, someone can unmake the damn things. Is Harry better then Murphy? Maybe yes, maybe no. But Murphy isn't the puppet of someone who could make that happen.

Ha. Hahahahaha. Are you fucking serious? Or are you just blind?

Harry's never been able to draw the lines with Mab, not really. Sometimes, he makes things harder for her, sure, but whenever Mab wants him to do anything, he does it. He did that every time Mab's really wanted anything. She may have to manipulate circumstances, she may have to wait a little while, but if there's anything we've learned from every single interaction between those characters, it is this.

Harry is Mab's bitch. He was her bitch in SK. He was her bitch in PG. He was her bitch in SmF. He was her bitch in Changes. He was her bitch in CD. He is her bitch in SG.

He's always able to draw the line if he's motivated enough? Are you fucking kidding or has Harry just misplaced his motivation?

1) She was allowed to see the swords, which most people can't.

2) She was intune with how and where the Swords should be used, as seen in that book.

3) She was possessed by an angel in Changes.

I'm thinking she might have some idea what she's doing, maybe.

Okay, for one thing, this ridiculous and untrue. See, the thing is, Harry treats Bob horribly. Bob was Harry's slave. Harry let Bob stay in that skull and in return for his invaluable aid every time Harry needed anything, Harry gave him essentially jack and shit. Bob has, at Harry's command, repeatedly endangered his life and his mind and has saved Harry's life dozens of times over, and his reward for all of that amounts to enough books to fill part of a shelf, maybe. That's, what, you figure a hundred dollars of books over two decades? Two hundred? That's diddly-fuck compared to what Bob is worth and what he's done for Harry.

Murphy's treating Bob as a tool? That's so fucking ironic it's hilarious. Murphy and Butters have treated Bob a thousand times better in the time they've had him then Harry's done in the entire time since he plucked him from Justin's burning house. Still probably not to the extent that he's worth, but they gave him TV, the internet, let him eat food, etc.

If you're argument is that Murphy is objectifying Harry's friend, your argument is stupid.

Also, it'd be really dangerous in Harry's hands, he lacks self-control, blah blah blah.

Okay. And what's Harry's excuse for all the incredibly moronic things he's done for things that were right from his point of view?

This is ridiculous, see above for why, and add in the fact that Murphy has repeatedly risked her life to save Harry's, knowingly given up her life's work to assist him, stuck by him through incredible danger, provided him with information without which he would have died, helped him keep perspective when he was falling apart, and more.

Honestly, this stupid argument is reminding me of the Ron hate and about how he's a horrible friend after getting upset and jealous in GoF, because everyone seems to forget what he did in the previous books, like sacrifice himself in the chess game and stand on a broken leg to put himself between Harry and a mass-murderer.

When your friends do that on a regular basis, you don't get to complain when they're bitchy once a year.

 

Ryuugi. There's no need to be rude about this just because we disagree.

And no, it's not that "Whenever Mab wants him to do something, he does it."

She has to be very careful of what she makes him do, and how. Because she knows that if she crosses his line, she'll have wasted a perfectly good tool. If Mab's orders were "Kill Murphy" do you really think he would've done it?

She wants him to cooperate with

Spoiler

Nicodemus

in Skin Game and Harry refuses. That is why she provides him with further motivation. It's not like any of the things she has made him do are things he wouldn't have done anyways.

If Mab tells Harry to, for example, abuse the swords, he'd tell her to fuck off. And I think Jon made a pretty good point about Bob being Harry's friend. She has even less right to take him than the swords.

About Harry keeping him trapped. Well, need I remind you what happens when he's let loose? Causes orgies and shit.

 

It's not really a disagreement. You're just wrong or else forgetting everything.

It really kind of is.

No, on account of the fact that that was one of the things Harry worked into his contract. And you might want to, oh, read the SG preview again because to quote Mab:

False. Harry tries to refuse and Mab just stares at him in amusement and then reminds him that he's her bitch. Reread the stuff that's out.

No. She reminded that if he did not obey, he'd regret it forever as would everyone he ever loved.

Uhhhh, if we ignore literally everything she's made him do, sure. SK, PG, SmF, CD, and SG all serve as neon signs reminding that you're completely wrong.

You think so? Because evidence suggests she's pretty good at making him do shit he doesn't want to. And if he said no now--and if Mab had asked him to destroy the swords instead of helping Nicodemus with the same threat, I'm honestly not sure what he'd have done--then what about in a year? In two years or five? I don't think Murphy was worried he'd destroy the swords the day she gave him that speech. Down the line?

Since you didn't seem to read it, I'll quote this again:

Harry treats Bob like shit, frequently forcing him to work in hostile conditions (daylight), do dirty work for no benefit (DM and BR being obvious examples, but also all his info), disregard his wishes (DB especially but also forcing him to work in the sun, forcing him to awaken at unreasonable hours, generally un- or underpaid labor, general mistreatment, reckless endangerment, threats, etc.

Is Bob a friend to Harry? Sure, he helped out in Changes, Ghost Story, Dead Beat, and boatload of other places when he didn't have to, saving Harry's life each time. Bob is a great friend to Harry. In turn, Harry considers Bob a friend, too.

But he's a horrible friend to Bob. A truly awful friend.

Yes, like he did with Butters.

Wait, except, no. Because Butters wasn't stupid. Yeah, Bob has no moral compass and can easily do bad things when let out--but he does obey contracts and orders. Butters made him agree to some terms before giving Bob his body and letting him simply enjoy himself eating lots of good food, because that was a precaution that was logical and safe for Butters and others. Butters did that for Bob, however, with the terms there only to protect people; he let Bob enjoy good food on multiple occasions, went out of his way to help Bob connect to the Internet and Television so he wouldn't just be bored in his skull,

Harry doesn't do that. Harry just locks him the fuck up all the time, wakes him up whenever he needs something, lets him out very rarely to do menial labor, and shoves him back in with nothing but very occasional payments in smutty works of fiction. Butter's gave him the internet and all it's glory with means he's provided roughly, oh, five billion times the porn to Bob that Harry ever has, even ignoring everything else he's done for him.

If we're talking about who deserves Bob, Butters curbstomps Harry in that regard.

 

I absolutely agree with you on pretty much everything you say here, but I do have to point something out in response to this:

You're treating Bob like he is/thinks like a human. Stop that, he doesn't. He's a fundamentally alien being, and being locked away in his skull all the time doesn't bother him in the slightest. None of the instances you bring up of Dresden mistreating him even seem to register with Bob. He doesn't give a shit about any of that. Dresden's treatment of him was perfectly fine and in-keeping with how one treats spirits. Bob wasn't in any way bothered by it.

It rings kinda hollow to go on about how poorly Dresden treated him when he doesn't give a flying fuck about any of it.

Now, one can argue that Dresden should have treated him like a human anyway, but that's an entirely different debate.

 

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Murphy, but I have to agree with Ryuugi, he curbstomped the argument in favor of her, and it's quite obviously Jim agrees with her POV. And yes, she fucked her over in some aspect, like EVERY one, most of then multiple times, except Michael. All of the women he meets seems to take pleasure in fucking him over again and again, in the worst meaning.

Now I disagree with Ryuugi about Bob, Agayek said everything I had to say, except that i'm sure that treating Bob like a human isn't good for you, specially for powerfull wizard like Dresden, really compare taking over Harry to taking over Butters. You can't. Harry wasn't bff, but from what we see of supernatural beings, he was a nice guy to Bob. In a way.

 

Actually, you're wrong. While he isn't human, he can certainly respond in ways that are, if not identical, exceptionally similar. He gets angry, gets scared, desires things. But most notably, he wants out.

And yes, he does want out. Being locked up in there all the time isn't something he enjoys. Any time he gets the chance, he asks to be let out, to experience and enjoy things. In GS, he referred to it as 'a golden cage' but also remarked that it was 'still a cage.' Further, the way Harry uses him has repeatedly bothered Bob in the story and he's shown anger at and exhaustion with Harry many times, as well as a desire to be released at least in return for service.

That stuff does register with him and he does give a shit.

But I was mainly looking at it from the perspective of Harry's treatment of him, because remember, this whole thing started with someone accusing Murphy of treating Bob as just a tool, not a person, when he was Harry's friend. I rolled my eyes so hard they nearly turned into helicopters and flew out of my head so I had to comment on it.

And again, look to Butters. I'm not saying no caution is warranted--Bob pretty much lacks a moral compass--but he does obey orders and he does abide by contracts. He has to, in fact, as was brought up a few times, and needs to obey conditions put on his release from the skull. A decent contract would remove the dangers at least long enough for Harry to eat a stake or drink a beer or something. At the very least, some firm instructs would let him browse the internet safely.

Which is why this argument falls flat. You can say 'he was a nice guy to Bob. In a way.' But he really wasn't. Butters was a nice guy in a way, because he was also cautious and respectful of the dangers. Harry was just a dick.

And yes, Harry was nicer then most supernatural beings would have been. As most supernatural beings lack free will and are enormous douchebags besides whereas Harry can choose to act as he will and isn't supposed to be an asshole, generally.

 

Harry's a victim of his upbringing in that regard. Justin used Bob as an advisor, likely not even giving him a name, so Harry does the same. Hell that's probably how 90% of the supernatural community treat spirits, especially spirits of knowledge.

Also, think of the risks I'd Butters' approach to Bob would work if he wasn't obsessed with sex. Imagine if Bob was more like his self under Kemmler. Because that's the risk you take with spirits you're not intimately familiar with.

 

Murphy gave Bob, a highly dangerous magical entity to a Muggle*.

What if Butters once, just once, inadvertently caused Bob to revert to the Kremmler self like Harry accidentally made him do once. Butters is not capable or knowledgeable enough of the magical world to be in possession of Bob.

Harry held back knowledge of the magical world from Murphy and other multiple times, and people bring that up as a point against Harry. But the fact is, Harry was right to do it. Maybe not every single time in exactly the way he did it, but it has apparently been shown time and time again in history, that muggles* and magical entities dont mix well.

 

1) Bob cannot do that as of the time he was in Butters possession.

2) Even when he's Evil Bob, he has to obey the orders of his owner, which is how Harry survived him, not because of any magic.

3) If you accidentally made him evil*, you can order him to go back to the way he was, too.

4) Butters knows about that stuff.

*How do you do something like that on accident? Note how hard Bob tried to ward Harry off from doing it.

Uh...no it hasn't? At all? Pretty much every example has informed muggles doing pretty damn well for themselves.

 

1) Not in that way, but we didnt know he could go all mini-Kremmler before he did, there might be multiple ways to missfire Bob.

2) But Harry has experience and knowledge of magic that lets him evaluate situations in a way Butters carnt. Butters might not know that Bobs put on a Black Hat and is about to kill him until its to late since he doesnt know or cant sense the warning signs.

3) Not if your already dead.

4) Butters know some, of what Bobs told him. Harry has decades of experience and is intune with magic.

Murphy has been mind raped and bitch slapped across Chicago mutliple times. That would not have happened if Harry hadnt of pulled her deeper and deeper in the world of Magic. Mallone, Carmichael and several of SI.

 

Errr no she didnt, for all intents and purposes she reminded him that "Hey through no fault of my own your heads going to explode very shortly, I and only I can make that stop if you do what I want." She made no threats to him or to his loved ones, the consequences that were mentioned were simply the aformentioned headsplosion and what might occur should Harry be really permanently dead. You make it sound a lot different than it went down.

 

Except that there was no misfire. Bob told Harry about it when pressed, warned him of the dangers, tried to talk him out of it, and pressed on anyway. And it was still only dangerous because Harry let Bob out of the skull.

That's pretty easy to avoid.

Did you see Evil Bob? He didn't exactly scream subtle. To say nothing of the fact that he has to be given permission to leave the skull.

But you can do it before you die, which is how Harry survived.

Not really relavent. He just needs to know not to push the self-destruct, which Bob has thankfully surrounded with helpful 'DO NOT PUSH' signs.

Um, no. That is not what happened. That is, in fact, the opposite of what happened. In those situations--minus Malone--they ran into those dangers because of what Harry didn't tell them.

Might want to read that scene again. Note what the Parasite will do to all of Harry's loved ones. Mab was going to keep him from Molly and from Demonreach. Would she have pulled the trigger? No--as a Faerie Queen, she literally can't. But if he didn't obey her, the events she'd set in motion would have killed everyone he loved. That was not an accidental development.

 

You are ignoring the obvious choice Harry has.

If the Parasite hatches from Harrys head, it will kill everyone Harry loves.

Mab is the only one who can arrange for its removal.

Therefore you argue that Harry has to obey Mab, no matter what, even if he ordered Harry to say hand over the Swords to Mab, and if he does not his loved ones (such as little Maggie) die.

But there is the obvious choice Harry has left. If Harrys head no longer exists, there won't be a parasite left to hatch. Harry could just get his gun and blow up his brains, including the parasite. No loved ones die that way, just Harry.

Not a very good option to be sure, but it IS an option, and one Harry has been open to before if the alternative is becoming a total monster. And I think that would be the option Harry would choose, if Mab tried to force Harry into doing something that went so far against Harrys morals such as destroying the swords or murdering total innocents or such.

Even with the parasite threat, it seems that a major reason Harry ultimately accepts the job Mab wants him to do, is because he realises that Mab wants Nicodemus dead too and this is a plot to arrange that, a motive Harry fully agrees with.

As for Bob, while Bob knows a lot, I tend to think Mab knows a lot more, and Bob would not be all THAT valuable to Mab.

 

He's not valuable at all to her, he's dangerous. And thanks for writing down what I couldn't be arsed to write down myself.

 

Whether suicide would work or not is questionable for several reasons--we're talking about a magic lifeform, bare minimum, and apparently one dangerous enough to be locked up in Demonreach. Given that and the fact that upon hatching it'll apparently be big enough to kill Harry's loved ones, pulling the trigger is quite possibly not going to work. I mean, obviously Harry's death won't kill it, since it's going to kill him and it's three days from birth anyway.

Regardless, you act like Mab couldn't keep Harry alive specifically to let it hatch. She almost certainly would.

Also, false--Mab doesn't tell him to backstab Nicodemus until after he's already beaten, if you recall.

As for Bob--there you're just flat-out wrong. Mab knows a lot, yes--probably more than Bob, in a numerical sense. But it's what Bob knows that makes him valuable, because they can and do know different things. More to the point, it's not about his value to Mab--it's his value to Mab when in the hands and control of Harry.

 

Not to mention that Bob is free to tell Harry a great deal more than Mab. So yeah, he's useful.

 

That too, yeah. It would literally cause Mab great physical pain to give a straight answer, going by the Ladies. Bob, meanwhile, can give you a recipe for a potion, the formula for a spell, a list of everything he knows about a monster, help you with your enchanting, one after another, with no repercussions to himself whatsoever--and he's generally willing to do so.

Mab probably knows more, but getting it out of her would be like pulling teeth out through your asshole.

 

Dangerous enough that it needs to be trapped in Demonreach? Where did you get that? Demonreach can force its influence down, but nowhere is it said that the parasite is anywhere close to being as bad as the immortal gods trapped on the island. The whole point of Demonreach is for truly unkillable entities, while Molly is apparently capable of killing the parasite. Or did I miss something? Quote?

As for killing it, its still inside Harrys head, which is why Molly is needed. Molly is the mental expert on poking inside peoples brains. In three days, the creature is ready to hatch. Right now, it still needs Harry and lives inside Harrys brain. If Harry destroys his brain right NOW, the creature is also destroyed. If a pregnant mother dies because someone shoots her stomach with a shotgun, the baby won't live, even if the baby would have been born 3 days from that time. If the parasite was strong enough already, it would have escaped Harrys head by now.

But even if you ignore all of that, Harry could simply give Demonreach orders to capture and imprison the parasite the moment it appears. Or heck, even seal himself inside crystal the way that other guy did.

Heck, Harry could just commit suicide through a Soulfire Death Curse, with the parasite as the target if it looked like there was no other option. I simply don't buy the idea that the parasite could somehow survive if Harry truly decided to end his life. Not without some really solid proof that it could.

Unlikely she could keep Harry alive if he totally destroyed his brain. It took Mab, the parasite and Demonreach working together to heal a far less serious wound. Total destruction of the head. Yeah, no. Besides, its unlikely she would bother even, since there would be no point to it anymore.

Not to mention that on the island, Harry wields greater power than she does. Harry could just give Demonreach standing orders to capture Mab if she enters the island, and then shoot himself.

Harry was going along with it yes, but very reluctanctly and was strongly arguing against Mab in the elevator. If Mab had not revealed her true motives, Harry would probably have done his best to screw things over (which is probably why Mab told her motives, since she knows Harry). Still, I acknowledge this point.

Its true that Bob is probably usefull for Harry and by extension Mab, in the sense that without Bob he would constantly have to harass Mab or someone with questions that he can now ask Mab. It was even implied by Harry that Mab has known about Bob and that Bob knows how to kill immortals all along. Harry was very likely right that Mab intended for Bob to tell Harry how to kill Maeve for good.

Beyond that however, odds are Bob does not know much of value that Mab either does not also know, or cannot find out easily enough.

And Mab CAN and HAS told Harry straight truths when it suits her. There is nothing to suggest that Mab is pained by speaking the truth. She just generally does not, if it does not benefit her. For example, she had no trouble speaking truths about Uriel or after Molly became a lady. If Harry NEEDED specific knowledge to succeed and had no way of getting it on his own, then Mab would obviously tell that information to him. Because Mab is not stupid.

 

I think the 'pains her' part came from Summer Knight when Harry asked her if she killed the summer knight. The first two times she answers truthfully yet vague, it is only when he asks the third time that she is forced to answer directly.