Again you've conveniently ignored the fact that he is getting paid and has day-offs too.

 

crimson sun06, my point is that their behaviour now is set and to re-educate them would be to reset their behaviour again. It is cruel, imo, to play with the nature of sentient beings' in that way.

The fact remains that he is still a servant, he just went from being unpaid to paid - and only 1 galleon a week and 1 day a month off at that. So now it is slave labour instead of straight up slavery.

 

House Elves procreate. Their behavior isn't genetic.

 

The argument is not that they are children. The argument is that the same factors which lead us to say children can't consent are at work in Elvish society. Note: it has nothing to do with intelligence.

 

Wasn't he offered more money and weekends off by Dumbledore and he negotiated that price. Which is where his will comes in.

 

Behavior is not controlled by genetics but it is very much affected by it. Just look at hormones and endorphins in humans. What's to say that house elves don't release their equivalent of endorphins every time they follow their masters orders, completes assignments or make their master happy?

 

That doesn't matter, as a house elf I doubt he even knows the value of money and days off.

Plus, if he has human rights - as you argue - then he has the right to a decent wage and holiday.

 

What's to say the Rotfang Conspiracy isn't really about keeping House Elves down so they don't take control of the world again as they once did as the Master Race?

 

Alright, give House elves AK47s, Das Kapital and let chips fall where they may.

 

Except you're treating them like children. Woman didn't need men to tell them they ought to have equal rights. African slaves didn't need europeans to tell them that they shouldn't like slavery. Gay people don't need straight people to tell them they should be able to get married. In all these cases society told them the exact opposite. However they wanted what their oppressors had.

You can't say that house elves are just as sentient as humans but then treat them like they need outside help to see what they really want.

 

There were in fact a large number of women who campaigned against women's enfranchisement. The number who would do so now, in an era where they have experienced enfranchised life, is much much lower.

Humans are just as vulnerable to brainwashing as the House Elves are, and in such situations do need rescuing from that brainwashing.

Removing that brainwashing isn't a "white man's burden", because you're not intervening to decide for them. Rather, you're withdrawing your already-present intervention that is preventing them from deciding.

 

The fact that they don't is the entire reason for this debate my friend. Dobby chose to work for lower wages and he isn't forced to do so and there lies the difference.

 

The point of this debate is that you are automatically assuming that they do.

As a separate race from humans, house elves have their own opinions on how things should be done and that there has been zero recorded house elf rebellions in canon should show that house elves don't have the same needs and wants as humans.

 

Yay! And it only took about an hour too!

Very true, I had misinterpreted your meaning behind 'manor' (mainly due to my current circle of friends being very ignorant of cultural significance of words such as manor in the UK, due to moving to Australia). I should have remembered that this is the place on the internet for actual intelligent conversation.

Monaco has a population of under 40,000 and the wealthiest resident is worth over 2.8 billion US dollars. And I wasn't talking about measuring wealth in billions, as going by JKR's 5 to 1 galleon to pound rate, 10s of millions would be about 100 million US dollars. And I was talking about the richest in the world, not exactly someone who could be claimed fits an economic mold. I'll repeat, Bill Gates is worth more than Switzerland (turns out I fell foul to a meme earlier, he isn't richer than all but 36, they compared wealth to GDP). I would not find it hard to imagine one wizard who is richer than any other wizard by a long margin, having tens of millions of galleons.

OK then, yeah, that stuff is just stupid.

1) You clearly have more patience than I do to still be reading those stories.
2) A shy, introvert who doesn't necessarily know much about sex having to be persuaded by his suitor that he's not doing anything wrong (while stupid) could be done somewhat sort of (maybe) realistically. Ish.

I hadn't realised what you were referring to here (and I admit I ignored most of the posts in here after a certain point). I had thought you had meant girls attempting to become a notch on a celebrities bed and them not hesitating.

Well... Ok then.

True, but that's why I reworded it so as to better express my own personal preference, as I felt that yours had been overly encompassing.

Now back to the elves you go!

 

Monaco is a bad example, lol. 'Citizens' of Monaco paid for their citizenship. They go on an approval list for a reason.

They're also still a part of the global economy. They trade with other countries, and aren't limited to the 40k in their own country, like Wizarding Britain is (supposedly?).

 

House-elves do not lose anything by being set free. They can still choose to serve. They simply are not property anymore, and can leave whenever they want. You are not disrespecting their wishes or something like it when you improve their position without costing them anything. Effectively, you do no more than giving them the option to leave their master. You do not take them from their master.

Arguing that we are ignoring their wishes by freeing them is like arguing that we are forcing our will on someone by offering him free, no strings attached, money.

 

Why would they be unable to trade internationally with other wizards? And I was merely pointing out that small societies can have very rich populations. Also, what about wizards who also invest in muggle affairs and businesses? Is it unreasonable that one of them could have made 100 million pounds and then retired and converted it into galleons?

 

Those woman who once campaigned against enfranchisement weren't unbrainwashed they saw what it was like for those who had it and changed their minds themselves. They didn't need men to reverse brainwash them. Woman needed enfranchisement precisely because they weren't happy with their current situation. The exact opposite of the house elves.

In fact with the house elves how do you as an outsider even remove the negative influence of Elvish culture. Say a law is passed where any elf that chooses to be free can be free and one which allows the elf to report abusive wizards. However none of the elves take advantage of this because they've collectively got stockholm syndrome. The children won't be any better because the elves that raise the will impart the same wisdoms that their parents and society gave them. They've got no reason to change they're more then happy as they are.

Do you reeducate the elves your self because you know better? Should all the elf children be taken into schools were wizards teach them how backwards the house elf way of doing things is and that they should act and behave like wizards now.

 

To which I say look at what happened to Winky when she was no longer allowed to serve the Crouch family, she turned into a depressed drunk.