Choice. That is free will.

 

Consequences he chose to suffer despite doing the right thing. Again you have overlooked the fact that they can't disobey a direct order no matter how much they want to, that to me is subjugation of their free will.

 

Well, I'm glad you cleared that up. The hundreds of great philosophers (and indeed psychologists and neuroscientists) who have grappled with the question can hang up their hats.

 

He punished himself because he disobeyed orders. There's a difference.

 

He was never ordered to 'not' help Harry. He punished himself because he was betraying his master's plans.

 

His Master's plans that were designed to in some way effect Harry Potter. Why else give the diary to Ginny Weasley, whose brother was his best friend. Let's face it, Lucius never knew what the diary would do, Voldemort never told him.

 

It's very simple. Dobby wanted to tell Harry about the Malfoys and the diary, but due to forced loyalty he had to make due scerting the edges. Which was completley pointless really, because nothing was revealed. In his head he was betraying them, but never out in the open, that is why he punished himself. If given the choice, all would have been revealed.

 

You're going off topic now. But my point still stands that they can't disobey a direct order. In other words no free will. Another case in point being Kreacher and his forced servitude to Sirius and then later Harry.

 

There is still a question of what to do with house-elves shall wizards decide to make them truly free as a race. Obviously, they can't be seen by any muggle and wizarding world is rather small.

House-elf rebellions?

 

Just because they can be free doesn't mean they stop working. Dobby is an example that free elves can work for people they like.

 

Kreacher is actually an example of house elves having free will, for instance the way in which he interpreted Sirius' orders: Sirius yells at Kreacher to GET OUT, this is a direct order but it is also an extremely vague order, get out where? In this case Kreacher took the order to get out and went to see 'Miss Cissy' and 'Miss Bella' (Narcissa and Bellatrix), enemies of Sirius - his Master.

 

You just validated my argument. Why should he have to interpret his master's orders to do what he wants? Why can't he simply say screw you ! I don't like you and I'd rather serve Bella and Cissy.
And I'm sure if Sirius had forbidden him to meet them he couldn't have done it.

 

Y'all need to make the distinction between will and free will. Merely determining your own actions is not enough to demonstrate the latter; it has an extra element, namely that the determination of your actions was "free", whatever that means.

I explored the meaning we normally attribute to "free" with respect to decisions in my previous post comparing age of consent and Elvish consent to slavery... I see no one has responded.

 

Kreacher knows that Sirius does not get on with Narcissa and Bellatrix, he also probably knows that Sirius only meant for him to get out of the room, but he still chose to go see known enemies of his Master. He chose to misinterpret Sirius' orders.

 

I agree and they still can't disobey a direct order and that is the whole point of my argument.

 

And connecting to Taure's point about children and consent, its as if Kreacher is a child and has to work around its parents rules to exhibit free choice (for exampe misinterpret rules or lie or sneak out).

 

But they can choose to disobey a direct order (if its vague enough), by deliberately misinterpreting it.

 

In a very limited way. Why does Kreacher have to reach and misinterpret to disobey the order. Why can't he choose to become the house elf of Bellatrix or Narcissa which would be in line with his own desires>

 

Because he is tied to 12 Grimmauld Place. I'm sure if Narcissa or Bellatrix were there that he could choose to obey their orders over Sirius'.

 

I've never heard of house elves being tied to a place but rather a House or lineage. Sirius would have to die for Kreacher to be able to work for another person of Black blood.

In a real world example. I work at a job at H&M. It's great but my manager leaves and the new one is a total dbag. I now hate my job, my hours, my life. I want to quit but I can't because I'm tied to HM. No that's not free will.