So... performing an incredibly complex, potent bit of magic is evidence for magic incompetence. Got it. :facepalm

 

Archie: do you have any quote at all to suggest mastery of the wand requires acceptance of death? Do you think Harry was the master of the wand? Because everyone else does, including dumbledore (or at least his painting and ghost) who you allege to have studied wandlore. If Harry is the master of the wand then it IS only by indirect disarming.

 

Mastery of the elder wand involves no such acceptance of death. Acceptance of death is the requirement of being the "Master of Death", a symbolic title based around a bedtime story and having no magical significance.

To master the elder wand, one simply has to best its current owner. Voldemort did not best Dumbledore when he had the wand, Draco when he was the master, or Harry when he was the master. He simply took the wand from a tomb. So he didn't gain mastery.

That's all there is to it. Archie's inventing stuff again.

 

Was voldemort more skilled at magic than dumbledore, dumbledore had the elder wand and still only fought him to a stand still, or was it more to do with dunbledore's unwillingness to use dark magic/aim to kill?

I understand this is mostly speculation with answers but I would like people's thoughts on it.

 

Jjf88, there are several pages of that discussion in the plot holes thread.

 

Cheers mate. On my phone and couldn't be arsed trying to search for it on this. I'll have a look when I'm at my desktop.

 

Taure: When you say Voldemort understood esoteric magics, I get what you're saying. He knew of them, but if he was so consistently unprepared for them, and so consistently unaware of how they'd come into play in a given situation, doesn't that imply some lack of understanding?

If he really understood the dynamics of Lily's sacrifice, why wouldn't he retreat for a time? If he understood esoteric magics, why did he believe the prophecy? Why murder Harry and then attack Hogwarts, triggering Harry's protection for everyone? That had even already happened once. Harry did the same exact thing for others his mother did for him, and Voldemort still doesn't recognize what's about to go down. Why not personally check the body, after experiencing some strange magical effect rather like the one that occurred the first time he attempted to murder Harry? He doesn't know how to read the writing on the wall. Which is a huge part of being a great wizard, afaic.

If he knew of phoenixes, and their healing powers, why not put Fawkes out of commission, on the off chance he might heal the brave kid, as phoenixes tend to do?

I'm not saying Voldemort wasn't a great Dark Wizard, or that he was unfamiliar with fundamentals. I know most of the problem was arrogance. But wouldn't a true understanding have allowed him to put his arrogance aside when it became apparent some eldritch, higher level shit was about to happen?

Also, about Aberforth, I get that he could have avoided some of the fight, but how good is he? I guess you dont think he's that good if he was off to the side, lol.

 

With respect to Fawkes, recall that it was the soul fragment of a teenaged Riddle, not the worldly wizard with decades of experience, and he may not have had much if any exposure to phoenixes before that moment. Not remembering an esoteric thing about phoenix tears being able to heal the deadliest of poisons isn't so big a stretch--while not particularly rare, they aren't exactly common either (and only rarely domesticated).

 

I think you were the one who mentioned a very, very interesting possibility last time, that Lily's "sacrifice" was actually a "bargain," to spare Harry in return for killing her, and that this is what works in both Lily's and Harry's favor, when Voldemort has agreed to kill him and spare Hogwarts. Moreover, he had also made a similar deal with Snape, which he also reneges on (or pretty much reneges on; "Sorry, Severus, bitch just wouldn't move" . . . "Did you try stunning her?" . . . "Stunning? do you even know me?")

An awesome idea, but if it were true, this is, again, Voldemort fucking up on very old, very powerful magic that he should be well-aware of: namely, magical bargaining. And this is in a world where Unbreakable Vows EXIST. He knows about them, knows that striking a deal carries a huge metaphysical weight . . . and still fucks up.

 

Afrojack, you just made a very interesting point. Indeed, what if Voldemort going "poof" in 1981 was because of an Unbreakable Vow made to Snape not to kill Lily? He could have thought that he was immune to the Vow given his quasi-immortality. The Vow and his horcruxes conflicted, so he became less than a merest ghost, if I recall his line correctly, but still alive.

 

Maybe not "Unbreakable Vows", but after the third book I got the feeling that promises and vows in general were pretty important in the wizard world. Also let's not forget the Goblet of Fire where you don't have to specifically agree to something in order to get roped in.

 

I'm with Oz, I doubt that Voldemort would give to anyone as much as "I promise you", nevermind anything magical. At max, he would alllow someone to beg him for a favor.

 

To be fair, Pers was the first one to think bargaining may have had anything whatsoever to do with it, IIRC.

If anything, it might have been something accidental and quasi-incomprehensible, something that was a direct result of his 'negotiation' with Lily, more so than Snape, if it had anything to do with him at all. Lily asked him to take her and not Harry, etc.

 

Are you referring to this?

 

That seems like total nonsense to me. So when someone promises something, then their magic will delete itself after a wizard decides not to uphold his promise? What would politicians do then before elections? Promise something and then get punished by their magic? Maybe (that's big maybe) this 'magical promises' thing would explain how Voldemort got killed by his own killing curse, but it would also create a world where noone can lie. I would very much prefer Rowling's explanation with love.

A wizard's signature wouldn't suffice? Crouch jr. was a teacher as Moody, so he had Harry's homeworks at his disposal. It's possible that he used Harry's signature.

 

That's fanon oaths: "I swear by my life and magic..."

 

The feeling you get is called fanon.

 

Ahh, my apologies then! Knew it was someone who consistently had good ideas

Sorry I credited someone else, brilliant idea though.

 

Has anyone in a fanfic tried to use Reparo on the piece of parchment, that came out of Goblet of fire.

What would happen if they did?