So many people invoke Occam's razor thinking it means "assume I'm right" lol.

No it's not. I outlined a load of factors which affect the situation:

These all indicate mental similarity to human beings.

If you put a human being in the same situation as a House Elf, they would want to serve too (absent mistreatment). It's not an "infinitesimal chance" that they're brainwashed, it's a near certainty. They know nothing else. It's completely unreasonable to maintain that House Elves have been given a free choice as to what they want in life and have chosen to be slaves. Firstly they haven't been given a choice at all. Secondly they're not free to make that choice, given that they've never been allowed to experience any other life.

You could only hold your position if you raised a group of Elves as you would raise a human and then they still wanted to be slaves. You can't just assume that they would so choose and use that to justify never giving them the choice.

The case of Dobby clearly shows that a House Elf can learn the desire not to be a slave. That conclusively proves that slavery is not an essential part of their nature: if something is essential to something, it cannot be separated from it.

At the most you could argue that an enjoyment of work is part of their nature. I'll accept that. But enjoyment of work does not justify slavery.

 

Short reply: there is a way around this that is respectful towards your dislike of "they just think they do". Namely: House Elves are happy, but they would be happier if emancipated.

 

It's quite simple: If a house elf can do everything he wants and needs to as a free elf, then he is without any doubt better off as a free elf since it offers him safety from a bad owner without any drawback. And we have no canon information that house elves actually need to be slaves.

 

Of course it doesn't. It just means that making a bunch of assumptions is usually wrong. I'm just saying that it's practically impossible to brainwash an entire race/group of beings, just look at actual slavery. Most human slaves didn't actually want to be slaves. The more likely scenario is that house elves are somehow predisposed to being slaves/servants.

Bullshit. Animals share a bunch of those characteristics.(Just look at dolphins or hell even dogs) Just because an intelligent race can love and hate doesn't mean they are like humans or should be treated similarly. That's the kind of thinking that'll get us exterminated when we meet aliens.

That's certainly not true. Like I said, while some slaves in societies that had a lot of slaves were fine with their lot, most wanted to be free and throw of the yoke of slavery. Even those that had masters that didn't mistreat slaves usually wanted freedom and worked for it for a long time e.g. in Roman and Greek society. It was an integral and huge part of their society and a lot of people even grew up as slaves but eventually worked their way to freedom. The house elves don't show the same drive or desire as a group that human slaves display.

Except Dobby joined the other house elves in their menial labor at Hogwarts because he wanted to. He wanted to be free because he feared and hated physical abuse and mistreatment, not being a slave. They are two entirely separate things. The pay he received seems to be symbolic of this.
I never argued that it was a physical necessity for house elves to be slaves, that'd be ridiculous.

He can't serve a master if he doesn't have one. It's pretty simple really.

PS: Sorry to Newcomb for the continued derailment of the thread.

 

Why would stuff that works disappear? Tastes are different. Slash won't disappear just because some people don't like it. Stories where canon magic is expanded, or simply reused won't disappear just because someone claims it's a cliché. There is a trunk with an expanded compartment in canon. There are canon wizard tents which offer a furnished apartment inside. Even the notoriously poor Weasleys had such a tent available. Having Harry getting his hands on such an alternative to living in a cupboard or a dinky room he was locked in is not at all a bad thing in itself.

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Uh. So, Alfred cannot serve "Master Bruce" since he is no slave?

 

Guess I have to be absolutely clear here for those who purposefully misinterpret my words. There's a difference between serving as a paid employee and serving as a slave. While I'd vastly prefer to get paid, evidence suggest that all house elves(except Dobby) view this as an insult and prefer slavery. In this sense, they can't serve properly without being slaves. I don't necessarily understand this but then again I'm not a house elf so it's not that odd.

 

There is no canon information that they actually need to be slaves. There is no indication that they cannot serve a "Master" who doesn't own them. There's every indication that elves who are abused cannot flee or protect themselves.

 

Dobby has to iron his hands or otherwise punish himself in cruel and horrible ways if he goes against his Master's wishes.

There have been human slaves throught history and time who were brainwashed into believing that they need to be slaves. That that was the only way to be. They would fight against people trying to free them. Thankfully, people persevered and now we don't have slavery although servitude still exists.

I always find the house elves situation really strange, in a way even this debate parallels how thoughts about slavery were expanded (due to the color of their skin, their ethnic background...these people aren't really humans, they are below humans, below our type of humans..indeed they are not much more then beasts, they don't have the mental faculties to do what we do so therefore we are justified in enslaving them or committing genocide against them).

 

There is a world of difference between being happy to be serving someone and being a slave.

 

You mean like Plato's Republic?

 

I mean I totally disagree with you since just because they aren't human doesn't mean they aren't sentient. In fact, to me that means the house elves are the people chained in the darkness and they just need to see the light.

However, I will stop since the next stop is where the trolls live under the bridge.

 

What exactly makes them sentient? There are talking mirrors, there are charmed brooms (both for flying and for cleaning), what exactly makes elves equal to humans? I'm not necessarily saying they aren't sentient, but it definitely isn't so just because they talk.

 

Dobby was capable of sacrificing his own life in pursuit of a cause he believed in and out of love for his friends. I don't think you can get much more sentient than that.

 

You'll note that a significant majority of human slaves do want freedom, even when they're born slaves and brainwashed (cf slavery in Antiquity, in the Middle Ages, modern slavery etc etc...). It implies that free will is one of our defining characteristics. We like freedom and we want to be remunerated for our labor.

House elves in canon do not want freedom and are insulted if you offer it to them. Except Dobby.

That said, I'm all for laws that better the conditions of living of the House elves. It's in fact in their Masters' interests to treat their house elf decently.

Sentient or not, if someone says to me that they'll serve me with unconditional loyalty until their death for free, I certainly won't say no.

 

Then again, a house elf has (presumably) never met a house elf that is not enslaved, and is raised to believe that to want otherwise is wrong (again, presumably), which is unlike the culture of slavery in antiquity.

I'm with Sesc on this one, in that there isn't any certainty to be had, however.

 

Indeed, we do not have all the facts.