I'm trying to give Sloth the benefit of the doubt...That's why this is an argument. We need to sleep now. We have time to readjust and if you think I'm derping then go Atum and your second choice after that. I won't be offended. It's a game

---------- Post automerged at 02:18 ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 ----------

No one should be convinced by a person half awake without some EXTREME thought into it. Reread my posts. Let Sloth's and my words be equal. Hell I'm almost leaning towards an Atum lynch tomorrow just as a sanity verification regardless of how strong I am over Sloth. I need to sleep though.

 

What part of it persuaded you exactly?

Longer Sloth post will come sometime today, already posted the short version though. What did you think of it? Which part do you disagree with?

 

@Rubicon where is your short Sloth?

 

1634

/10chars

 

Oh hey wow, look at the time, I'm so very sleepy. See you tomorrow!

 

Motion passes at half quota. I'm out ya'll.

 

Sloth: Why do you think you're still alive?

---------- Post automerged at 12:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------

One thing I did just notice, before I go to sleep:

Why would you?

 

@Mathblade

K. Waiting, then. You'll be here in the evening, right?

? I got the impression you were saying Atum was being framed from the beginning. If I'm wrong, you need to explain your theories better.
D1, everyone but Ika, Dermon, and soft!Citrus had him as Null, the first three had him as Town.
D2, everyone had him as Town (I believe the Maiden post was a big reason why), except Citrus who saw him as null-to-lean!town. Titus was especially vocal about it.
D3 is when people started questioning him, Delphine pressed him, I started bringing up my suspicions on my first post, you made a case for lean!scum on him, and Citrus left pointing at him and two others (in that order). Delphine later changed her mind and Rubicon kept having him as Town though he's yet to give a case why. Snow's stance hasn't been clear on the whole thing. -__-
That's how it's progressed. That's what I meant.

I don't even understand what you're trying to say here--that Atum was trying to frame me for the NKs? You think there's obvious reasons for the NKs to have been my work?
You've stated what you think would be the 'reasoning' for scum!me to carry out the NKs. I've told you flat out why those reasons are either so weak they might as well not be reasons at all, assumptions you have no basis to assume, or so broad and bizarre they could apply to basically anyone in this game. You don't have anything pointing decisively at me there, so where would the frame be?

Ok, I'm going to be honest: I'm glad that you're willing to at least be open to the idea you're wrong and think we could talk about it.
However, I don't get quite get this. You think I'm scum. You think if I'm not scum, Rubicon has to be. You're saying you're willing to lynch Atum toDay, so that if he flips Town, you lynch me tomorrow. Does Atum flipping Town make your suspicion on Rubicon null and void or something?

...You're basically admitting here you're not bothering to read my cases. -__-
I made a case in 1630, which you reply to in 1631, ignoring all your arguments just to be dramatic and say "well I'm totes done with you too!" Which you couldn't have been able to reply to unless you read it...and apparently nothing else, because when I continued to press you on it on 1641, you claimed you had just seen the post in 1642.

--
@Snowvon

Yeah. No.
Snowvon, the person that screams the loudest is not right. That's not how it works.
She's persuading you, fine. What is she saying that makes sense? Which arguments? How have my counters not explained them away?
This response is evasive and it feels like you're trying to push my mislynch without saying anything solid.

That's exactly why I'm asking you for a read. You do have a reason to suspect him more than Atum, right?
Or is Paranoia enough to bump him up?

It was #1532. Here's the specific section:

Thoughts? Also, I take it you haven't read my NK analysis either?

(At what point did not reading posts and arguments stop being so much a scumtell that a lot of players now seem to be comfortable doing it? -__-)

Say what? My post's already on him and my stance has been unwavering all Day. What else are you expecting? Explain.

...Holy hell, I get it was late, but the timing of this escape.

--
@Rubicon

I've been wondering that myself: Why are Mathblade and I alive, when we've been Townread sort of consistently? It goes back to why they'd hit Terraine, or Titus.

Lyrium and Delphine are basically the only two kills that made sense, taking out two nigh-conf!Towns (and the Seer, possibly purposefully.)
They took out a strong player on Titus, but she wasn't being Townread strongly...they took out a good ML target in TerRaine.
You brought up that the NKs could just be random, but I disagree, I think there's something to them.

Lyrium was a smart kill. Titus, not as much...I'm thinking there may have been some emotion behind it, maybe fear, maybe annoyance (WIFOM is sort of a possibilty, buy why?). TerRaine...in trying to figure out TerRaine, I came up with my NK analysis--any thoughts of it?

-One theory could be that they planned to leave heavily townread people make it towards the end to cast doubt on them. Doesn't work too much, though there was doubt on you, there really wasn't much on me until Mathblade inexplicably decided I was scum due to Dermon's flip.
-Another is that the scum is a heavily townread player and is leaving others alive to hide among them. This actually made me wonder about Mathblade, and I've been trying to find something to validate it. Nothing so far, seems too complex a gambit for most of us to try pulling off.
-This one, I really don't like, but it's possible I'm still around because all my theories are wrong and I'm not a big threat to go to the Endgame, much like what was happening on WIFOM. I have no reason to think so, but the possibility is there.

As for last Night, it's obvious why I (or Mathblade) wasn't hit:
A: Delphine's basically conf!Town, so of course she'd be hit this close to the end.
B: Why kill me? Why kill Mathblade? Let us both go on so she can focus entirely on me and hopefully I focus entirely on defending myself (this is part of why I haven't bothered to do so).

Either way, it's clear they're not deciding players based on them being townread.

Why wouldn't I? Dermon/mbond were more or less dead weights, and in a scum!me scenario, I could sacrifice them for the towncred, especially once the suspicion started growing D3 (thanks to Delphine), and even more especially if Riley warned the scum partner that a modkill was coming (presumably, he would have).
Instead I've been saying they're almost 100% null and we should be focusing on players we can read and press, and push for a modkill if needed. Come to think of it, I'm surprised no one's brought that up since it tentatively makes it look like i'm protecting him if you only look at it from the surface.

Anyway, moving on to that train of thought, why didn't the partner bus him on the logic I have?
Best reason I can come up with is a cautious (possibly newbie) scum mindset, trying not to draw attention, stay back and hope for the best.
Again, we turn to Atum's play. Possibly yours too, since I'm not sure if you play a cautious scumgame.
As for me, whatever else you can call me, you can't call me cautious or not in the forefront of the game.


There, I've answered your questions. When do you address everything I've been bringing up against you?

--
Also, speaking of Atum, where is he? Did he say anything about not being here? I thought he mentioned his exams were over.

---------- Post automerged at 11:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 AM ----------

/msg Riley Poole !xmafia votes

---------- Post automerged at 11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 AM ----------

btw, I reread the entire Day again. I recommend you all do the same.
There is a lot of derp statements from everyone, and you should probably read back and revise them.

---------- Post automerged at 11:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 AM ----------

"Say what? My post's already on him and my stance has been unwavering all Day. What else are you expecting? Explain."
...Er, my vote's already on him*
Also, I realize I just said 'say what', but I meant it in a "what did you expect me to say" way.

 

@Sloth:

A couple of things
1) This is a newbie game. I noticed a newbie mistake of no one following up on you followed by a lot of AtE defense and just go the fuck away defense. (There's probably a proper term here but you and I speak a different language.) I would rather teach someone to keep all of their options open and LOSE and have this be a teaching experience rather than win and have newbies think it is okay to confirm you and me as town. This is a game. If winning comes over enjoyment or teaching in a newbie game I've done more harm than help. I’m completely okay with a newbie winning and me losing. If you do turn out to be town I will apologize to you.

2) Getting into an argument with you is plain stupid on my part. You are one of the best word smiths in the game I have seen in a long time. Getting into individual skills and social agendas is something I suck at. I focus on beginning, mid, and end game strategy. However I will try do so for the sake of the game. But I am taking it in the direction I want instead of trying to let you control the conversation like you try to do subtly. And I'm sure as hell not going to convince you of Atum not being scum you're tunneling yourself and you aren't going to say you're scum so this is really a no win situation for me on convincing you of jack shit. Playing the convincing game is not my game. I have to just make sure town opens their eyes and looks at everyone. A townie's job isn't to convince the scum player of ANYTHING, it's to convince the other people what the right plays are.



--- If you are scum, the proper play is to keep mbond around. Lynching Atum without that kill would have caused game over. There's no reason for the townie cred at that point. You had enough townie cred to go start your own city. There comes a point when you have so much townie cred you could point out the sky is blue and therefore player Y is scum. If a player has this much town cred look at them IMMEDIATELY. They can stay town but for god's sake at least reevaluate.


---- Stop saying that I am not posting decent arguments. That argument isn't going to fool ANYONE. People are reading and analyzing. If my arguments are shit, I trust town to see it. Quite frankly it's rather insulting that you do not trust town to see that if I make weak arguments they don't go anywhere. PASSION does NOT equal right like Rubicon said. THAT I entirely agree with.

----- The first time I came after you was a pressure vote to see how you'd react. I had it narrowed down to you and Rubicon because of a post of your own making:

https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showpost.php?p=725602&postcount=1567

Look at his comments about Snow. LOOK AT THEM. He says a NEWBIE cannot be alone with mbond.

So with Atum with one less game than Snow really be scum, by his own fucking words? And frame Sloth for the night kills? C'mon....*rolls eyes* You are not going to convince me that Atum is scum.

And yes Sloth -- I held these posts back. This is an entirely complex gambit but it's not about convincing you. I even SAID I was gambiting at the beginning of the day. What makes you think I wasn't gambiting before that point? I'm a freakin' confirmed townie. If I am scum then I am blacklisted from the board for LIFE. I have done things that are absolutely so shitty (e.g. implying/accusing Riley of bastard mod) if I wasn't town that I would be pretty much fucked from the board for life. This gives me enough freedom to be CRAZY to catch scum no one suspects.

Lastly -- Do you think I would be DUMB enough to announce all of my end game plans on who goes down who I'm flipping to? I've played more than enough mafia to know to keep those cards close to the vest. I have to play ALL of my scum angles. There's no reason anyone should believe anything about end game plans at this point. Are you really going to believe that if Sloth goes down that I'm going to flip on Rubicon because of a day's posts? Who says I won't flip back to Atum? Everyone here assumes that every post I have is the fuckin' gospel. Why? Why the hell are you not pushing me? Why are you assuming that I'd be an idiot enough to say here scum....Here's a goddamned map to victory. No player should be crazy enough to do that, unless it is WIFOM. It's all about subtlety.

Yeah I'm "dense" I'm a fucking idiot. My personality will "get me lynched". Town has painted me as an idiot from DAY ONE. By continuing to scum read and only complain about being called an idiot, this enabled a townie to stay through the entire damn game without being killed. This limited where scum could hide. However I could still scumhunt and get rid of likely scum. This enabled a lot of my posts to be raw and honest until the mod confirm fucked it all up into hell. With new information and a good player, this HAS to force a significant want to reread things if you did not have them as scum. Any time a scum is removed this should significantly alter one's read structure or at the very least cause someone to take time to do so. No PLAYER had MBOND as SCUM according to the board. ZERO NIL NADA, lots of null reads. For me it's not about connecting MBOND to other people it's about seeing their reactions TO the scum flip and who should be in end game because of it.

2) You said it yourself on the first day you lynched in B&T. Why is a player's survival more important? The proper play is for you to have taken the Atum lynch there's no reason to drag it out if you are sure. The other thing a townie would do is say that MathBlade is SO detrimental to town at the end game that we HAVE to lynch her. End game is not always about my top reads. It's about doing whatever it takes to make sure scum goes down. It's not about my survival. I call bullshit that you weren't thinking about end game and who you want there. You are trying to cash in on me being "crazy" and I am calling your fucking bluff.

---------- Post automerged at 12:45 ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 ----------

And Sloth... Only Wednesday evening. Tonight is RL. Every Tuesday night is.

 

In fairness to MathBlade and Snowvon, tunnel-visioned townies sometimes manage to be right without being able to express why in a logical argument. (Which is why I'm repeatedly trying to look at you without confirmation bias, even though I think your play has been pretty consistent.)

I think it's a stretch to think Atum/Snow shot TerRaine to 'throw everything Citrus said into question' since pretty much no one approaches scumhunting by looking at things like that.

This is what I keep coming back to, but I'm... well, incredulous that either Atum or Snowvon would be that confident they could get either of us paranoia-lynched. Especially since Atum was nearly lynched yesterday.

You wouldn't because there are only two werewolves and bussing in this setup is dumb.

Do you think you'd have been able to play this well as scum?

I'll get to it at some point. I kind of feel like I'm obvious town to the point that there's no reason to rush my analysis.

 

On the last line Rubicon, please post your response. No one is town firmed to me unless timestamp or mod

 

Vote Count:



As of right now there are no votes, unless someone didn't Bold/Color.



Day ends at this time.

 

That's correct I did unvote I'm willing to go with whatever town believes...If it's Atum it's Atum. I'll help town to do what it wants because we will win or lose as town. At the last hour of Wednesday if no one is lynched I will hammer. This way three go to end game.

---------- Post automerged at 13:39 ---------- Previous post was at 13:31 ----------

Uh Rubicon? The point is to not have scum play different than town play You said it yourself. What would happen if he drew scum? Would he want you to see it? No..he's locked in to read walls that are the size of novels...It should be consistent

---------- Post automerged at 13:56 ---------- Previous post was at 13:39 ----------

Board is having problems again *sigh* so this is as good a time as any for me to wrap up for today. If I post later tonight it will be from my phone.

 

@Mathblade
Sigh.

This ignores that we've already addressed the RL portion (if you still don't want to believe it, ok). If you mean something else was being AtE, I'm not seeing it.
It also ignores that I addressed your points decisively, and then I said I would not waste my time anymore once you closed your ears to it, for several reasons already stated.

This ignores how you're wrongly accusing me of something while at the same time stating you're going to do the very same thing you're accusing me of.

This ignores the idea of Riley telling the partner (in this scenario, me), that a modkill was coming, so there was no point in keeping him alive.
(It also ignores the idea that other players have re-evaluated me and just plain don't agree with you.)

This ignores the fact I've already shown why your arguments aren't decent, and how you stubbornly pretend they still are.

This ignores that I don't use the word 'newbie' in that entire post, along with the fact that my argument is based on skill, not experience. I can tell you right now I believe Atum is a much more skilled player than Snow.
(I'm also aware that earlier in the game I saying scum!Burkion's partner would have to be an experienced player, not scum!Dermon's, whom, while on a similar vote, at least had him around a bit.)

This ignores the fact that I wasn't saying that. I was asking if you were. I don't appreciate having an honest question thrown back at me.

...Ok, I'm stumped on this. I honestly have no clue what you're replying to, or what you're even talking about.

This part too. I assume it's not more me.

Off-game: Stop taking this to a personal place. Christ. I have never called you dense (that was ika), and what you're doing right now sounds like childish tantruming. Please stop. I don't think I'm being manipulative or scummy by asking you this.

Fair.

This ignores that I've already said that you're welcome to lynch me if others agree. You're pretending I'm fighting to stay alive where I've mostly been giving my cases and asking for you to do the same on your other suspects in the event I DO get lynched.
This also ignores that there's no hurry to lynch Atum when we have over a Day left to discuss, time which could very well be used to convince people I'm the best lynch. It also ignores that Atum hasn't posted at all and don't you think he should get to?
This also ignores that you just called yourself 'confirmed town' (let's say Town read rather than that), and are seriously proposing we should waste one of our two last chances on you because you're 'detrimental'? Do you even realize how egocentric that sounds?

Thanks for taking a post to basically state you don't care about anything I have to say about Atum. Please scumhunt.
(And have fun on your game thing.)

--
@Rubicon

You've read her argument and my counters. If you see something, please bring it up.
Also that extends mostly to Mathblade, since at the very least she thinks she's right. Snowvon went from tentative Town right back to possible Scum with what amounts to blatant sheeping he didn't bother to explain.

 

You're both equally loud.

Her proposed endgame scenarios just sound reasonable. Do you agree/disagree with any of them? Are you thinking of the final three, in case Atum flips town?

Yes. Paranoia with a capital P.

Also Atum isn't really here to talk to. It'd be nice to factor in his opinion on all that we've posted toDay.

Atum/Dermon is slightly stronger than the other possibilities, but it still appears kind of flimsy. Has Atum responded to this paragraph yet?

I read all of your posts, Sloth. Every. Last. Word.

Oh. It looked like you were ignoring something. Never mind, then.

I am an escape artist renowned and celebrated like no other.

Sloth, next time just lynch me asap. Almost!endgame is exhausting.

 

My main issue with them is that I believe scum's in Atum/Rubicon.
If you lot want to lynch me first, fine, if you can agree on it. If it does happen, I want Town to pick the right one Tomorrow - And the idea seems to be that if I flip Town, Rubicon's next and not a second of thought goes to Atum.
This is also why I wanted to hear what about Mathblade's theories you liked. Is it just the endgame scenarios?

I'm thinking of the final three, and I'm not: Like Citrus said is his last post, it's not a good plan to talk about these sort of thing, since it could give scum ideas, or result in scum doing something else entirely to be unpredictable (my whole theory on Terraine has revolved around that.)
It shouldn't be fairly obvious who I think should be next on the chance Atum flips Town though.

He responded, my response to his response was in 1630.
I'm aware it's flimsy, but given that I noticed it during the Night (before the modkill), his lack of actual scumhunting to Dermon, his parroting of Rubicon, and everything else I've pointed out on my analysis yesterDay, I'm willing to place a stronger bet on Atum over Rubicon.

Yeah, because it's so fun for me to have a player bounce from maybe-Town to maybe-Scum every other post when I'm trying to narrow the field to the most likely possibility.

If not Rubicon, who do you think should go toDay?

---------- Post automerged at 04:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 PM ----------

...A section of my post is missing. What the hell?
Basically, I asked that if you read all my posts, what are your thoughts on my analysis and theories? How could you not know that Atum responded and that I responded to him if you've been keeping up?

 

Game was cancelled. I'm probably going to be back and forth using the opportunity to work on some graphics.

@Snow: But endgame is so much fun Sloth is right ya are being kinda sheepy. Make up your own arguments dude...Just in case Atum is town and Sloth gets the NK.

And if I get the NK like I said before my endgame stuff could have been pure bullshit to get you to examine every player.

If you're going to believe in Sloth = Scum ya gotta do it for something more than what could be bullshit to deceive scum. You're better than that Snow

---------- Post automerged at 17:41 ---------- Previous post was at 17:37 ----------

@Riley: How long in the day before Atum is required to post? Which "day" is it for the rules?

---------- Post automerged at 17:53 ---------- Previous post was at 17:41 ----------

@Sloth: PS...I am scumhunting just not in the traditional manner..promise

 

I guess I'll trust you on that and hope for the best. Sorry about your game.

Anyway, I'm back if anybody has anything to add/bring up. I'll check in from time to time.

 

So uh, unless I'm mistaken MathBlade here has said repeatedly she's willing to sheep a lynch on a townie just to ensure Sloth gets lynched tomorrow. Now I get that everybody seems to be townreading her but this seems a little ridiculous. Especially considering how much faith some of us seem to put into scumtells like that in determining who's a wolf.

@Sloth: I don't really understand your argument against me. I voted TerRaine early D3 after having seriously considered joining Titus' wagon on her D2. Then I re-read and retracted my vote but not my suspicions. At this point, it kind of goes back to what I asked you D1, what doesn't seem scummy to you. At this point, defending myself gets called defensive, leaving it alone will get a mislynch, and scumhunting has essentially devolved to finger-pointing and people trying to confirm themselves as Town. Also, I've seen a few reference to my skill in mafia come up in your arguments lately, all suggesting I'm more clever than you've previously suggested my behavior showed IIRC. The inconsistency in that regard makes it seem like you're trying to say whatever works in a situation to make me seem scummy. That being said I'm still not convinced you're scum, really.

@MathBlade: I agree with your suspicion on Sloth mostly because he's still alive and I'd think he'd be a more viable NK target considering all the analysis he gives. That's why TerRaine didn't make sense to me, I don't think a Sloth NK would have pointed to a specific player, so the wolf should have been fine. In my mind, that means that scum probably isn't a (relatively) new person, unless they really just want to keep the game interesting. Hence my revised order of Rubicon => Sloth => Snowvon. The reason this was directed at you Math is because I was trying to say I don't really follow your argument on Sloth, other than the rational fear that we haven't lynched the wolf because everyone thought they were Town.

@Snowvon: Why do you play mafia? Not in a mean way, but what's your motivation?

I'm on my phone so if I'm missing a response to something can you link me or give the post number? Also, testing is not over for me, Spanish awaits Thursday Friday. Today was Chem. Paper 3.

 

Sloth you ask about stance on MathBlade. Everybody says she's town so I'm mostly willing to take your word for it. I think her posts have changed from targeted questions and scumhunting to appeals of emotion, vote organizing and the like, but that may just ne her endgame I guess. I've played with the attitude that no one member of Town needs to figure out who's scum, more of a collaborative approach, so I'm sort of willing to accept that I'm missing some sign that she's town and moving on.