On the subject of more Dementors 'appearing' (or whatever) when a there is a feeling of depression from the community (do I have that right? If not, I think it's close enough for you to understand what I mean).

This seems kind of like the opposite of what SHOULD happen. I agree it fits and is quite awesome to be honest. But why would there be MORE Dementors when there is LESS food (happy thoughts) to feed on?

Obviously they don't really need that 'food' to survive, but we're definitely given the impression that they enjoy it. You would think their number would increase if there was more of it to go around.

 

I have two ways of looking at this, though they conflict with each other:

Option 1: When misery is spreading and Dementors are multiplying, the cycle of cause and effect doesn't settle into a natural balance. Dementors consume happiness and then make more Dementors, who consume more happiness, spreading faster and farther to satisfy their need to feed, breeding more Dementors, etc.

Option 2: They have it wrong and Dementors feed on misery, which they increase by forcing people to focus on their painful memories, thus squeezing thoughts of happier things to the back of their minds.

 

It might be that the causal loop is being slightly misunderstood. Dementors do seem to feed on happy memories, or so we're told, but it is also mentioned that their jurisdiction is somehow governed by the Ministry, so that their powers are limited to places where it's useful to the state (Azkaban, Ministry dungeons, etc.).

When Voldemort reverses this situation and gives them some measure of freedom, they begin to feed on the population at large, vastly increasing their dietary resources.

In canon, we are told that Dementors spread when there is more misery, but I think this is more a statement of correlation than causation. Rather, it should be said that there is more misery when Dementors spread.

 

Pottermore disagrees:

Of course, boggarts, poltergeists, Dementors and their ilk are canonically poorly understood.

 

Neither of those excerpts mentions Dementors, and you yourself just mentioned that it claims itself to be incomplete or possibly inaccurate; 'poorly understood.'

And . . . it's Pottermore. Some of the stuff on there is . . . questionable.

EDIT: Though, to be fair, if they are a representation of depression, it is rather poignant to make them also breed by a vicious cycle of misery breeding more and more misery, until no happiness is left.

Though, breeding by access to a much larger pool of resources also makes sense. And this would still be a relatively adequate representation of depression's aggressive nature, continuing to breed and multiply even as misery increases, and there's no reason they shouldn't still be able to breed until, as before, no happiness is left.

And there is still the question of the presence or absence of some controlling force (ministry).

 

Um, what? I think you need to read closer.

 

My mistake then, but "generated and sustained by human emotions" doesn't negate anything I said, and does nothing to clarify the distinction between whether they're feeding on misery, happiness, or both, and whether or not that would have anything to do with Voldemort's relaxed or inverted control. So I still don't know why you brought it up.

 

One would assume, I would imagine, that just as Dementors spontaneously generate in areas that have large amounts of sadness and despair, they would likewise fade away and vanish from places that have large amounts of happiness and optimism.

It's not like Dementors are created, and then never go away, ever, because the world would be stuffed with them by now. I'd presume they fade in and out of existence, their numbers fluctuating with the tide of general human emotion.

To put it simply, if all the problems of the world were solved and no one was unhappy, Dementors would presumably go extinct.

 

This would make a lot of sense. It also explains why they don't chug down a Patronus (a manifestation of a happy memory?) like it's their favourite beverage. They are said to feed on happy memories, because they do, to get rid of them, and make way for the depression and despair they so revel in.

I'm gonna go with that.

EDIT: Or perhaps they really don't feed on happy memories but instead, like you said, just force people to experience depression. The only reason we think they feed on happy memories at all is because someone told us they did. But since not much is known about Dementors at all it's safe to assume this is just a guess. A pretty good interpretation as to why people lose their happiness around Dementors, but also wrong.

This actually works better because if they wanted happy memories at all, regardless of enjoying the depression of those around them, they probably wouldn't stick around Azkaban, they'd go find someone new to suck the happiness out of. This way, Azkaban is actually the PERFECT place for them, the ultimate place of despair. Hell, people are depressed before they even get there.

 

My personal headcanon is that Dementors eat happy memories so that people feel more misery, which makes it easier for them to breed.

Also, has anyone considered the idea that Dementors simply have a short lifespan?

 

I always took the "feed on happy memories" as an expression rather than as a literal statement. To me it meant that the person felt like their happiness was just eaten away (to stick to the same metaphor) and all that's left is misery. I'd always taken it to be that the literal sense was that the misery and depression is what nourishes the dementors and that's why pure happiness and joy is poison to them. Nothing else really quite makes sense without bringing real conflict.

 

I think I took way too much of the books literally. Probably because I was much younger when I read them and missed the symbolism. If rereading them I think my opinions would change quite a bit.

 

But that was sort of my question. Do they spontaneously generate where there is more misery, or do they generate more often when they have access to a larger food supply after the controls on them are relaxed, as they were in HBP?

Or, put more simply, are they generating because there's more misery, or is there more misery because they've been allowed to breed more often as the result of being freed and allowed to feed on more of the population outside Azkaban.

Their generation need not be the result of grief, nor do we have to negate what was said in the books, if we presume they are breeding simply as the result of having more food (happy memories), after we were told, again, in the books, that someone (Voldemort) GAVE them more food. In the absence of Ministry control (which there was), they fed more and misery increased in direct proportion to their increased consumption of happy memories.

JKR has told us they can't eat Patronuses because they are "too much" of what they eat, i.e. happy memories. Too much of what is being said tosses away canon information directly from the books.

 

The reason I brought it up is because it directly answers you question about correlation than causation. You're arguing that dementors breeding means they go out and cause more unhappiness. Now, while that may be true, Pottermore is very clear that Dementors are 'generated and sustained by human emotions.'

Human emotion causes more dementors to be generated and sustains those that already exist.

 

My suggestion was about correlation and causation with regard to misery.

I know that Dementors are 'generated and sustained by human emotions.' We're arguing about which emotion generates and sustains them.

I'm just saying it's not misery that does that, but happiness. As in, Dementors aren't generated and sustained by misery. They are generated and sustained by happiness, which means that when they are around, they breed misery. Misery doesn't breed them.

How could they breed in HBP when people weren't getting any happier? Because Voldemort widened their ranging grounds from tiny little Azkaban to all of fucking Britain. They don't need to be generated and sustained by misery (changing what was said of them in the books) to breed when they suddenly have unlimited access to what they actually eat - happy memories.

EDIT: And what's scarier? A misery-eating monster who only shows up when you're already depressed, or an incarnation of depression that can literally feed on any happiness you might have, at any time? The true monster is the one that can show up even when you feel safe (and happy), not the one that shows up just to kick you when you're already down. One is more easily-defeated, while the other's mere presence in the world is a constant threat, an unending terror that is just a part of living.

When Lupin says Dementors are the most wretched creatures in existence, I imagine something that feeds on my happiness, that can only be fought by those with the greatest strength of mind and will to stay happy, not something that only feeds on misery (and which can be expelled by the mere presence of general happiness).

 

I think temperature/weather plays a factor in breeding as well? Apparently, Dementors are not found in Tropical regions, while Lethifolds are common. And vice-versa.

 

What Dementors feed on and what leads to an increase in their numbers are two distinct things. Food is not reproduction.

Here is everything we know from canon and interviews:

Dementors feed on happiness. They take happiness from people, leaving them to wallow in unhappy thoughts and memories, leaving them miserable.

But that's just what they eat, not how they are born. JKR told us that "These evil creatures don't, by the way, breed but grow like a fungus where there is decay." That's pretty explicit: happiness doesn't create Dementors. Unless you want to propose that happiness = decay.

It's interesting that she says decay, not despair or unhappiness. I'm picturing run-down urban areas and brownfield sites. That's a part of their powers people seem to gloss over, with all the focus on mental effects -- their ability to induce decay.

Hmm. It'd be interesting if Dementors were really rare before the industrial revolution, and then their numbers massively increased.

 

Hah, Dementors related to industrialism. Now that's a new idea.

Soon we'll have first Dementor Decay Denialists.

 

I wouldn't propose that they are equivalent. But there is something interesting about the potential relationship between them.

There are several creatures that attack an organism, severely injure or kill it, and use the prey's body as a nest for their offspring, and they usually attack the most vulnerable target. Hence, Dementors spawn around/seek/inhabit areas where decay (of whatever sort they require) is prevalent and/or feed upon happiness that is either decayed, or exists within a context of decay (Azkaban, Britain under Voldemort, etc.), weakening it and facilitating the 'growth' of more Dementors within a setting that would be easy for (newer?) Dementors to feed upon, until they have the numbers to spread and do it again.

 

Mastery of the Elder wand.

Voldemort was never the master since he never bested its current master Draco. Mastery was given to Harry.

So even though he possessed it, he could never use it to full effect.

Dumbledore had it and used it to full effect, evident by its true mastery tlowing from him to Draco to Harry.

But how did he get it?

Dumbledore beat Gillert Grindewald, who got it from Gregor the wand maker. But it's said and shown that Gillert stole the wand, leaving Gregor alive for Voldemort to interview 50 years latter.

So assuming Gregor ligitimatly had the wand, he was still its master until Voldemort killed him taking the mastery.

We know theft isn't able to claim it, as Voldmort stole it from Dumbledores grave.