Try me. How bad could it be?

 

That was the only thing I liked about that story. Sure, kidnapping them is bad, but at least its not murder. So that's an improvement over canon Voldemort right there.

 

Pagans good, Christian bad is the only cliche that this story has (in my opinion), that it did not create for the rest of fanfiction.

It looks like Remus/Sirius, but it is not. They are extremely close but are not lovers.

I don't get your "hating muggles but can be lesbian or gay..." You can love lesbians and hate black people in the real world... Why can't you hate muggles because they are weak and lack magic, but can't get along with gays? In fact, that whole argument is weird. Voldemort won, propaganda is everywhere. It makes sense that interacting with muggles is illegal and wrong in their society. That is the whole point. Mr. Weasley was arrested because he kept interacting with muggles after he was told not to, and Molly couldn't feed the whole family so social services split them up.

It's pretty logical and quite real world like.

Ron is bashed at the beginning but there is a reason if you keep reading. He grew up without his father, hating Voldemort. Ron is just an ass in this fic, its not bashing.

I will agree with Zennith that it jumps ship by year five. It's still good but really bazaar. Completely diverges from canon (as in not following the basic plot lines like year three). Years three and four are my favorites.

 

I think you're using 'cliche' wrongly in a lot of places there.

Unless you're reading a swathe of fanfiction from places even I daren't tread.

 

As I understand it, homosexuality was tolerated in a number of pagan cultures. It wasn't until Christianity came around in these palces than it because a big no-no.

It's quite plausible for most magicals to not be overly fond of Christians and at the the same time follow some pagan beliefs.

 

it is in the library with 146 votes and a 4.23 average rating. Clearly a lot of people disagree with you.

I disliked The other side of the Coin and couldn't even finish it, but I wouldn't call it a piece of shit since apparently a lot of other people liked it.

 

How is that plausible? In the books we see magicals being completely non-religious except for celebrating Christmas secularly. They sort of know that souls and the afterlife exist, which kinda makes religion pointless.
edit: The closest thing the magical world has to religion is Divinations.

 

First of all, I'm fairly certain it was mentioned somewhere that Sirius and Remus are a couple.

Second of all, the complete acceptance of gays and lesbians bothers me for the simple reason that it is a very modern, muggle thing.

Back in pagan times, people understood gay sex strictly in terms of penetrating and being penetrated. It was understood that the man was being the man by penetrating someone, while the woman (either an actual woman or the submissive man) was the woman being penetrated. Older men with younger boys, masters, with slaves, and so on. It was perfectly fine to be the penetrator, while being penetrated was something looked down upon. Julius Caesar, for example, was mocked because of rumours a foreign king penetrated him. This was also understood as something sexual only, with men fully expected to eventually marry and have kids with women.

Lesbians, meanwhile, was beyond their comprehension, because there was no penetration going on between them.

Maybe if they had that kind of thing going on, I could buy things a bit more. Have people accuse Dumbledore of sleeping with Grindelwald (with the former as the submissive one), spread rumours that Voldemort is sleeping with Harry (similar to how people thought Julius Caesar was sleeping with Octavian to explain the latter's rise to power). That could make things interesting, and keep with the interest in paganism. Instead, you have the extremely modern notion of gay and lesbian couples not only being recognized as fully equal with straight couples, but allowing them to adopt and raise kids without anyone batting an eye. It just rubs me the wrong way that a society so anti-Muggles would do something so explicitly muggle.

Speaking of muggle, why the hell are cars so freaking ubiquitous? For a society obsessed with how Muggles are bad, they sure do like using one of the more obvious aspects of Muggles far more than their Canon counterparts ever did.

And I get that Voldemort won and propaganda is everywhere, but shouldn't Harry be able to see through all of it? He knows damn well how horrible his regime really is: that they kidnap muggleborn children from their families, force said families to forget they ever had the kid, force said kid to forget most aspects about his family, force muggleborn kids to be forever given a second-class status, even if they spent most of their lives a part of powerful/influential Pureblood families (like Hermione with the Malfoys), force any muggleborns who aren't considered powerful enough and squibs to do all the manual labour as part of third-class citizens instead of just letting them make a life for themselves outside of the Magical World, destroy families like the Weasleys when all Arthur did was do some tinkering in his shed, Voldemort being partially an insane monster, and creating an Army (there is only one reason why he would need an Army, and it isn't good). But instead of distancing himself from Voldemort, the man who did all this terrible stuff, he practically worships him. I'm not saying Harry has to consider Voldemort his sworn enemy, but being distant from the man would make more sense.

Oh, the Fic is totally Bashing Ron. I don't know what you're reading, but I don't know what else to call what the Author is doing to Ron in this Story. He is the only Weasley kid described in a negative light, along with the only Weasley in Slytherin. Even though the rest of his brothers ended up in the exact same situation as him, he is the only one to react that way. He is insanely bigoted towards muggleborns. He is reduced to one of Draco's henchmen, on par with Crabbe and Goyle in every way.

If you call that being an ass and not Bashing, I do wonder how far Ron has to go before you would call it Bashing.

 

Congrats, the start of Other Side of the Coin IS shit. If you think so you can say so, who cares what other people think?

And I'd argue that most of those votes come from early on in the thing, before it spawned and ballooned into something completely different, completely bizarre, and completely masturbatory.

 

I've read the whole thing though my enthusiasm has waned as the word count has gone up and I'm pretty sure that Sirius and Remus aren't a couple.

Your whole spiel on homosexuality in pagan society is pretty much useless considering northern pagans(Germanic and Celtic) don't really have a lot in common with southern pagans(Greek/Italian and Punic) except they all have a pantheon of gods. Talking about Caesar is completely irrelevant and furthermore is merely anecdotal of how ancient society treated homosexuals. There's a huge difference between the aristocracy/upper class and the large agrarian lower class.
To think that tolerance of homosexuality is something inherently Muggle seems like a somewhat silly notion, since you don't really know anything about how they are treated in magical society. J.K.R. never touched upon it as far as I'm aware.

 

The fact that Rita was implying Dumbledore was gay but at the same time not calling him a disgusting bastard for it in my mind makes me feel that male homosexuals at least are tolerated.

 

Because modern notions of homosexuality are a rather modern phenomenon.

For most of human history, even the most tolerant societies viewed it as a strictly sexual thing, with the understanding the ideal was still a man and a woman (or multiple women, with polygamous societies). Not that many societies could even comprehend the idea of lesbians, since most people believed sex relied on penetration. The idea of two men or two women marrying, having children, and overall being treated exactly like heterosexual couples would simply boggle the mind of pretty much everyone until a few decades ago.

I'm not saying the Wizarding World (both in Canon and Fanon) are downright bigoted towards gays and lesbians. I'm saying it doesn't make sense that it would reach the point of gay marriage and gay adoption, which no matter how you look at it is a modern phenomenon.

And as for the Dumbledore bit, Rita also implied that he and Harry had a "strange" relationship. Gee, what kind of relationship did Rita think an older gay man had with his young prodigy?

 

Well, now I can conveniently expand a list of people with incredibly poor taste.

Give Zennith a thumbs up if you agree with him. Now...


HP Book Series-Snape openly favors Slytherin. Boo fucking hoo.

HP Book 1.

1. Severus Snape is a bit snarky with Potter, pointing out he is a celebrity. Gives him a bit of a review. Snarks off about how he probably didn't even crack open a book before coming to Hogwarts. Literally, nothing especially wrong happens, Harry mentally claims he gave his books a looking, but he doesn't even answer the one regarding Wolfsbane. Oh, and Snape only docks a point. For Harry being a smartass. Funny, but strict teachers not appreciating cheeky students is neither new nor exceptional.

2. Gives Ronald Weasley slight nudge on the wrist for attempting to jump on D. Malfoy. No detention or nothing, just five measly points. For attempting to physically assault a student.

And that's basically it.

HP Book 2

1. He threatens expulsion after Harry and Ron nearly get themselves killed, and see my sig, and horrifically damage school property, all while behaving EXACTLY like a showboating, half witted idiot, fame loving celebrity that Snape had stereotyped him as.

There is literally nothing unreasonable over giving Harry and Ron the 3rd degree over that bullshit. "Let's steal a car". Yeah, it isn't too unrealistic for them to do something like that, after all, that's how Harry ended up at the Burrow. But that's no excuse for not at least trying to use Hedwig.

And yes, he damned near flips his lid when they essentially get away with it scott fucking free, no points lost, and a detention, just one, not even worthy of the name. You know, its probably this incident, more so than any prejudice from before hand, that permanently burned into the mind of Severus Snape that Harry Potter was, in the Wizarding World, a spoiled little shit. So keep this in mind. Also, Snape again demonstrates a flair for the dramatic(in universe, really its JK Rowling but whatever)by waiting until Ron and Harry have gotten their hopes up thinking he was sick, quit or fired to join their little conversation.

From this point forward, Snape has no reason to treat these two with any sort of fairness, if only to give them some sort of punishment for that incident.

2. Snape is there when Ms. Norris is petrified, and shockingly enough, actually helps to establish Harry Potter's alibi. On an unrelated note, according to CoS, Percy, a Prefect, actually CAN deduct House Points. Huh. Page 158 of the paperback. American Edition. Back on track, yes, Severus attempts to get Harry kicked off the Quidditch Team.

But then, he still hasn't actually been punished for the Car Incident has he? Not with anything worthy of the name "punishment". Oh and he bitches at Lockhart regarding Potions.

3. Harry Potter sets off explosives in Potion's class, necessitating emergency care from Snape. Gee, I wonder why he would be pissed. Of course, he doesn't catch anybody, with this or the Boomslang, but its an awful coincidence which side of the classroom got the explosions. And we, the audience, damned well know who did it. And we damned well know that Snape is right in suspecting them later on, for one reason or another. Even though it turns out to be someone else.

4. Snape uses a basic defensive spell, one that goes on to be Potter's signature spell. He then breaks up the Trio into pairs that they might actually, you know, try and duel. This bit ends in a minor disaster, but fuck it, kids gonna be kids. He is the one who actually stops there little duel with a Finite Incantatem. Then, he is also the one who vanishes the snake. Possibly might have given Malfoy the idea. Possibly. Non-confirmable.

Looky here, being an effective teacher, wrangling children effectively, and doing his best to prevent serious harm. Wow. Such terrible.

5. Snape joins in on the haranguing of Lockhart. Whooped dee doo

Book 3

1. Snape has a look of loathing for Lupin. Wow. Well since he nearly got fucking eaten by Lupin, just a mite understandable. Still, Snape made his Wolfsbane Potion. Without fail. It's on Lupin that he didn't take any before heading out to the Shack that night.

2. Oh no, Snape has Weasley help Draco with his potions, and, AGHAST, makes him face the consequences of not doing it right. Life lesson there to be honest. Just because you don't like the job doesn't mean you shouldn't do it right.

And then he makes Potter help too.

3. Just a few paragraphs down, and he shits on Neville for being utterly incompetent at potions. Making an example of hilariously poor students isn't that bad. And who gives a honest fuck about a damned toad? Shitty taste in pets, would not sympathize with. And he docks some points because Granger let Neville use her as a crutch after being explicitly told not to do so. Fuck it, maybe is his dumbass toad had died, Neville might have atleast tried to improve. Goddamn, Potions has to be the easiest damned class of the curriculum, you literally just follow written instructions. That's it. No mysteries. No problem solving until the later years.

I ain't feeling sorry for Neville. But congratulations, we found a moment of Snape being a bit of a dick.

4. Snape mentions the possibility of Lupin helping Black. Frankly, this is a perfectly legitimate thing to mention, especially with his knowledge that Lupin and Black were once very close friends.

5. Snape decides to educate the class on Werewolves, so that they could recognize what Lupin was. Sure, he has a grudge against Lupin, but its also a perfectly legitimate safety concern, and the motivations are only half as important here as in other areas. Yes, he is terse, and irritated, but dear lord, he has a good damned reason for being so. Especially since when it counts, Lupin proves he can't be trusted to always take the Wolfsbane Potion.

Yes, he ignores Hermione, the know it all, but this is actually again common practice, to encourage other students to provide answers and know them, instead of simply relying upon a walking library. He also docks Harry five point when he doesn't sit down when told to. So?

Oh and he takes five more points from Hermione for speaking out of turn. Again, basically nothing particularly out of the ordinary in regards to teaching a class. Its typical for 1 or 2 students to be relied upon to know the answers, these students often get passed over, in hopes that someone else gets to answer for once.

And Ron gets a detention for smarting off and missing this. Snape is gently encouraging the rest of the class to read a bit themselves and volunteer themselves. And frankly, I'd reckon after a decade of teaching, he might just be tired of know it all students.

6. Snape encounters Harry and Neville, and sends them back to Gryffindor Tower. Encounter is Neutral.

7. After the funny incident at Hogsmeade, Snape catches up with Harry to discuss what D. Malfoy saw. As in, his head floating in mid air. He damned well knows that if Harry's head was there, so was the rest of him. Then he grills him a bit about how half the damned country is trying to keep him safe, but Harry Potter apparently gives no shits. And mentions the uncanny resemblance. Let's hark back to Book 2, where Harry Potter goes full jackass with Grand Theft Auto. And Snape continues to dress Harry down. Harry screams and yells, losing it a bit, understandable given his age and issues, Snape corrects Harry's notion on what happened regarding a life debt. Then makes him turn out his pockets.

At this point, Snape hasn't yet given Harry a punishment. Even when he finds the Zonko's, he doesn't snap off a punishment, and lets Harry get away with his lame ass but typical excuse.

Ultimately, Harry gets away with it wit the timely arrival of Ron. But Snape basically did nothing wrong, as a teacher or concerned adult. Hell, when the Map starts insulting him, he could have just confiscated it and given Harry detention or docked points. But Snape....basically lets Harry get away with it.

8. Next time we see Snape, its at the Shack. He introduces himself, he shortly explains the Cloak....

Then, his priority is revealed. He has brought some Wolfsbane Potion. Snape is being a good colleague, and frankly a good man. His first priority is everyones safety here. He mentions how he talked to Dumbledore, and such, and he and Lupin get distracted with their own bullshit.....but why doesn't Lupin take the Potion first and argue later?

Either way, they get distracted, an argument occurs, a Snape ends up unconscious.....and Lupin again forgets to take the potion. Yeah, Snape isn't perfect in this scene, but its Lupin's fault that he nearly killed some kids that night. Twice, no thrice over.

I believe after this Snape is angry that Black got away. But he let's slip that Lupin is a werewolf.

Fuck it, who can blame him?

Book 4.

1. Neville melts a sixth cauldron, gets detention from Snape. Wow. Such Meanie.

2. Snape forces them to research antidotes as homework. He gets them to take it seriously with threats of poisoning. Wow. Good motivation brah.

3. Snape states quite factually Potter's flouting of rules, laws, and general cockery. Literally nothing wrong here.

4. Apparently, he and the other Slytherin fuck with Harry a little more after he gets chosen as another champion in Potions. Wow. Such horrible.

5. Ah yes, the incident in which Hermione got hit with some stray spellfire. Yeah, woopee, a whole 2nd incident in which Snape is an out and out asshole. Hermione of course runs off to Pomfrey as well. Then Harry gets called for the photo shoot.

6.At this point, I got tired of scanning the books. IIRC, Snape also gets pissy about the Gilly Weed in this book, and then later returns as a spy in Dumbledore's service.


There you go. Like, two incidents of actual assholery. The rest is mostly defensible.

Now again, do me a favor a give Zennith a thumbs up if you think that one of the best, most epic HP Fanfictions in the fandom is bad or actually poor. I desperately need a convenient list of "People with shit taste."

Also, lemme know if you like the works of Garth Ennis. Same list.

---------- Post automerged at 02:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 PM ----------

Nice, Firefox ate my post a third time...

---------- Post automerged at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------

Ron Bashing isn't there, its simply a story of Ron, same kid who had issues with how poor he was, and who had issues being the youngest son. Ron also helps smuggle Hermione out of the country while commenting on London and the Muggle world. In a postiive fashion

---------- Post automerged at 02:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------

Ron Weasley ends up as an accomplished rival to Harry Potter, does something very foolish, but again, understandable once you read the story, hell its hard not to sympathize with Ron Weasley. Harry helps fix it....but its too....not spoiling it.

Anyways, and the Pagan stuff? This fic does the Pagan stuff better than any other HP fanfic out there, and develops it in a truly impressive and awe inspiring way.

Yes, the fic has some odd points, but over all the story is one of if not the most well developed plots and character developments in all of Harry Potter fanfiction.

---------- Post automerged at 02:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 PM ----------

Frankly, as odd and out there as PoaDK is, anyone who thinks that quality of the fic is anything but absolutely in the Top Tier of all HP Fandom, is someone who should be duly and completely ignored, as they obviously have horrendous taste, and more importantly, couldn't sniff out a good fanfic if it cockslapped them upside the head.

Maybe its not something you like, or of your particular taste, but saying its terrible derivative garbage is the best indicator of someone who hasn't actually read the damned thing. Usually of someone who view of "Good" fanfic is of the extremely narrow variety, "Must be Harry centric, Harry must be a Gryffindor, He must remain a good guy, no casting lethal spells, no really applying himself academically, everybody remains exactly as they were, no pairing, no major changes to the timeline, no major what ifs, absolutely everything as much as possible must be completely identical etc etc etc"

I'm shocked some people even bother to look for or even read fanfiction at all given some of the hilariously narrow constraints some of you put on yourselves.

 

Imagine someone trying to "fagdrag" Albus Dumbledore. Or basically anybody in a society where the amount of armed populace is....100%. I don't imagine too many people would speak up or care enough if Voldemort basically said "I don't give a fuck, sure they can get married." I imagine the amount of complainers and protesters would be extremely small. As would the amount of Lesbian and Gay couples themselves. So maybe they aren't loving and accepting of gays and such. But enforced tolerance is a thing.

....Have you read the canon series? Recall the mention of Obliviations?

Yeah no, the kidnapping of children, and half the other shit, can all, 100% be justified with the Statute of Secrecy. Given what Wizarding society already does as complete routine, I have problems believing they would so much as bat a fucking eyelash.

 

Yes, Knoq, how dare I have high standards? How dare people have differing opinions on writing? You're the one drawing remarkably absurd conclusions about people based solely on one bit of irrelevant information while trying to ride some kind of high horse. It's rather entertaining, really. Please, continue to show off how moronic you are.

Edit: Here's my biggest problem with the fic we're discussing. Regardless of the writer's ability to string sentences together (he isn't bad at that), he's completely incapable of writing succinctly. The piece is bloated beyond recognition. 1,253,480 words. A standard novel is about 80,000. There's a reason for this. The writing doesn't justify me caring for that long. Sorry, it just doesn't. He's no David Foster Wallace.

Second Edit: In other words, go fuck yourself.

 

No shit Sherlock. What's next, water is wet, dogs hate cats?

The ancient Greeks would like to have a word with you.(They viewed male/male relationships as "superior" to male/female and female/female) Oh by the way, you don't have to repeat yourself. All of this is again pure conjecture. This is not based in facts what so ever, especially the lesbian thing.

In the muggle world! How is it so hard to understand that there might be slight differences between those two societies? Ignoring the fact that wizards aren't really Christian or religious for that matter, there's this little thing called magic that sets them apart from those dirty, barbaric muggles.

 

Knoq that was complete Bullshit, its worse than the muggle side of Wizards V Muggles

 

Uh, no. They didn't. The Greeks held to at least three genders, possibly more. Male, female, and child. A man would take a male child under his wing and introduce to society, but one of outcomes of that relationship was that the boy would be a Paidika (in a sexual relationship with the male adult). Once the child passed into adulthood, however, such relationships ended. The adult who continued to seek adult male/adult male relationships was looked down upon.

Or, to quote Foucault:

He goes on to say,

In short, what the Greeks engaged in was not "homosexuality" as it is understood today. The issues surrounding it were a ton more complex.


As for other ancient cultures: Persian culture and specifically, those who followed Zorastrianism has strong views against homosexuality. For instance, here's a quote from the Arda Viraf where a man is journeying through hell: "I came to a place, and I saw the soul of a man, through the fundament of which soul, as it were a snake, like a beam, went in and came forth out of the mouth, and many other snakes ever seized all the limbs. And I inquired Srosh the pious, and Adar the angel, "What sin was committed by this body, whose soul suffers so severe a punishment?" Srosh the pious, and Adar the angel said thus: "This is the soul of that wicked man, who, in the world, committed sodomy, and allowed a man to come on his body; now the soul suffers so severe a punishment. "

As others have pointed out, Rome was split-minded on the issue more than Greece. In fact, to be the "receiver" in a homosexual relationship distinctly lowered your social standing.

All of this leaves only one conclusion: every culture developed their own context by which homosexuality was understood within its given gender structure.

Putting that to Wizarding Britain, it's gender structure from what we can see in the books is very much the same as Muggle Britain, male and female. From that, we can deduce that homosexuality was not something "out in the open." But, as far as whether one group or another would or would not be accepting within that world, there is no indication either way, except for very general concepts that insular, family lineage oriented societies tend to promote relationships that produce someone to continue the line.

Outside of that, it's anyone's guess.



------
Michel Foucault, The Use of Pleasure, The history of sexuality, Vol. 2, trans. Robert Hurley (New York: Vintage Books, 1990) 190-191.

 

True, I guess I should have specified. I don't think "child" is an entirely apt description for the practice of pederasty though the apprentice(or whatever) was young compared to the mentor. The practice was controversial as far as I'm aware but still pretty widespread and influential in Greek culture. What I meant by it being superior to the man/woman relationship was the purpose of each relationship.(or lack thereof) A pederastic relationship was based on appreciation of the(young) male body and some form of friendship or mental attraction. A relationship between men and women were more for breeding and physical attraction since they didn't interact very much socially.
I might not be very good at explaining this shit, it's not exactly my specialty but I will still maintain that homosexual relationships were somewhat common in Greek urban culture.
EDIT: Not that this really matters in the discussion of homosexuals in Wizarding Britain.

 

You know what, I'm going to put a stop to this. I started the whole homosexuality thing, I'm going to end it. To all those who disagreed with me: I lost, you win.

With that all said, I'm still debating on the merits of Prince of the Dark Kingdom. I can recognize it has its good aspects, I really do. But large chunks of it are just terrible.

1. Like Zennith said, it is very bloated. It is well over a million words long, and it still isn't done yet. It is a perfect example of how sometimes, less is more. Hell, some of my favourite stories out there were done in less than 1,000 words. Just because someone wrote an extremely long Fic doesn't make him George RR Martin.

2. Harry and Voldemort's entire relationship. I haven't read far enough to know what the Prophecy is, but it still doesn't seem all that good. Voldemort almost immediately decides he must be important because of the stupid fact he is a Parselmouth. Harry, in turn, is so easily convinced he must be 'friends' with Voldemort, even though he should know damn well he is an evil monster. While they fortunately are not having a sexual relationship, Tom's feelings for Harry isn't making me feel any better about their relationship.

3. Harry almost immediately becomes super BFFs with Hermione. Even if the Fic doesn't have a Harry/Hermione Ship, the two of them being super-good friends because Reasons is still old and has been done a million times before.

4. Ron, meanwhile, is the exact opposite. I get that he apparently is supposed to get better, but here is my impression of him after reading the first two books: he is a bigoted, arrogant, idiotic asshole. What makes him all the more jarring is that the rest of his family are pretty much the same, with him being the only one who changed completely. And while Harry is such a good friend with Female Jesus, aka Hermione, he is rivalled with Ron. This also has been done before, and it gets annoying. And God forbid someones tries having Harry friends with Ron and not Hermione.

5. Pagans (*cough*Wizards*cough*) are inherently better than Christians (*cough*Muggles*cough) in every way. Anyone who doesn't see how awesome Pagans are is a fool who hasn't seen the Light. Gee, I haven't seen that before.

So no, I hardly consider the greatest FanFic ever written. It's certainly a decent Fic, but not the best thing out there.