So, even if the masquerade is wrenched open and kept open(Probably by Dark Wizards looking to take advantage of the chaos), how exactly are Muggles supposed to manage to locate magical places of residence and business, and how exactly are they supposed to prevent the relocation of such? How are Muggles supposed to force battle upon Wizarding forces?

 

Nope.

/filler

 

If you think you have a great mind-boggling idea, Knoq, here's some advice.

Meditate upon it.

Use the search function. Odds are good someone has already posted about it.

If it still seems like a good idea, then MAYBE you proceed.


On the topic: Yes, muggles would lose. Obviously. Unless some hilariously advanced tech suddenly pops up, or we nuke the entire planet. In which case we'd both lose.

 

Unless it's a tech that is magical (can affect magic, usually blocking it), there's very little muggles can do. And if they have magical tech, they aren't muggles anymore, are they?

 

I can't res those threads without incuring points, while at the same time I just gawk at some of the comments made.

Star Trek level technology or bust. Still, I would like to have this discussion again.

 

The problem with debating this Knoq, is that neither side will agree that the others points invalidate their own. I'm fully convinced that wizards would win. But there are other people equally convinced muggles would win. And no argument I make will convince them. Likewise, no argument they make could convince me.

Why is this? Because its all absolutely hypothetical. Its based on our individual assumptions of magic in the HP universe. We don't know enough about the limitations and absolutes of magic to truly be able to say whether they could do all the things they would need to do to win against the muggles in a conflict.

Personally, I err on the side of them being able to. Of shield charms being powerful enough to defeat any muggle weaponry. Of unplottable charms and notice-me-nots working against satellites.

But just as easily it could be said that such spells wouldn't work. I can't prove that they would, because we simply don't know.

Its not a worthwhile discussion to have, because there can literally be no resolution to it, other than that I'm sure we can all agree that neither side would particularly enjoy the conflict if it did happen.

 

Okay, well, I guess it has been a long time since we had this discussion in a systematic way. A lot of members who joined in the last few years haven't had the opportunity to have this debate.

Here's my 2 cents:

The debate is ideal

This debate never goes on too long before people start talking about defectors, in particular Muggleborns siding with the Muggles. I always feel like this is shifting the goalposts. When people have this debate, what they're really asking is "can magic beat modern technology?" not "can one social group beat another?".

Once you start adding social realities to the debate, you end up with two sides fighting it out, both of which have Muggles and wizards, both of which have magic and technology... and you're no longer talking about the same thing. It's like the wars from before the Statute of Secrecy, where wizards fought alongside Muggles.

Realistically, the war wouldn't get off the ground

We see in HBP the extent to which the magical community has penetrated Muggle government. In the start of HBP we see that the British Ministry is able to cancel and rearrange a telephone call from the US president to the Prime Minister at a whim. We also see that Kingsley was able to insert himself into the Prime Minister's office without anyone ever realising.

So in a sense, the magical government is already in charge of the Muggle one. They don't run things day to day, but they can apparently manipulate the Muggle government as they please.

With that in mind, it's extremely unlikely that any Muggle plan to attack the magical world would be allowed to continue to fruition. Hell, any knowledge of the magical world leaking from the Prime Minister's office would probably be prevented.

Numbers are meaningless

The issue of numbers is mostly irrelevant. Muggle armies outnumbering magical fighters would only come into play if pitched battles occurred, which they wouldn't.

If the wizards wanted to exterminate Muggles completely, that would be a problem. There's no way wizards could go around killing Muggles off one by one, and though you can imagine them creating some kind of weapon of mass destruction (e.g. some kind of poison or disease that kills Muggles), that's speculation. Of course, it's unlikely that extermination would be the wizards' goal, so this is all off the point. The wizards seem to be quite happy with separate worlds.

Wizards are basically aliens

By this I mean that the capabilities that wizards possess are basically that of an advanced technological civilisation you'd see in sci-fi. Manipulation of matter, space and time, teleportation, mind control, invisibility, control over gravity, regrowth of limbs... asking if magic can beat current technology is like asking if Starfleet can beat current technology.

Secrecy spells uber alles

This is the wizards' biggest advantage. Not being able to find or target your enemy rather hinders you ability to wage war.

The unplottable charm alone is a big block. I think people underestimate this charm in general. You cannot put Hogwarts on a map. Think about how powerful that is: you can know where the lake is on a map, you can know where Hogwarts is in relation to the lake, but you can't make the connection that Hogwarts is next to the lake on the map.

Conceptual magic

As many have noted in the past, magic seems to work conceptually, not physically.

E.g. you can cast spells on job positions, items of knowledge, names. The exception of food to Gamp's law is a human concept of food: you can transfigure a dog, but you can't transfigure a steak.

This has implications for wizards vs. Muggles.

1. Shield charms can't be easily circumnavigated with clever weapons. A shield charm isn't cast to protect against a particular defined class of things. Rather, a shield charm protects against harm in general. People in the past have said that because light passes through a shield, so could weaponised radiation. But this misses the conceptual nature of magic. Light isn't harmful, weaponised radiation is. Therefore something which protects against harm would block the latter but not the former.

2. It seems unlikely that you could get around secrecy spells with technology. The spells that prevent Muggles seeing Hogwarts do not affect the particular photons reflected off Hogwarts or anything specific like that. The spell is much more absolute: "Muggles cannot apprehend Hogwarts" becomes a new stipulated law of nature. Since the spell is conceptual, not physical, it doesn't matter if you're trying to look at Hogwarts with your own eyes or if you're looking via a satellite.

Magic is really powerful

JKR said in the latest Pottermore that magic is able to overrule "mundane nature". That solves an argument that we've had in the past a few times.

E.g. Some people have said in the past that magic brooms fly via physical thrust provided by magic. We now know that magic doesn't work that way. Magic doesn't manipulate physical forces, it overrules them. A magic broom doesn't fly via thrust, it flies because magic says it should fly and physics be damned.

This makes it pretty hard to overcome magic with physical forces. Overcoming magic with physical forces requires that magic be a force of an equivalent kind to physical forces, in such a way that they can be compared quantitatively. But that's not the case.

Of course, there are magical laws which limit what you can do with magic, so you can't summon the moon or whatever. But it's magical law that limits it, not physical law.

Likely outcome of any mass exposure of magic

Wizards convince the Muggles that their existence was an elaborate hoax, all major governments and media outlets concur on this matter. Things go back to how they were before, with a few Muggle conspiracy theorists continuing to insist that magic is real.

Wizards are stupid, but so are Muggles

Wizards' stupidity has often been used to say Muggles would win, the idea being that, though magic could beat technology, wizards wouldn't think to apply it.

But this forgets that the Muggles of the HP universe aren't the Muggles of the real world. HP Muggles are stupid too. Recall that there are no secrecy spells on the Knight Bus: Muggles simply fail to see it because it's so extraordinary that they can't comprehend it.

 

Here's the basic problem with this debate that I doubt most "Wizards Win" people really consider: what happens when the top scientists start studying Magic principles?

For example: we know invisibility cloaks make one invisible to the visible light spectrum. But what happens if you look at someone under an invisibility cloak via ultraviolet light, infrared, and so on?

And that's just for starters. I don't buy for a moment that it's impossible for Muggles to learn anything Magic with Muggle means. Magic simply has to have some reaction to non-Magic stuff. And as long as it does, Muggles will eventually discover crucial aspects to Magic, and how to turn them into useful countermeasures.

 

There's numerous problems with that:

1. Muggles can't access magic in order to study it.

2. We don't know that invisibility cloaks "make one invisible to the visible light spectrum". We simply know that they make you invisible. I doubt there is any physical principle behind the working of an invisibility cloak, but rather, it's as simple as "it's a cloak that prevents you from being seen". It seems to me that ultraviolet and infrared, if used in a technology that aids visual perception, are accordingly included within the concept of sight and thereby included in the things that invisibility cloaks veil you from.

3. Even if Muggles are able to learn magical theory (i.e. the limitations of magic), that still doesn't really help them, because they still can't use magic themselves to exploit those limitations. E.g. knowing that the shield charm cannot stop the killing curse won't help Muggles penetrate a shield charm.

 

You still don't see them, because they're under an invisibility cloak. Which makes you invisible.

 

You can't science magic because magic isn't scientific. Or at least, it doesn't follow the same rules that the regular universe does, so a muggle scientist would be at effectively stage caveman when trying to understand it.

 

Knowing your going to be killed by a beam of light, or that you're about to be mind controlled, or put through excruciating pain won't really help much.

 

Top scientists in what, may I ask? Physics? Magic doesn't obey physics. Biology? Maybe. Chemists, perhaps? Nope.

None of the laws that govern the world are applicable, and none of the experience that these scientists have will be relevant. Physics says that matter can't be created or destroyed, chemistry says that no, a bezoar does not cure all poisons and the random pieces of various animals should not twist the universe into favoring a particular person.

We assume that technology cannot detect magic because canonically, it hasn't yet. How many satellites have noticed dragons, giants, or nundus? You assume that technology will magically(ha) gain the ability to quantify magic, when it has never been demonstrated to have that ability.

In addition, HP magic operates at a conceptual level. The fidelius operates on memories, the taboo can detect words, and the curse on the defense position operates on a completely abstract level. Even if technology could reproduce the effects of certain magics such as invisibility, it would not be equivalent because technology is forced to abide by the rules and laws that govern the natural world. Invisibility could be reproduced by bending light, but the invisibility cloak doesn't bend light. It makes you invisible, in every sense of the word.

You say that the muggles will eventually develop countermeasures. Even if this is true, how quickly do you think an entirely new branch of science can be advanced? They just snag a dozen muggleborns, have them cast spells in a room full of sensors and presto they can now bypass the unplottable charm? If it were possible, it would likely take years if not decades to reach the point where they would be able to nullify wizards. This is all assuming the muggleborns who presumably change sides are proficient enough at magic to be able to reproduce the various spells and wards that would need to be addressed to launch a campaign of any substance.

The thing is, wizards are objectively superior. A wizard is essentially a muggle with the ability to perform magic. There is nothing muggles can do that a wizard couldn't replicate. This isn't the Dresden Files where computers fry when a wizard walks into the room, and the only thing holding wizards back is their decision to not advance. And why don't they choose to advance? Because there is essentially nothing that muggles have invented that wizards couldn't replicate with less effort. Computers are a bit of an exception, but even muggles haven't gotten around to all using computers and the internet. Hell, muggles haven't all gotten around to indoor plumbing and electricity yet.

 

Excellent point! And people must be aware that the books are set in the 1990s. A time when even muggles were just getting dial up internet and mobile phones were just about shrunk to a decent size.

This whole issue about how wizards are stupid seems to discount the fact that we are seeing the 'idiots' at play. We have no knowledge of what goes on in the Department of Mysteries or the Obliviaters. I'd bet those guys wouldn't be classed as stupid. Their job demands they keep up to date with muggle surveillance technology.

The wizards' skill with creating dimensional pockets alone could be used devastatingly. One could transport anything through any muggle security. But I'd agree, if the wizards went to war with muggles, there would be only one option, genocide. Releasing a few nundu on muggle populations would be a start.

 

Heh, I was thinking that they should pour a lot of Draught of the Living Dead into water supplies as a start.

Also, I know JKR said that magic is genetic so I was wondering if the gene that makes one have magic is itself magical (so-as Taure says -muggle scientist wouldn't be able to find it.)

 

See, stuff like this reminds me how, when it comes to Magic, I'm fully on Arthur Clarke's side: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

I refuse to buy the argument that it's impossible for non-Magical people to possibly ever learn or understand Magic. I also refuse to accept that Magic "just is". Would anyone seriously argue the Internet "just is", and quickly dismiss any attempt to understand it as impossible? Of course not.

I'm not saying it would be easy for Muggles to understand Magic, or that they will immediately figure out crucial information. But as long as someone can apply the Scientific Method to Magical stuff, Muggles would do everything they can to figure out how the hell Magic works.

So going back to the Invisibility Cloak thing. Why is no one curious what happens if the Invisibility Cloak is viewed via Infrared or Ultraviolet light, and simply assume it will automatically make you invisible because "Invisibility Cloak"? And assuming it would still be invisible in such circumstances, can you do something that neutralizes the Invisibility Cloak itself? We know from Canon that most of them do eventually grows old and starts failing, so you could start with that. Sooner or later, someone will find an effective way to make Invisibility Cloaks useless. And that's just for starters. And with plenty of people probably put on working this kind of stuff in the event of such a War, you would be surprised how much progress they would make.

 

The main thing I have seen as a pattern is a desire to inflict non-canon limitations upon Magicals and Magic, and make assumptions that Magic somehow must obey known laws of physics....despite that fact that it is magic.

JK Rowling recently confirmed something which was blindly and brutally obvious regarding how magic relates to the natural world. Magic is above and beyond, plain and simple

This is stretching it a bit and is something that, to a point, I would conceed because it is irrelevant. Should a modern day Main Battle Tank be able to blast away most personal Protego's and other shield charms of said level? I would argue yes. But that says it all right there. When you need MBT level of Direct Firepower to kill enemy infantry, you are kind of fucked. I would also point out that after that first encounter or so....Wizards will just run away from direct confrontations. Most of them. The rest will wreck utter havoc, even with incomplete and fucked up Transfiguration and Charms abuse.

We already know they do, since GPS has been around throughout the whole Harry Potter series. And as long as someone can give directions, the Unplottable deal can be worked around. The GPS project was started in 1973 and became fully operational in 1995. And satelitte coverage existed during that time. If something prevents the naked human eye from seeing it through....fucking bullshit magic, satelittes and such are not going to do any better. Even if they do, the Muggles looking through the screens would most likely still be affected.

See above

Oh but there is, and even if you say that Muggle can defend against Imperious through sheer force of will, and can be trained against Legilimency with primitive Occlumency, it still doesn't prevent a Wizard or Witch going to Oil Refineries and Transfiguring random bits and pieces into random bits of stuff it shouldn't be, and effectively taking that plant offline. While Wizards and Witches might require traveling to the location before hand, maybe, capturing them and stopping them is damned near impossible.

And that is the problem. Even aside all the truly assholish bullshit, Apparition and Portkeys alone just completely destroy any ability to force battle. There will only be fights when the Magicals want them. Otherwise, the Magicals just run away. This was always the real, underlying problem that pro-muggle victorists could never answer or even suggest a counter for.

Let's give the Muggles on even further, and make shit truly difficult for Wizarding kind, and say that now, Muggle Repelling Charms are defunct, as are Unplottables, and just to twist the knife, so are Fidelius Charms. Along with Legilimency not being 100% and Obliviation losing effectiveness and being a bit pointless, and Imperio not working and being resisted due to....ancient magics protecting heads of state or something. Just take away the bits that make the whole fight a farcical curbstomp.

Congratulations, you have narrowed down the locations the magical population could hideout at to the entire globe. The entrance to the MoM is a Phone Booth which can be turned off, so the only way in is by magical means. And even if that is discovered, they can in fact, just move. What with being intelligent humans with brains. You have to take away Apparition, Portkeys and the Floo as well. And at this point, you aren't even fighting Harry Potter.

You are going to be fighting techno-mage Islamic State. Now with more blatant miraculous bullshit, such as SUVs expanded to hold entire platoons, charmed to fly at over 100mphs, with Disillusionment Charms, and enchantments so the engine doesn't blow up, and refilling charms so it never runs out of fuel. And for truly quick deployments, just take BMWs, and blitz about on the road at 150-200mphs, with all sorts of physics defying bullshit charms.

Or just take the Knight Bus. :facepalm

If Conjuring Spells could conjure bullets, even ones that only last 10 seconds, and have them triggered when a real bullet is fired, then you have Miniguns with no ammunition limits and Featherweight Charms.

Like, take away all the horrendously gamebreaking shit, and you realize that Harry Potter Magic is still flabbergastingly broken and overpowered.

Why? Because its imba otherwise?:facepalm

No, because Magic is quite literally....MAGIC! Technology isn't.

But Magic....is already magic. The kind of tech you are talking of, is Star Trek technology, where they alter physics but with great effort.

Be as butthurt as you wish, but you have basically just admitted that until technology has advanced to the point where we can alter physics and play pretend magic, then Magic wins. Because it is already MAGIC!

 

Maybe you should read the SCP Foundation wiki. It may give you a rough idea of what it's like to study the unknowable using science (memetic agents = conceptual magics, etc.)

 

...This isn't fucking 4chan Knoq, stop posting like it is.