They'll be tortured to death, yeah. I don't see what would convince the Erlking to let them go, or who would/could free them.

 

Not to death. Death is easy. They'll be kept alive 100s of years probably.

But I expect we'll see something happen, and they break free etc. I mean, I really doubt we've seen the last of the Eebs.

 

They got in touch with Jim Butcher about making the trailer. Matt, the guy who played Harry, already knew Jim through some stuff, so he and some friends basically just got in touch with him, asked if he was cool with it, and the publishers and his agent and everyone, and it basically got turned into an official (i.e. has the ok from Butcher, Publisher, etc) trailer. So they got the plot details to make sure the trailer was accurate and whatnot.

They had a panel about the whole process at Denver Comic Con a couple weekends ago. There's video of the panel here.

 

They could survive as a reestablished but minor court. I think it's canon that there were a couple other minor courts other than the Reds, Whites, Blacks, and Jades; it would take them centuries to get the numbers and infrastructure back in place.

 

They'd have to stay so fucking far under the radar that it wouldn't get called a court IMO.

 

If two people in a hole that everyone hates counts as a 'Court,' then Dresden will be signing himself up under the Accords as a Power any day now.

 

Interesting thought there. As the remaining two RC do they inherit/maintain their position on the accords?

EDIT: As well as the belief!power of the Red King and the Lords of Outer Night.

 

Why would they? I wasn't aware that Mantles flowed around like water. Only Sidhe Court power works that way.

As far as we know, it doesn't not extend to them, either. Don't make assumptions. Any member of any of the signatory groups can be held accountable and be considered to represent the group as a whole. There's no reason to believe it doesn't work the same way with Marcone's people.

 

And that's a fantastic theory, but it's really not backed up by anything we've actually seen. It's pure speculation.

Also, I'm pretty sure Monoc isn't responsible for what anyone who hires them orders them to do, to a certain point, and whether or not someone has some sort of exceptional status as a signatory has nothing to do with it. Otherwise, there are only about three people on the planet who they could sell their services to. That's not a terribly good business plan.

 

This doesn't sound like speculation to me.

It sounds like you're stating facts.

 

Randomly chiming in:

Um. What about it isn't backed up? Pretty much all of that has been backed up in canon.

 

Oh dear. Someone's going to get an IRC spanking.

Wouldn't Marcone's barony of Chicago technically expend beyond him. He'd have to have a second in command, in case he's out of play temporarily. It does not seem like Marcone to leave everything he worked for in Chicago one assassination away from crumbling.

As for the hirelings from Monoc or elsewhere, they're weapons. The hand that wields them in responsible and that's the end of that. If one of Marcone's goons went rogue and killed off a wizard or a Sidhe Lord, I'm pretty sure it'd be a problem even if Marcone didn't order it.

 

Read the book yesterday and had a lot of fun with it. This and Cold Days were really quite a step up after Changes, even though they did get bogged down with some of the usual Dresden Tropes that I am quite frankly sick off by now.

Sorry for the incoming wall of text.

Stuff I liked: The heist stuff was cool, as said in this thread, not terribly original as far as plot goes but the execution was great and a lot of fun. The preparation and assembly of the team was cool to see, as was the heist itself. The team consisted of interesting characters, although, I'll be honest, while I liked Valmont and Binder in this, I could have just as easily gone through the rest of the books without ever wondering why they didn't show up. Don't get me wrong, I like it that Butcher includes minor characters like that again from time to time but honestly, those were not among those that seemed particularly interesting and I had all but forgotten those two by now.

I liked the Hannah Ascher character, who is a good example of a more memorable character who will not be forgotten quite as easily as Valmont and Binder. Her having the coin didn't really come as a surprise per se, although, I admit, it was surprising to me that she "died", which, if true, is a pity, since I really liked her and found her personality, skillset, backstory and opinions on the Wardens and Dresden quite interesting, to the point that it seemed a bit of a waste to shackle Lasciel onto her, who was, let's be honest, handled not all that well in this book.

This brings up a few of those trite and annoying Dresden Tropes; of course every single female character is uber hot and their hotness has to be commented every time they do something, and they have to get wet or naked or something like that. Yes, I realize that it was Lasciel and that it kinda makes sense in that regard, but honestly, Butcher would have done so anyway even if this hadn't been Lasciel and he didn't need to write it in a way to make it necessary to the story. Just am sick to have to read through another "she was so hot, I almost came directly into my pants every time she moved" that is almost obligatory at this point whenever a female character does something.

Anyway, I am hoping that Ascher is going to survive this somehow. I can see her fine control over fire, boosted by Lasciel, in a vault with weapons and treasures, pulling off something to survive this. I mean, if she had died, wouldn't Harry have seen her spirit leave the body like Deidre? Unless I missed that. If not, I suspect Ascher is going to appear again at some point. Seems wasteful to set her up in this book and have her just die at the end.

Nicodemus and Deidre, wow, did I feel bad for both of them, despite them being mass murderers and cult leaders among a lot of other things. That was harsh to witness, and I really like the theory that the sacrificer and the sacrifice have to be related for the Gate of Blood to work. But like with Asher, I doubt that was the last time we have seen Deidre.

"...wish there was another way," Nicodemus was saying quietly. "But you're the only one I can trust."

"I kno, Father," Deidre said. "It's all right."

"You will be safe from the Enemy here."

Deidre lifted her chin, and her eyes were wet. "I have chosen my path. I regret nothing."

Nicodemus leaned over and kissed his daughter's forehead. "I am so proud of you."
[...]"I love you, Father."

Nicodemus's rough voice cracked a little. "I know," he said, very gently. "And that is the problem."

The bolded are the important parts, clearly suggesting that with this, Nic is a) entrusting Deidre with a job that he cannot do with anyone else and I really, really doubt it was just the job of pulling the lever, b) putting her somewhere their enemies, or rather the Enemy, capitalized, can't get to them. I have seen people here speculate that it was the church and God and stuff, but I just can't believe that. As Dresden said, only a moron would think that the Christian hell would be worse than the Underworld for Deidre, especially seeing that she probably would have fit in just fine in the Christian hell, being a Denarian for centuries and all. Alongside with Deidre's proclamation that they are doing this to save the world, makes me think that this Enemy is the same one Dresden and co are facing, meaning Mab, Marcone and Hades really and truly pissed of someone who probably would have been really useful as an ally.

That said, he still can be, since I really can't see Deidre's death as permanent with the way Nic set it up. Obviously, Deidre has some kind of job to do there and she is there so that no one can reach her and use her against Nic, meaning someone tried and nearly succeeded. Obviously, the object were important too, and I think they somehow tie into getting Deidre back. Maybe the Grail or the Shroud can bring her back or something, or it is easier, later on, to simply kick open the door into the Underworld and get back greek myth style, even if that didn't work out that well for most people, it still seems to be possible and Nic is one of the people I would believe that they could pull it off. There is no escape from the Christian Hell, but there might be from the Underworld. Similarly, the Underworld is connected to a lot of important places in the Greek mythology, so, we can expect Nic aiming at any one of these. Maybe making contact with dead greek heroes and villains, ensure their loyalty? Could be that, when the apocalypse comes, the Underworld is going to serve the same function as the Birdcage in Worm and all the badasses are going to be released or something like that. Or he needs information from someone, an alchemist or sorcerer or hero who knows the location of something or a spell or whatever. Enough possibilities, too many to accurately guess. Either way, Deidre is going to play an important role, probably coming back.

Similarly, Tessa's position was interesting. What was her deal with the work she supposedly put into for the last 1500 years? Doesn't really seem to be Deidre, seeing that it makes no sense for her to team up with Deidre's killer at the end of the book. So, something else, obviously. Like the idea that the corruption in the church is her doing but really, nothing to go by yet.

Really enjoyed the portrayal of Hades.

Murphy seemed quite changed from the last book and I still liked her here, but it seemed a bit inconsistent, especially since I thought she had been infected but obviously, that was wrong if she could wield the sword again. That said, her role as the badass normal was fantastic. Butters...well, as Lord Raine said, he was absolutely right in calling Harry out like that and behaving the way he did but I did expect an apology from him to Murphy since his actions have lead to her injury, danger to the Carpenters and the destruction of the sword. I also agree that the sword should have stayed broken for longer than 200 pages and that Butters, while showing bravery, didn't exactly do something that elevated him to that of the wielder of the sword of faith, especially since he was the one without faith into his friends the whole time and his self-sacrifice wasn't really about faith at all.

Similarly, I am really, really sick of the Star Wars references, to the point that Jim Butcher and Harry Dresden are managing something that even the prequels didn't, making me slowly dislike Star Wars. I get it, he really, really likes it, does have to be mentioned a few times every book? Lightsaber sword was just...lame and unnecessary.

I like Butters, and I liked his smarter application of certain spells and his attempt to do something about the supernatural threats with everyone else gone and Murphy not really picking up the swords, but I guess, if anything, that put him above Murphy as far as knights go. Murphy, in the end, was unwilling to use the swords unless she really, really had to whereas Butters was willing to step up to defend the innocent. That said, still don't like how he became a knight and I hope this wasn't the end for Knight of the Cross Murphy. Honestly, I don't see Butters lasting long and I have the feeling that Murphy is going to pick up that sword after his death.

As to the knights, last book, I had the theory that King Arthur might appear again, going to quote myself from that thread.

Well, I think we got more hints towards that. First, the fact that the swords can't be truly destroyed, which kinda ties into the Arthurian Legend with the whole Caliburn and Excalibur business. Both were Amoracchius and the legend fits with that. Then, we have the British guy in Demonreach, who, as he says, is in a stasis.

So, we have a British guy in an island, who feels that he has to be there, who maybe feels guilty for something.

Yeah, I'm calling it, that's King Arthur. He feels guilty for the either something we don't know he messed up, or the civil war in his lands, which happened part to his negligence and ill-suited handling of Lancelot and Guenevere's affair or he feels he has to be there because King Arthur has to be available when shit hits the fan in an apocalyptic level and seeing that he can't just pick up a coin or make a deal with the Fay or some shit like that to get the immortality needed to survive that long, he has to be in stasis in Avalon, a.k.a Demonreach. Or both. Anyway, maybe not true, but I think this could definitely be King Arthur.

Or Mordred.

With the prison being Avalon, maybe the Warden could be a form of the Lady of the Lake, although that is quite reaching. Just looking for parallels at this point.

So, what do you guys think?

By the way, remembering Butcher's quote about the sword:

Technically, it didn't get a NEW wielder but it did come off the shelf, so, kinda lied?

All that said, there was not nearly enough Molly in this book, since her new situation was the one I was looking forward to the most and that one was kinda just put off. Really wanted to see how she would interact with her parents due to that change but all we got that she didn't tell anyone, and no one noticed stuff like how she couldn't cross thresholds and had changed fundamentally.

 

Yeah. Its worth mentioning that in book 4 for example, LaFortier implies that Harry attacking the Red Court only caused a war because Harry was the official representative of the White Council at the time.

Its certainly strongly suggested that even with the White Council, the entirety of WC is not responsible for everything their members do (or the fact that Dresden was a representative would have been meaningless).

If thats true of the White Council, then it seems pretty reasonable to assume that if one of Marcone men does something while off-duty and not working for Marcone, then Marcone cannot be held responsible.

Ofcourse, I would presume its not a totally clear-cut thing since htis would allow one group to attack the other and then deny all responsibility. Presumably you would have to prove that the one that broke the accords really was acting alone or somesuch.

 

About Ascher's hotness, let's not forget that Lasciel is very, very good at illusions. She didn't provide any shape-shifting, so it's not entirely unreasonable to expect her to give Ascher a boost in looks.

And we also should be aware that it's Dresden's PoV we're working from here. Buuut yeah, you're not wrong about the amount of hotties in the series.

Even Mab would be able to cross the threshold of the Carpenter's house, hell probably even get past the angels, as long as her intentions weren't hostile. I think the rules for that are explained in Cold Days, with Cat Sith.

As for the deaths... Sometimes, characters need to die and you can't bring characters back from the dead more than VERY VERY sparingly, or it'll really screw up the storytelling.