First off, wizards are human.

Yes, wizards who would think like that are scummy-minded. We agree on that. But staying their wands from Muggle flesh is hardly noble: it's practical. Once you take the likes of Voldemort out of the equation, they honestly can't care enough.

Maybe enough for a laugh, a la Muggle-baiting.

 

I apologize if I'm coming into this House Elves debate a little too late, but I had to put some of my thoughts in.

I think a large part of the discussion claiming brainwashing seems to be completely based on a few notable house elves like Dobby or Winky, and completely disregards Hogwarts house elves.

What we know from canon is that there are a large number of Hogwarts house elves, and there are very few who could be considered as their masters (the staff), which seems to imply that there is much less interaction between house elves and their masters at Hogwarts.

Also, I am assuming here (correct me if I'm wrong), that Hogwarts house elves have been at Hogwarts for a very long time, and as such are likely to have bred themselves over generations without any major wizard influence.

How is it then that Hogwarts house elves are also considered brainwashed.

And if the Hogwarts house elves aren't brainwashed, and still aren't even willing to consider it freedom, I think it's safe to say that telling them to be free is an imposition that is against their free will.


Taure provided a very fitting example several posts back on the matter of consent of children.

I agree with everthing he said in that post, but the problem is that all the reasons that he listed there are not the actual cause of the lack of validity of a child's consent to sex. Rather, a child's lack of consent to sex is because of the fact that a child does lacks the mental development to make such a consent. All the reasons that Taure mentioned are a consequence of the lack of mental development, not the cause.

Irrespective of how a child is brought up, their consent is valid when their mental development is considered complete (that is they are of the age of consent.)

In fact, the lack of validity of a child's consent is in effect an imposition of the will of adults stating that their consent isn't valid, and rightfully so, for the reason stated above that their mental development isn't complete.

By that argument, Taure's argument either suggests none of the elves mentally developed enough to form their own consent, suggesting they never will be, or at least some are mentally developed and their vehement disagreement against their own freedom should be completely ignored by wizards.

In either case, the end result is the same, an imposition of the will of the wizards over their own.

So I don't think the subject of House Elves being brainwashed is as cut-and-dried as it is presented to be.

EDIT: I don't think Dobby's age in relation to other house elves is known. If it was known and was significantly lower than that of the average elf, it might have explained his radical views, that is the choice of a house elf whose mental development wasn't complete.

EDIT 2: Another problem is that freedom, from slavery or otherwise, cannot be imposed on anyone, human or otherwise, but has to be desired. Any freedom without it is equivalent to taking trading one master for another.

 

I believe I already addressed this point. Just because they're treated well doesn't mean they aren't brainwashed. How they're treated has more to do with who the current headmaster is than anything else. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I seriously doubt things were as good when say, Phineas was the headmaster.

 

I agree with your first point, but do you think there has been not even a single new generation of house elves in all the time Dumbledore has been headmaster? Yet we do not see any house elves even wanting to consider freedom.

Also, not wanting freedom is something completely different from frantically running away from it which is what the house elves do.

I'm not saying that House elves aren't enslaved, or that they should be enslaved. I'm pretty sure they are enslaved and they shouldn't be. But like I said before, freedom cannot be forced on anyone. Without the house elves actually at least considering wanting to be free, wizards forcing freedom on them is no different from another kind of slavery.

Keep in mind, that if you allow wizards to forcibly free them, you are effectively putting house elves under wizard laws. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the other sentient species aren't under wizard laws but govern themselves for the most part.

So what do you think freeing of house elves by the use of wizarding laws would achieve? Put them under wizard laws, a rather collective of masters instead of a single one.

Unless house elves fight for their freedom, the entire thing means nothing. If they do rise up, then it makes sense to help them. It also makes sense to give them some awareness so they could rise up, but the first step towards actual freedom should be their own.


EDIT: While house elves cannot break explicit orders, there is nothing that stops them from having their own opinion. For instance, Kreacher, even when he has to follow orders, makes it clear that he doesn't want to. Now that is definitely slavery, but it also demonstrates that house elves can form their own opinions inspite of orders. They can't follow their opinions, but they can have them. They can also voice them. That is where I believe the idea of house elves actually wanting servitude (not necessarily slavery) comes from.

No amount of brainwashing can be perfect. There are always exceptions, and exceptions usually give rise to more exceptions. That is how revolutions start. Yet, in HP, Dobby while being an exception ,isn't able to convince a single other elf. It's possible Dobby just doesn't have the leadership skills, but the fact that there isn't a single other elf shown in HP to have even the slightest inclination towards freedom is telling.

 

pls stahp.

 

Why necro a thread to start this up again? It was agreed that this was a passionate topic that is best left alone, especially in a thread that was originally about Taure's pet peeves.