If you honestly believe Mab gives a shit about that, I have a bridge to sell you.

"Trust" and "Mab" aren't words that go together. Ever. In any combination or context, without a negative involved in there somewhere.

If you're going to assume that Mab doesn't have contingencies in place in case her own Knight turns on her, especially when it's involving Harry, who Mab has admitted and Jim has confirmed acts erratically and unpredictably from Mab's point of view, then you and I are on such entirely different wavelengths that there's really no point talking about this any further.

I'm underestimating her? You're the one that's assuming she wouldn't have insurance in case something goes wrong or her own Knight tries to kill her.

Treachery is fucking afternoon tea in the Winter Court, and you think their Queen wouldn't have contingencies in place should the only singular being frequently in her vicinity that could stand a strong chance of attacking her and actually winning betray her.

But I'm the one underestimating Mab. Clearly.

"You saw Lash and Lasciel in Ghost Stories" isn't "a Sidhe-like answer."

You were flat-out told a thing. That's literally the opposite of what you said.

It only looks like a 'Sidhe-like' answer because all of you fucks ran off and assumed Lash was the parasite.

There's a difference between "you gave her a name, the will came with it" and "mortals have the power to give monolithic cosmic beings that don't have true free will like we do the ability to change and become something different from what they are."

Bob confirmed that Harry giving Lasciel's Shadow a name had something to do with it.

I'm saying I believe that if Harry and Anduriel, the Fallen Angel Anduriel, were somehow thrown together by circumstances, and Harry started calling him Andy, and Anduriel let him and began answering to it, that would open up Anduriel's nature to changing from what it is right now towards something different, for better or worse.

I'm saying I believe that when Uriel said watching mortals throw around names is like watching children play with hand grenades, he was referring to the fact that we're constantly inflicting deep, fundamental changes on ourselves, the people around us, and the things in our environment simply by naming them and re-naming them, and we don't even realize it.

I'm saying Uriel panicked and was afraid not because Uri was an insult, but because Harry giving him a new name like how he gave the Shadow one would open Uriel's nature up to change, and Uriel did not want to change. Thus why he immediately shot that down, and then later accepted a nickname that wasn't really a new name.

None of that is confirmed. That is all purely speculation.

And Shadow Dresden outranks Jim Butcher on canon, does he? Shadow Dresden knows everything about what happened? He's the real expert on what happens if somebody has a Fallen's Shadow in their mind for half a decade and then the Shadow eats a psychic explosion on their host's behalf?

I fucking told you I was going to get sick of repeating this. I fucking knew this would happen. I could have said nothing, and laughed later at all the people who didn't listen or pay attention when she gets revealed. But I did it anyway, because I'm a fucking idiot.

Do I need to put it in my signature? Should I start wearing a t-shirt? What's it going to take?

Can you show me Jim saying he retcon'd that?
IF YES: Go to source
IF NO: Please stop

I'm not babysitting people who don't understand basic concepts like in-universe fallibility.

If this is too hard for you, that's cool and I'm not judging, but I don't have the patience to pull out charts and graphs and spend the afternoon trying to explain to you that the reason you need to take The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy book in Elder Scrolls: Skyrim with a grain of salt is because the Breton priest who wrote it didn't know everything there is to know about the subject and was no more or less fallible than any other living, intelligent mortal being.

Just because a character says something is true doesn't mean it's true.

Some stories have characters that are basically authorial mouthpieces for facts, i.e. unless they are contradicted, we should assume what they said is completely accurate. These would be characters like Dumbledore, or Sherlock Holmes, or Hermione, or Navi, or Gandalf.

The Dresden Files, though, isn't really one of those stories. Because the things that can serve as the Voices of Canon don't really show up all that frequently, and rarely actually talk plainly when they do.

The only beings that could really decisively speak as a mouthpiece for canon would be beings like Uriel and the Mothers, who can perceive, if not everything, then at least most things. To a lesser extent, we would expect Butters to know about human biology, and whatever Bob says about the mechanics of magic to be correct, because they are experts in those areas.

Guess what Shadow Harry isn't?

One of those beings.

Shadow Harry isn't an expert. He's not even a real person. Shadow Harry is Harry. What does Harry know about a Fallen's echo taking a psychic hit to the face while inside someone's brain?

Not much.

So give me even one good reason Shadow Harry showing up in Skin Game and saying Lash died in White Knight trumps Jim Butcher saying Lash and Lasciel both appeared in Ghost Stories, and that they both still have parts to play in the story.

Explain to me why you think that the characters in the story not knowing everything about what's going on around them means that Jim is being intentionally misleading. Please. I really want to hear this.

 

Quick question:

Who told Harry that he was dangerous to Mab by simple virtue of being the Knight? And yes, there are two answers here, but one of them was a total newb and had been relying on the other for guidance and understanding of her position.

Not saying I don't think Harry isn't dangerous, just most likely not in the way we think.

Mab hasn't gotten to be who and where she is by, to borrow the phrase, collecting bottle caps. She may not be omniscient (or hell, maybe she is, we haven't actually been told) but she must not only have ways of holding off Harry - she's been dealing with Knights for a very, very long time - but she also recognises how different he is from previous Knights, and deals with that, too. She doesn't care for him, or truly fear him, but she shows him just a modicum of respect, the way you do a loaded handgun. She can kill him. She knows exactly how to get it done, too, we all do - shoot him from a distance. Mab might like to deal with things personally, but she's practical enough to just get shit done when she wants to.

As for Lash/Lasciel; there are videos of Q and As where JB said both Lash and Lasciel's stories weren't done, from before Ghost Story. When GS came along, he said they were both in it. Pretty much unambiguous. Can't off the top of my head think of when JB outright lied to his readers in WoJ.

 

I'm assuming Harry is pretty important to her, actually. She's wanted him for a long time and went to pretty serious efforts to keep him alive.

I doubt she risked months away from Winter in order to maintain Harry's life if she was only going to use him once or twice, then discard him. That doesn't mean she hasn't got several back-ups plans should Harry not pan out, but she has long-term plans for him.

I theorise that the gig of Winter Knight might lead to a promotion as Gatekeeper, if you're the right sort. Maybe that's what she intends for him, in the end. Or he's just a weapon specifically designed to deal with the outsiders. As a Starborn, he is well equipped for that particular struggle.

 

If the Queens had Intellictius, even if only about their respective courts and the doings therein, then Aurora could never have been corrupted by Nemesis, and Mab would not have allowed the incidents with Lea and Maeve to occur in the first place.

Either the Queens are falliable and don't have any form of higher knowledge beyond whatever inherently comes with being that powerful, or both Mab and Titania have been compromised since the beginning.

If if they had both been compromised for that long, I don't think the world would still be there.

I can buy the Mothers having it, because both of their hands are tied not only in what they can do, but even what they can say. I'm sure the pair of them saw, if not all of this coming, then at least quite a bit of it, and I'm sure they did what they could to avert it with the room they had to act. Harry was obviously a big part of that.

But not the Queens. It's implied even one of the Queens actually going apeshit would basically be the apocalypse as far as mortals are concerned, for all intents and purposes. Maybe a little more Fallout and a little less Fire and Brimstone, but The End is still The End. That's why it was such a huge deal when the idea was floated that maybe Mab had actually lost it.

If both of them were taken, then there's no reason the story would have gone on this long. So they really can't have any form of omniscience.

Harry's important to her because he's the Fairy Godson of one of her Handmaidens who pissed in the Red Court's cheerios and got away with it, slew a Loup Garou, outwitted his own Fairy Godmother by taking lethal poison, and managed to kill one of the Ladies with a couple of boxes of pizza and some bargain bin cutlery.

The Sidhe love symmetry, and Mab has known, probably for a long time, that on some level, something would have to be done about Maeve. She would have wanted him just on the off chance she needed to throw the person who killed the Summer Lady after the Winter Lady.

You don't need a complicated reason to explain why Mab wanted Harry. He's valuable to her for the same reason he's valuable to the Fallen, or the Red Court, or Lara Raith. She doesn't love him, or want him for any particular existential reason. Word of Jim, she doesn't even really understand his motivations, nor can she ever accurately predict what he will do in a given situation. She just knows he gets shit done, and that's enough reason for her.

I'm with Michael on this one. What concerns me as far as Molly goes is what happens when Mab twists her to where she wants Molly to be. What concerns me about Harry is what is going to happen when Mab realizes she can't do that to Harry.

 

They are, in the end, on the same side. They both want the world to keep spinning. As long as their enemies are the same, they'll be fine. Of course she doesn't love him. But I stand by the opinion that he is a bit more important than a slightly sharper sword than what might otherwise be available.

 

Ha, no. I respectfully disagree. Mab cannot change who she is, and she is the Queen of Darkness. If she was capable of not being crazy, evil, and psychotically manipulative, she wouldn't have screwed Harry out of an explanation in Cold Days and Skin Game just for the sake of watching him squirm. It would have been more efficient, and better for her own plans, if she'd just been straight with him. But she's evil, and a fairy, at the same time.

Mab and Harry both want to keep the world spinning. The problem is, Harry wants to keep it spinning exactly the way it is, but with the vampires respecting their limits and the trolls staying the hell under the bridges.

Mab wants the world to keep spinning in the palm of her hand.

There are fundamental differences of opinion between all these unlikely bedfellows. That's why they're unlikely bedfellows.

Also, because I can:

He's answered this question multiple times. Lash and Lasciel were both in Ghost Stories, neither of them are done with their stories.

 

Okay, given that we've got a lot more information to work with now than when that WoJ was first given, let's try to work out what name Lash was using and where she appeared in the book.

The obvious answer would be the Inez statue in Graceland Cemetery. If that's true though she came across a lot less like she was before/during White Night, especially if she was aware of her daughter being stuck in Harry's head. Could be because of the psychic bullet she took, could be because she specifically got hit with an Outsider Psychic Bullet TM.

Otherwise I'm not seeing where she could show up, unless she was using illusions in some way. If that's true it should be much easier to spot than usual because there are a limited number of people Harry directly interacted with during that book.

Oooooooh, maybe she was the angel that was sent to protect Father Forthill's soul should he have died. It's a long shot, but an interesting idea nonetheless.

On an unrelated note, I think Vittorio Malvora probably got infected by Nemesis rather than having a Walker at his back. The Walkers seem to be more about the up close and personal rather than playing the subterfuge game (which is Nemesis' forte).

 

Wasn't it explicitly said that Inez was Mab's mouthpiece, as the other one was Demonreach's? That's what I thought anyway, I'll have to go back and double check.

 

Remember that Lea was there as well. She has acted as Mab's proxy several times in the past.

Also, shame on you. Faeries never give straight answers. You know that.

---------- Post automerged at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 AM ----------

Checking out the latest Jim interview he gives some more info on the Winter Knight mantle:

Interesting. That implies to me that Harry is just using his own magic, but has gained the equivalent of a crash course in using it to create ice instead of, say, fire.

 

Strongly implied, but I don't think Butcher has directly stated it or anything. However I don't see how it could really be Lash regardless. The words don't really fit, nor does the general attitude (We could expect that Lash would have mentioned the SoI in any longer conversation).

Kinda wish someone would ask about Lash in one of the interviews so we would get confirmation of her death one way or the other.

Another question I wish someone should ask is whether or not theres been a "retcon" on how the winter mantle works.

 

Uh. How do we know that? She may have a very good reason for not divulging those details.

 

Also, I doubt Mab is actually evil since she lacks both free will and human morals.

 

She is precisely the kind of commander that's needed to protect the Gates. She's willing to do anything, sacrifice anyone, to keep the enemy at bay. Evil? I really wouldn't call it that.

 

This. Unscrupulous? Definitely. Evil? No.

Raine is making Mab out to be a complete monster because it suits her arguments and opinions. In actuality, Mab is, at worst, a well-intentioned extremist, and more than likely falls somewhere in the realm of - in this case - She Who Fights Monsters.

Mab does what she needs to do to win - in court, at home, and in her interests abroad. That's it.

Also, Mab not telling Harry everything was most likely for the best. She told him what he needed to know and what would acceptably fall under a definition of the truth without showing him all the cards she was holding. We have been told, numerous times, that faeries have been playing with the truth since they were created, and they frequently answer in something that is definitely the truth but doesn't give all of the details.

Sure, she could've given Harry more details. Then again, that's Harry's fault, because he didn't ask the right questions.

 

She doesn't tell him anything, at any time, that doesn't suit her. Take the parasite for example. It killing him is a bad thing. Does she cure him? No. She keeps it all to herself until such a time as she is able to use it for leaverage. Any further information about himself, his role, or Molly's is only going to be given to him once Mab needs for him to know it.

 

Again, the right questions. He could've asked her what she knew about the Parasite. Instead he asked her if it was going to kill him.

Also, you have to look at the Faeries, as an entire race, as information brokers. They're not going to give something without getting something in return, and you have to ask the right questions, because if you don't, they can charge you twice (or more) for literally the same piece of information.

 

Even if he asked the right question, she'd probably withhold information, but yeah.

 

If he asks the right questions, Mab not answering is answer enough.

 

Because she flat-out told us that. I had thought the quote was in Cold Days, but it wasn't, or at least, not where I presume it would have been, i.e. near the end, so now I'm starting to suspect White Knight. But regardless, she told us that. It was a rather memorable response to Harry demanding that Mab explain herself. And even if she hadn't, it's rather clearly implied from her actions alone, if nothing else.

Sometimes, I wonder if some of you have even read these books.

Never mind. Now I'm fucking positive some of you don't even read these books.

I'm not even going to fucking waste my time trying to explain to you exactly why it's not my personal opinion that the Queen of Air and Darkness is a complete monster. I could. I could talk about what she did to Lloyd Slate, solely for her own personal amusement. We could talk about how every superficially 'good' thing she's ever done, like providing protection to Molly from the White Council, was really just a side-effect of her putting herself and her own interests first, to the detriment of everyone else involved. We could even bring up how pointlessly cruel she's been, for no other reason that because she can be, because she enjoys being cruel.

I could even bring up the fact that the entire Summer Court exists SPECIFICALLY TO STOP MAB FROM CONQUERING THE WORLD FOR SHITS AND GIGGLES.

Hell, I could call her a complete fucking monster just on what she did to Slate alone. Antagonists in other works have been called the same for less, to thunderous applause.

But really, if you're this fucking stupid, you won't accept any of it. So I'm not going to even dignify your delusional fanboy bullshit with an argument. You're wrong. End of story.

You're the reason we have shit fan fiction about Mab and Titania, you know. Shit like this is why we get fics where Harry gives Mab or Titania his almighty protagonist cock and suddenly everything is sunshine and rainbows. Because you're delusional enough to believe that if only someone could show one of them The True Meaning of Christmas and/or Love, everything would be fine.

They already know what it means. They've been using it to manipulate people for centuries.

I've been looking for a reason to go back and reread Ghost Stories. I suspect that if Jim did slip her in there, she's probably in the background somewhere, and not right in our faces. I'll make a list of everything she could be, and then we can start crossing off things.

 

"I could. I could talk about what she did to Lloyd Slate, solely for her own personal amusement."

To avoid future traitors, it's generally preferable to set an example. To Mab, this might have been a calculated thing. It might also have been her being curious rather than sadistic.

"I could even bring up the fact that the entire Summer Court exists SPECIFICALLY TO STOP MAB FROM CONQUERING THE WORLD FOR SHITS AND GIGGLES."

Yet again, no evidence for the fact that she'd find it amusing. She might, however, find it useful to conscript every single man and woman able to carry a weapon and bring them to the wall. Or use the mortal world as a factory for guards.

Seriously, Raine. Calm yo shit. There is no need to take that tone with anyone of us. We may disagree, hell, we should disagree. That's what keeps the thread going. But can we return to discussing things in an orderly fashion?