I say let Kakashi pass on the sharingan. Kill Sasuke.

 

lol. I find Sasuke's selfish arrogance a refreshing change of pace for the series. In a world of idealistic goody two shoes he's the one guy who doesn't give a f***.

 

Not really, Because Sasuke is the character that all the uchiha fanfaggots cream their little uchiha-themed underwear over. It's because of his popularity that the Sharingan and the fanfaggotry have taken over the manga.

 

I don't think the fans majorly altered Kishi's plans. He obviously had Sasuke's backstory planned out from the beginning and we see that Obito is referenced as soon as Sasuke's backstory is revealed.

 

I honestly don't know what to say if you think Kishi had all this crazy crap planned out from the start. There's no arguing about the color of the sky with the blind.

 

I can assure you Kishimoto planned this all out. He even said at one point that he new the story of the Uchiha from the beginning.

 

Did I say Kishi had all this planned out from the start? I believe what I said was I don't think the fans majorly altered Kishi's plans. I then point out that a lot of the stuff with the sharingan was obviously already planned. As it is you're just making random claims about Sasuke being Kishi's reason for changing things.

 

WD is just mad that Sasuke has more character development than Naruto.

 

I personally think Naruto is just as developed a character as Sasuke.

 

Honestly I feel like Walking Disaster is ignoring the actual development in the manga for the head-canon/fan versions. By that I mean, the absolutely horrible renditions of Sasuke in fanfiction where he is either stereotyped as the evil, emo faggot. Or the fanwank of adolescent girls.

In the actual manga however, we have to remember that this is a world of deceit and treachery. You say he was offered friendship and hope and "World peace." Why should he trust a konoha shinobi to offer him that? Why should in this world of treachery, he trust the village that ordered the death of his clan. You have to understand how he was raised. Even not knowing about Konoha's part in the Uchiha death, he was taught that family came before the village. I imagine most of us would agree that our families come before our nations. He acted on that loyalty when he felt that Konoha had shown him none. And in the end, he was right.

Sasuke...out of all the people in the manga, at least remembers that he's a ninja in a world of ninjas. So he does act selfishly because it is consistent with the world that was originally created.

Please note, Sasuke is not my favorite character by a long shot..but he doesn't deserve the hatred heaped on him for illegitimate reasons. As for saying he's the same as Itachi and Obito...

Obito started this whole damn thing. Minato and Kushina? Dead because of him. Jiraiya? Dead because of him. Uchiha Clan? Dead because of him.

Itachi...he's seriously messed up. He loves his brother...and then decided to murder the whole family and mind rape him. The guy is a complete sociopath regardless of whatever the manga portrayed. He killed innocent civilians, women, children etc. all for some plan of making Sasuke hate him to be stronger? How can that be considered a decent person?

Sasuke has consistenly acted in the best interests of himself, but he has actually done more to help the war against the enemy than against it. All we are aware of what he has done is capture a portion of the 8-tails chakra (Could have been done by others), killed a few samurai, and killed Danzo.

So I think that the whole Sasuke hate is based upon Sasuke-fans/haters as opposed to Sasuke himself. Honestly the most favored Naruto fanfics are when Naruto acts like Sasuke before he left Konoha.

 

I'm not sure I agree with Sasuke being a better person than Itachi but Obito certainly has more blood on his hands and for a worse reason. All in all I don't really care if Sasuke's a good or nice person because he doesn't pretend to be one. He's never claimed that his actions are for the greater good like Obito or Nagato. Also I like the fact that he changes his life's direction on his own terms and doesn't get beaten to the path of righteousness by Naruto.

 

I'd say Obito was mindraped harder by Madara than Sasuke was by Itachi, and at a worse time in their relative developments.

Itachi gave Sasuke the beginnings of strength and motivation, and set him on the path to power and agency. Madara wanted an empty puppet, and succeeded in making one out of Obito by exacerbating his anguish and despair, and he was no longer himself by the time Madara was finished with him.

Sasuke at this point is just an asshole. Obito has committed worse/more crimes, yes, but they were Madara's crimes, in essence, committed by a vessel of Madara. Sasuke has made an asshole out of himself, all by himself.

Even looking beyond the ways in which they were manipulated, we can examine their choices. When Sasuke had the chance to do good, he chose douchebaggery of his own volition and went with Orochimaru freely. When Obito had his chance, he gave his life to save his friends', and his reward? Meeting Madara. Obito's life is by far the greater tragedy, and he is far more deserving of sympathy and compassion.

 

Didn't the curse seal affect Sasuke's mind? Also looking at their choices even with Orochimaru Sasuke didn't kill anyone until Oro himself and so joining Orochimaru isn't fundamentally wrong. Killing Oro and freeing his test subjects could be considered good actions. When Sasuke had a chance to do good? Sasuke stepped up to bat for team 7 multiple times before leaving to Orochimaru. He even "gave his life" for Naruto once. All in all I still say Obito trails behind.

Also I'm not sure how much of an empty puppet you can claim Obito to be. He was back talking Madara when he arrived and even betrayed him to make himself the Jinchuuriki. Also taking over Mizu and running it into the ground seems more like revenge for Rin then anything actually necessary for Madara's plan.

 

Is it sad that I find myself more interested in the new naruto fighting game that has all new animated scenes than I do the actual manga? I mean, it has a story detailing how Nagato and Obito actually formed akatsuki. In the sense of collecting 10 S-rank ninja into one group acting towards a relatively common goal instead of that whole Danzo kills Yahiko thing.

Well that and unlike the manga right now I would actually have fun with the game.

 

Isn't that the game with the giant mecha fox Naruto robot as an enemy boss?

 

Also, looking at this from an outside perspective...why is joining Orochimaru necessarily bad? Because we're 'told' that Konoha are the good guys? Yeah, Orochimaru isn't exactly the nicest person, but neither is Konoha.

Even without the curse seal thing, it's not necessarily a decision I can fault Sasuke for.

I strongly disagree that Obito was 'mindraped' by madara. Was he manipulated? Yes. However I would say Itachi's was just as bad.

And honestly...how is Sasuke an asshole? Just because he's not buying into the Talk no jutsu of Naruto? He wants to destroy the Bijuu. Not such a bad idea considering all they did in the past. Regardless of Naruto's "redemption" of them..they are still beings who have slaughtered countless people.

I'll admit I think the whole become Hokage thing is insane. That said...Sasuke would make a better Hokage than Naruto. He's smarter, more disciplined, and understands the world. Naruto is best as an inspiring leader/Jiraiya type. It's two different eras essentially. The "peace" and the old way of doing things.

And considering the way it's heading towards "Sharing chakra and all understanding each other" BS, I'll take the other way where my choices are my own if I lived in this world.

 

Sasuke's consistent willingness to betray/abandon/murder his friends is what makes him an asshole. Leaving Konoha in and of itself isn't so bad, but with someone who just tried to destroy it and kill(?) the people who tried to befriend him, who were part of his team?

Itachi made him relive the death of a family that had consistently mistreated him anyway, and awoke his sharingan in the process, encouraging him to live on and grow stronger. Madara revived Obito after a heroic sacrifice just to show him the death of the person he loved most in the world apparently at the hand of the other person he'd saved, who he had given his life trying to save, which could drive a lot of people (especially a mentally and recently physically crippled child) insane, convincing him in the process that any effort on his part to improve the world would be futile. Where Itachi at least left Sasuke with some kind of motivation he could use to grow stronger, Madara killed Obito's motivation and reformed him in his own image. Itachi's manipulation did not destroy Sasuke as a person. Madara's manipulation destroyed Obito as a person. Madara's is therefore, IMO, much worse.

Even after Itachi did what he did, Sasuke had little reason to achieve his goals by throwing his friends under the bus. There was nothing Itachi did to make Sasuke not give a fuck about the lives of the people who did their best to befriend him. In Kakashi's words, Sasuke is utter trash, and Itachi had little to do with that aspect of his character. Whereas pretty much everything wrong with Obito was induced by Madara's manipulation. Before Madara, he was a good person, and almost everything after that was the product of Madara's attempt to crush his psyche.

Sasuke's motivation to destroy Konoha: They killed his family, which mistreated him personally and had been planning a coup, in response to 'oppression' (being put in charge of police forces? Is that 'oppression'? Sounds like a position of power and respect). They 'made' Itachi choose a relatively peaceful society over a seemingly misguided family coup? Not to mention it was only that way because one of the Hokage's had decided to try, by giving them control over the police, to facilitate loyalty and prevent the resurgence of Madara's bullshit attitude of 'if I can't be in charge after a democratic decision, I'm going to destroy it all'? Sasuke learns all of this and decides, on his own, that he's going to end the cycle Madara began by . . . trying to do exactly what Madara did by forcing his leadership on a population that doesn't want it?

Obito's motivation: end pain in an admittedly shitty world by allowing them to exist in a reality that indulges their basic desires, because he saw the woman he was in love with murdered before his eyes by the other person and best friend he gave his life to save, in a plot orchestrated by the person who found him as a preteen and twisted him so thoroughly that he was a totally different person. He actually thinks he's being altruistic . . . because he's beyond sanity by the time he starts working toward this plan.

Both of them have terrible ideas about how to change the world, but IMO Obito has the more legitimate excuse for his admittedly worse crimes. It's not like I'm a fan of Obito, but it's hard to hold someone whose crimes stem from being taken advantage of as a preteen as accountable as someone whose crimes stem from stupidity and being an intense asshole for reasons that have little or nothing to do with what his brother did to him or their family.

Obito, until he is manipulated, tries his best to do the right thing for the people who show him kindness and who he says he cares for. When he does the wrong thing, it's because he was a fucking prepubescent boy utterly shattered by events and the evil of a much greater mind. Did really atrocious things stemming from overwhelming trauma, but not utter trash.

Sasuke is consistently given a choice to overcome and respond to his lesser trauma in various ways, and consistently chooses to shit all over those who have shown him kindness, and who he says he cares about, until he decides he doesn't care about them at all and in many cases attempts to murder them in cold blood. Did some less trashy things that are still pretty fucked up, but has less of an excuse because his shittiness doesn't stem entirely from the trauma he's experienced. Has he experienced great tragedy? Yes. Does that tragedy explain why he's such an asshole to his friends and teammates, who are in no way responsible for what happened to him or his family? No. Utter trash.

 

...Sasuke was mistreated by his family pre-Massacre? What?

Murdering your parents and then torturing you for days by making you relive the murder of your entire family over and over again before calling you pathetic is not "encouragement to grow stronger" to anyone who isn't batshit fucking crazy.

 

Good thing he's Uchiha.

 

His father constantly belittling him despite his excellence by comparing him to his brother? Sounds like mistreatment.

Itachi calls Sasuke pathetic and then challenges him to get revenge. But their father had been making Sasuke feel pathetic as well. I'm not saying it wasn't a terrible thing, but it was clearly meant to A. awaken his sharingan and B. motivate him to acquire vengeance. As opposed to murdering him, as he was supposed to, Itachi let him live, and put him on the path to discovering the truth of what had happened, why it had happened, and perhaps changing the Uchiha legacy. He made Sasuke hate him instead of despairing over the perceived betrayal and defection of a brother he loved.

And it's not like Sasuke's parents were great people. His dad was an utter dick, and his mom let it happen. The only reason his dad ever showed him any kindness at all, as opposed to scorn, was because he found out Itachi wasn't going to join him in his coup, at which point he tried to indoctrinate the younger of his sons instead. Itachi saved him from that and from dying as the result of his father's treason, but yes, what he did was fucked up. I'm not saying it wasn't. It just wasn't as bad as what Madara did to Obito, IMO.

No one's arguing that one is good and one is bad. I'm arguing that one is bad and one is worse.