Power? The realm?

 

How is that being an asshat? Sansa didn't want to marry Tyrion and not kneeling was the only way she knew how to protest her marriage. For a character who was outwardly passive for the first three books, not kneeling was an incredibly brave thing to do.

 

Ehhh. The only one she was really hurting with that protest was Tyrion, who was one of the only people left in Kings Landing to actually treat her decently.

 

But it was done to Tyrion, therefore it was a crime.

But the attitude you see above is why it was changed.No matter how many times you say something like this it doesn't matter. A significant portion of the fandom considers Sansa an asshat for it, even when they have her POV where she explains quite clearly why.

D&D simply took the easy way out. That's their MO imo. Things like the good guys dying? They're willing to do it because it's necessary for the plot and shocking (like how a video of some natural disaster on the news is). Making people more grey? Nah (except Jaime for some reason). It's a hilarious little double standard At the end of the day Dinklage!Tyrion is extremely well-liked, it just wouldn't end well.

 

I never claimed that it was a crime. I claimed that it was poorly thought-out on her part, as all it did was provide some amusement for the people she was trying to spite, and suffering for the man that was at least attempting to be civil about the whole forced marriage thing.

E: Or were you referencing your own line? If so, my bad.

 

So what? Sansa was basically brought to her wedding blindfolded and forcibly married off. She wasn't thinking of Tyrion, she was horrified at what was happening to her. It didn't matter if it was Tyrion, Sansa was going to protest in whatever subtle way she could find.

 

Most of people dislike Sansa because her stupid infatuation got her father killed. Not entirely her fault, but she had a helping hand in it. I mean, she ought to have learned something about the Lannisters when Cersei ordered/wanted her direwolf killed, even though it wasn't the one that attacked Joffrey, but the silly bint persisted in her idiocy.

Yes, yes, she was a child, but you'd think that growing up in the North would have prevented her from believing that life was a song of brave, just and handsome knights and fair maidens to be rescued from whatever distress they found themselves in. I mean, the North doesn't even have knights (not counting the Manderlys, but aside from them I can't remember any other), as those have to be believers in the Seven rather than the old gods. In the end, there's only Catelyn to blame and her foolish southron ways.

 

No, that's exactly how she was raised. Taught to believe in the deeds of heroes of lore and basically encouraged to be a sheltered 'girl'.

That was the whole point, wasn't it?

Still I hated her ever since the trip to KL.

 

I know that's how she was raised, but would have Ned raised her that way? I mean, did the other northern lords even employ Septas for their children?

In the end, her cuntiness could be excused to a certain point. And then she blamed Arya later on for Lady getting killed. Had she told the truth it could have been all avoided. Funny though, you'd have thought that was something that would have been ingrained in her from very early on.

 

I dunno, I'm not pretending to be a Sansa expert, but AFAIK, the septas basically raised her to be a wife, and given that she bought into that (unlike Arya) was probably pampered and hugely naive.

Basically, just because I hate her doesn't mean i don't buy her 'origin'. I do.

 

What gave you this impression? Quite frankly I think people give the northmen too much credit. It's a cold land. It's not Salusa Secundus.Yet people talk about these oh-so-tough northern Sardaukar .That was specifically how she was raised. She is after all a sheltered child of a noble as strong and sheltered as Ned Stark.

She stayed in the most secure seat in the North. What exactly was supposed to challenge her worldview? Raiders? Wars? Nonsense. Her parents and society set out to make her into the girl we saw and they succeeded.

Except Ned did raise her that way. It was his choice to allow it to happen. He has no one to blame but himself.

Not to mention that there was almost no reason for her to be raised another way. Women like Arya and Brienne are few and far between. And note that Arya got away with it because people sought to help them on their path while Sansa gravitated to her mother. Arya had her sword made in secret by Jon, Ned got her lessons. A Nightswatchmen helped her escape and a Faceless Man got her kills. Sansa didn't have that by the end of GoT.

Right,and then have Joff rip her clothes apart in what is quite clearly a sexual threat? That was the way she chose to do it. I don't really think that the situations with her siblings are comparable since none of them were in that position. Sansa, while there saw an opportunity to tell people to go fuck themselves, and she took it.

Tyrion is not "taking advantage" of her insofar as he likes to think of himself as a good guy. At the end of the day he will still inherit Winterfell. He will still have to fuck- I mean, rape her at some point. For all his talk there's a reason for the marriage. And while he later shows that he won't you can understand why Sansa isn't so nice about it. Besides, it's not just about him; it's the one thing she can do instead of just agreeing to everything (like Tyrion marrying her, I love how he expected her to make a choice) to avoid being hurt.

 

Delurking in process...

Compare the songs and stories they were fed.

Bran was brought up on stories by Old Nan. Stories about children freezing to death. Monsters from beyond the Wall. Wildling invasions.

Sansa had Septa Mordane and songs about Joncquil..., she was indoctrinated to be a witless womb and an instrument of her husband's will. Arya resisted and outright ridiculed her education while Sansa swallowed it all and asked for more.

And yeah, there was a septa in Winterfell which is tantamount to bringing a nun to Qatar household. (ok, maybe not that bad but you get what I want to convey here)

 

Old Nan's stories that ended with a shining savior coming and saving the world? For that matter, I think you give too much credit to the stories of an old eccentric.

 

Wasn't that just the one story about about ending the Long Night? Even the one about Bael the Bard ended in patricide. Yeah, the Starks had won, but it ended with the lord Stark of that time killing his father, Bael the Bard who was The King Beyond The Wall.

Yes, they are just stories told by an old crone, but they show the difference between South and North.

In North you had stories like the one about the Rat Cook, Bael the Bard(kidnapping, rape and patricide), and other stories like the one in which mothers snuffed their babes to spare them the suffering of slow death via starvation.

On the other hand we have South where stories are brimming with flowers, valor, great deeds, and happy endings. Not a bad thing in and on itself. I would rather hear about victories and gallant knights than about infanticide.
Northern stories are about survival, not happy endings. It's a culture thing but one the does good job of depicting all the differences between North and South.

To reiterate, Sansa didn't choose to be the way she was in GoT. She was cultivated, encouraged and raised to be that way.

 

How do you know that?

Where is it ever said that the South doesn't have its own grim fairy tales?

 

Because we haven't heard about one so far.

The two closest that would fit 'grim' criteria is the one Catelyn tells Robb when they ride for the Twins. (Mud King or something in that vein, I don't remember it all that well and I don't remember if it was about treason or cowardice.) The second one that could fit is the Dance of the Dragons, the ballads sung by two singers.

On the other hand we read about a lot of songs popular in the South.

Hammer and Anvil(about King Maekar and Baelor Breakspear and their victory)
Bear and the Maiden Fair
Joncquil and ...
Then there's the one about Edmure Tully's 'The Floppy Fish'.

It's a theme we saw so far. South prefers lighter tones in their songs, ballads, tales. North on the other hand likes its martyrology(It's a ratio thing and what public would prefer to hear about, valor vs not so nice things, though, most Northern songs/tales are told from Bran's POV and he has a preference for bleak tales).

EDIT: Songs about Aemon Dragonknight could classify as tragic. Then, there is The Rains of Castamere and that's grim and somber. So yeah, it's not absolute.

 

What's the name of that one song about a girl who goes to join the Night's Watch and gets raped and murdered in Nightfort when she's found out?

 

Brave Danny Flint