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Just How Good was Harry?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Joe's Nemesis, Sep 1, 2014.

  1. Joe's Nemesis

    Joe's Nemesis High Score: 2,058 ~ Prestige ~

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    Where do you see Harry in comparison to an average wizarding teenager of the same year? I'm not just talking about magical ability here, though that's included (and has been discussed a number of times here), but in a number of different areas, such as:

    Quidditch
    Intellect
    Raw magical ability
    Charms
    Leadership
    Dark Arts/Defense Against
    Emotion
    Potions
    History
    Flying (as opposed to actual Quidditch)
    Apparition
    Strength of personality
    Etc.

    And a follow up question: was he just an average wizarding teenager thrust into extraordinary situations (and featured a good head on his shoulders), or was there something special about him from the beginning?
     
  2. Skykes

    Skykes Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

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    I think he was average to above average in most areas and subjects. But lacking in others.

    It's the same with any student; if you are interested in a subject you will do better in it. Harry was interested in DADA, so he excelled in it(having to learn spells out of necessity also helps).

    Subjects he is not interested, or where the teacher is a negative influence(Binns, Snape) in he will do badly in.
     
  3. Zennith

    Zennith Pebble Wrestler ~ Prestige ~

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    Well, it depends on if you're just comparing him with what we saw from his classmates vs what we heard about his parents' generation. Compared to his class, other than Hermione, he was pretty clearly superior in most aspects. That said, when compared with his parents, Lupin, Sirius, Snape, etc, he was... not particularly impressive.
     
  4. Gabrinth

    Gabrinth Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    We don't know the answer to this because Rowling never cared to tell us (for good reason) how Harry compared to others. It was set in a school, but being a good student was never really part of the plot, and it's simply easier to tell us less rather than more.

    While Hermione was someone you could easily compare him to, it's an unfair comparison, because she's constantly pushed as being smarter than most Ravenclaws by Rowling, being Rowling's self-insert.

    One good hint is that Ron was given the Prefect's badge. Ron... We know why Harry didn't get it, but why not Seamus, Neville, or Dean? The answer isn't that Ron was the pinnacle of rule regulation. Perhaps it's that Ron was actually doing rather well in school. If he was doing good enough to get prefect, and Harry is assumed to be doing all around better, then Harry might have been a solid student.

    If you want to look to emotions/leadership/etc., then look no further than the DA versus Harry's childhood of neglect. Obviously Harry was something of a badass when it comes to withstanding the effects of verbal abuse. More than that, he was the undoubted leader of his cohort.
     
  5. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    My impression of Harry tends to be more or less along these lines:

    He was a somewhat natural leader, given that when he acted others tended to follow (examples include joining the DA, going to the Ministry, etc.). He was an above average student of Defense Against the Dark Arts, perhaps the best of his year, but not skilled enough to compete with serious adults. His skills on a broom, be they Quidditch or simply flying, are well above average.

    I think that any other subject in school he was probably average in (if spells were involved, like Charms or Transfiguration) and a hair below average in most others (History of magic, etc.). Harry was never a serious student, and it's not implied that he was naturally smart enough to coast without work.

    Lots of people disagree on this, and honestly I wish Harry had been better at a lot of things. But in the end I think the point of the story was in part that he was just a more or less average kid who got caught up in events much larger than he was, and did the best he could.
     
  6. Warlocke

    Warlocke Fourth Champion

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    Average in some respects, but girthy. Nothing painful, but you could definitely tell he was there.

    Skill-wise... I mean, what can I say: Nobody's born an expert, but attentiveness and consideration go a long way, and he was a very giving lov-

    Wait, what's this thread about again? :confused:
     
  7. Download

    Download Auror ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Quidditch - I always got the impression that Ginny and Harry were comparable in quidditch. Seeing as she became a pro it fair to say Harry was pretty damn good.
    Intellect - Difficult to say
    Raw magical ability - High, he got incredible difficult magic like the Patronus charm very quickly. His only failing was that he wasn't very studious.
    Charms - We hardly ever see him using charms even though he got an EE in his OWL. Personally I suspect that was a failing on JKRs part; she could have had Harry use charms in fights.
    Leadership - Above average but not exceptional. I think most of his leadership ability in fights came from his fame and experience in fighting.
    Dark Arts/Defense Against - Difficult to say because they had so many awful DADA teachers. We know in comparison to his classmates he's good but he might not be that spectacular compared to someone with a proper DADA education
    Emotion - Piss poor. It was obvious people like Malfoy and Umbridge were trying to wind him up and he feel for it every time. Most people should have figure that out after a few years.
    Potions - Good, skill is hampered by Snape breathing down his neck though.
    History - Awful
    Flying (as opposed to actual Quidditch) - Well he wasn't killed by the Horntail so I must say he's pretty good. We don't see much flying outside of quidditch though.
    Apparition - We don't know enough about apparition to work that out. I know fanon likes 'silent' apparition and such but there is non of that in canon. At least he never splinches himself.
    Strength of personality - Strong when you ignore how easily people wind him up.
     
  8. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Er ... especially The Heir, you do remember that we were given the OWL results in HBP, yeah?

    Harry's results:
    Ron got 7 OWLs as well, but no Outstanding. And Hermione had 10 OWLs, all Outstanding except for the E in Defence. And from all we know, I think it's pretty safe to infer that Harry is the best in his year in Defence.

    And as for how that compares to adult wizards, you don't need to look further than "most adults can't perform a Protego-charm" and "a Patronus to drive back a hundred dementors". So there is something to Harry -- enough of a something that for FF, you can get away with basically all reasonable characterisations (i.e. making him more powerful than god is boring anyway).
     
  9. Invictus

    Invictus Master of Death

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    Quidditch: Professional without a doubt. Prbaby the best during his whole term and before Charley, s definitely one of tthe best in the UK when he graduated. But not World Class just yet, Krum who was 3 years older outclassed him heavily.

    Intellect: Smart, but not notably or didn't know how to use it. He is smarter than Ron, that is averagge.

    Raw magical ability: I'm with Taure on this, mostly,.

    Charms: Average, or just didn't like it.

    Leadership: A natural leader, with charisma. He knows how to follow, but when he is forceful and wants to lead, he loses to Dumbledore on that department.

    Dark Arts/Defense Against: A natura genious in Taure's canon.

    Emotion: Worse than Dresden. Impulsive and naive. Hotheaded. Wangsty. Low self-steem. A normal young man thinks himself immortal, not Harry's case.

    Potions: Good. Maybe Very good.

    History: No fair way to judge it. I can sympathise with him on this, a shitty teacher makes you hate anything. We don't know how he sees history past his novelty interest in book 1.

    Flying (as opposed to actual Quidditch): What we could see, really really good. Again, a natural genius.

    Apparition: no fucking way to know, buuut I think apparition is just that.

    Strength of personality: He is charismatic, but at the same time withrawn and not social at all. His lack of socia skills is evident, as his lack of interest in pat basic socialisation. He isn't friends with most of his classmates, anyone outside his house until 5th, and just one person at that, and not friends with anyone in the Quidditch team that played with him for 5 years. Even with the Weasleys he is friandly with Fred and George, maybe friends, and Gfinny, again, only in 5th year. And that's only cemented after the Department. The boy needs life or death situation to become friends with someone.
     
  10. Joe's Nemesis

    Joe's Nemesis High Score: 2,058 ~ Prestige ~

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    I have to admit, I'm surprised at how many people think he's good at Potions. Granted, he had a bad teacher throughout most of his education, but he still passed that part of his OWL exams.

    However, what we get in HBP seems to be more of Harry getting a fortuitous set of circumstances falling his way. We're not told how much Snape's hand-written notes increased the margin of error for Harry. So, it could likely be that he was still average at Potions, but because he had a better set of notes than everyone else, his potions ended up at the top of the class.

    As for the Patronus, though we're told not everyone can cast one, on the other side—if I remember correctly—everyone in the D.A. could cast one by the end of OotP. That, then, speaks as much or more to a desire to learn how, than to the ability. Just like his father and learning how to be an Animagus.
     
  11. esran

    esran Professor

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    I always assumed the reason most people couldn't cast a patronus is because
    1. Dementors aren't considered a threat, the ministry claims to have perfect control over them.
    2. Lethifolds aren't native to Britain.
    3. Only the order knows it can be used to send messages.
    4. Fear of consumption by maggots.
     
  12. Perspicacity

    Perspicacity Destroyer of Worlds ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Only the Order is weird enough to use a magical flame-thrower to send Morse Code.
     
  13. Atum

    Atum DA Member DLP Supporter

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    In canon, Lupin seems to suggest the Patronus Charm is inherently difficult to perform, not just that it has limited utility/is mostly useful under extreme duress.
     
  14. Otters

    Otters Groundskeeper ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    To be fair, the Patronus Charm seemed to be less a way of sending messages than a magical Caller ID. Voldemort's crowd were all over intercepting mail, just like the anti-Dumbledore magical government before it.

    Anyone could fake a letter. A patronus is highly individual, and could not be replicated by the same simple spells which could, say, mimic someone's handwriting or voice.

    And I partly disagree with Harry's leadership skills. Because of who he was, the leadership role was pushed upon him. He was pro-active and assertive enough to fill the role, but that was more a compatible personality than any predisposition towards leadership. Harry tends to do his own thing and others gather around him. Maybe this is splitting hairs, though.

    I haven't read the books in a while, so my memories are a bit slushed up by fanfiction, but one of Harry's strongest characteristics is his wit. Particularly in the early books. He didn't cower from Dudley. He snapped off a quip, then legged it so he wouldn't get hit. Or sat on. I'm not sure if this dwindled later on, or I just don't remember it so much. There were definitely some gems in later books, mind you.

    "You don't have to call me sir, professor." is one of my favourites. Quoted it at an oppressive bigjobs once, back when I was a ragtag schoolboy who refused to shut up, sit down, and obey my alleged betters.

    "Quotation is an acceptable substitute for wit." - Oscar Wilde and a fuckload of other writers
     
  15. Lord Raine

    Lord Raine Disappeared DLP Supporter

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    Seeing how one Greek Wizard could turn his Patronus into a giant and smash buildings apart and uproot trees with it, I doubt the spell is in uncommon use because of limited utility.

    The Patronus falls into the same category as being an Animagius. It's a really difficult piece of magic to get down properly, and though it has a lot of potential utility, most wizards can't be bothered to learn it, because they simply don't see it as a worthwhile investment of their time.
     
  16. A.K.$J6-J5

    A.K.$J6-J5 Seventh Year

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    I'm sure that's Fanon and not Canon, you might be mixing up the lexicon with the wiki with the movies
     
  17. Dark Syaoran

    Dark Syaoran No. 4 Admin

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    Sesc pretty much nailed it. When you consider the fact he also had to put up with Snape in Potions and still managed an E? That is pretty impressive. Sadly, what we see in the books is probably 1% of the time he spends in classes. What we get in the books are the important parts of each year, we don't get everything. Everything gets slightly skewed when in that 1%, you often have Hermione telling them off for not reading this, or not doing their homework, or whatever. It gets further skewed when the movies took things that Harry did and gave them to Hermione's character, information learned or actions taken. People tend to remember things that happened in the movies much more than in the books, unfortunately. Harry and Ron both are meant to be above average, but you can understand why it might not feel that way.

    Taure and I had a conversation about this once on IRC.
    I always felt this was overblown a bit. While we get some characters talking about how good James was at Transfiguration, and Lily at Charms, and a few of them become animagus, what else was there? They became animagus to help Lupin. They had a reason to do it and that is surely impressive. Even Peter manged, with a lot of hard work and some help. Just like Harry learned the Patronus Charm, because he had a reason to and he was talented enough at 13-years-old to pull it off. I honestly don't think there is a gap, at all. Snape was obviously extremely talented at potions, however. Good enough to change instructions and find better ways. He also knew a crap ton of spells, though he grew up knowing he was a wizard.

    I think the true gap is between Tom Riddle and Harry at the same ages. I don't think anyone would deny that.
    That is the point, however. Harry doesn't like to lead, doesn't want to lead, but it is thrust upon him and he does it, and finds that he is good at it. It is more 'lead with actions' rather than 'lead with words'. Harry does things naturally that inspire others, even when he isn't intending them to. Dumbledore even mentions this in Deathly Hallows, when they meet after Harry dies.

    Direct quote from Dumbledore.

    "Would I?" asked Dumbledore heavily. "I am not so sure. I had proven, as a very young man, that power was my weakness and my temptation. It is a curious thing, Harry, but perhaps those best suited to power are those who have never sought it. Those who, like you, have leadership thrust upon them, and take up that mantle because they must, and find to their own surprise that they wear it well."

    This was Harry and Dumbledore talking about Dumbledore being asked to become Minister for Magic, for context.
     
  18. Zennith

    Zennith Pebble Wrestler ~ Prestige ~

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    Well, Snape when he was Harry's age invented a shit ton of spells, as evidenced by HBP, after all. Then there's the Marauder's Map, which seems like something pretty well beyond Harry's ability. Also, we have evidence of Lily and James defying Voldemort over and over again (thrice defied, etc) without the benefit of brother wands - granted, we don't know those exact circumstances, but still, there's enough evidence that of the Marauders + Lily + Snape, the only one of them who doesn't seem to have been demonstrably superior magically to Harry is Peter, and even then we can't be sure - throughout the books Peter actually pulls of a crazy amount of impressive things.
     
  19. Lord Raine

    Lord Raine Disappeared DLP Supporter

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    It's canon.
     
  20. Zennith

    Zennith Pebble Wrestler ~ Prestige ~

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    It's fake/bullshit canon, really.
     
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