Second time someone says Lupin is a genius. Where did you all get that idea? He's no genius. He's a normally gifted wizard. He probably was a hard-working student and he was doing well at school, but he never was as gifted as James Potter or Sirius Black; otherwise McGonagall would have mentioned him too when she told Rosmerta about Sirius and James being incredibly gifted, in PoA.

I don't like Lupin that much; I don't mind the fact he stayed away from Harry during his childhood--do you really think the Ministry would've let a werewolf anywhere near the Boy-Who-Lived? But I still think he keeps wallowing in guilt and self-disgust. That's annoying.

 

Still, he is incredibly smart. He had to deal with prefect, lycanthropy, praknster friends, and he got perfect grades. He is incredibly good, but even if you take away genius, he still does more shit than Hermione ever did.

I know you like her Tinn Tam, but can you give an example of what she has done? At all?

 

Jeez, you have a good memory, I'd better be careful with what I'm saying in the future!

I understand why all of you hate/strongly dislike Hermione. She annoys me sometimes--she's so damn stubborn and self-assured. But she is smart... as smart as Lupin was in his Hogwarts days, in my opinion (Lupin did say she was "the smartest witch of her age" or something of the sort). True, she doesn't have to deal with being a werewolf, but still her life as a witch isn't that easy. She's best friend with a guy who keeps landing himself in deep trouble, and that's worse than being friends with two gifted pranksters. Yes, she is bossy, easily crossed and on the whole remarkably irritating, but at least she is loyal to Harry--most of the time--and she has the courage of her opinions. Even if those are stupid ones.

Heh, I liked her in the first place because I kinda understood what was going on in that bushy head of hers. She didn't know a thing about magic before receiving her Hogwarts letter, and she must've been proud of achieving the best grades in her year in spite of her origins. She's an interesting and realistic female character, and you have to admit interesting female characters are scarce in the HP books.

Back to Hermione... what did she do? Er... she... set Snape's robes on fire, helped Harry to get the Stone, made Polyjuice Potion at the age of twelve-thirteen, found out about the Basilisk from a few extremely vague hints, helped Harry to master the Accio spell, helped Harry to fight the Death Eaters in the DoM--though her actions weren't particularly spectacular down there, she was still way more useful than Neville, Ginny, Luna and Ron put together--, and probably a few other things I'm too lazy to try to remember right now. It's 00:45, after all.

She is smart. She can be an insufferable foul-tempered bitch, but she is smart. And it's not as if Harry let her bossing him around all the time, either. He has more backbone than that, even in canon. When he does--grudgingly--agree with her, he most of the time finds her advice useful. She was the only one to suggest he should check out on Sirius at Grimmauld Place before rushing head first to the Ministry, after all; but when she was assured that Sirius wasn't there, thanks to that little shit of a house-elf, she didn't hesitate to follow Harry.

To sum it up...

So I kind of like her... as a secondary character. A Hermione-centric story doesn't appeal to me. At all. And she's often badly written in fanfiction, which might have contributed towards the general hatred.

I was NOT planning to make this post that long.

 

Snape was helping Harry, if he hadn't happened to fall, Harry could have been hurt. The stone she did help in, but could have got them all killed if she moved a muscle. Harry's quick thinking and ability not to panic saved them as well. They would have been fucked if he didn't remind her she was a witch.

Polyjuice potion had potential to get them all expelled, was useless as it din't accomplish anything. Basilisk was dumb, she could have told Harry but decided to risk it and almost got herself killed.

Harry just needed to concentrate, he could have done it on his own. I think the whole fourth book should be contributed to "Mad Eye". Harry, Hermione and Ron get no points.

DoM, she sucked. Panicked, took down no Death Eaters. My memory is really useful here, I remember every scene. No Death Eaters taken care of, stopped Harry from taking down another, that Death Eater came back and almost killed her (Dolohov). Neville took down a few, Luna was barely hurt at all, and blew ones face up. Ginny and Ron we have no real information on.

A lot of the things she was able to do, would have been disastrous if Harry hadn't kept his cool. She freaked with the centaurs, almost got them killed, and Harry almost got them out. Grawp eventually saved them, but Harry almost talked his way out.

Agree about Hermione-Centric stories, they suck.

She is realistic, but her character is inconsistent at times. I like your Hermione better, however in your stories. She is more constant and tries to help, and still has Canon bossiness, but toned down and done as a somewhat loving gesture.

True, she is smart, but I think it's just she can absorb information well, but has trouble applying it in high-stress situations

I'll give you the Sirius thing, but about the advice, Harry doesn't always trust her. Especially in OotP, a pivotal book. He never tells her about the hand, he does tell Ron, not about the dreams too much, he is afraid of what she says.

 

Your post could be summed up as following: Hermione sometimes is smart, she sometimes makes good decisions, but without Harry they would be pretty much screwed up.

I entirely agree on that.

About Snape and Polyjuice: I was not saying her gesture was useful, but it was still remarkable. It showed ingenuity and quite outstanding skill (for making Polyjuice; the book was in the Restricted Section after all!), and an ability to put her sacred rules aside in order to help her friends. Basilisk: she needed to check it out at the library, that's the way she is... Harry was just about to go to a Quidditch match and there wasn't much time anyway.

GoF: Harry needed to concentrate; but the fact remains that he needed Hermione for that. She stayed at his side the whole time while Ron was sulking, and it probably helped.

OotP: though she succeeded in taking them out of Umbridge's office, she did screw up with the centaurs--though anybody who wasn't used to centaurs would've screwed up in my opinion. As for her actions in the DoM, I won't discuss, as I wouldn't compete with that memory of yours (that's a bit scary, btw).

Why, thanks a lot! My Hermione is probably more mature.

Sometimes. Not always. She kept her head cool when stumbling across Snape's riddle in PS; she also had the presence of mind to mark the doors in the DoM.

Yes, I've noticed. However... I obviously don't know much about masculine psychology, but I, for one, would be more inclined to confide in a friend whose gender is the same as mine than in someone of the opposite sex. Harry trusts her more in the first 4 books, but he's younger then. Anyway, I more or less said the same thing as you just did in my previous post, when I said it wasn't as if Harry let her bossing him around.

 

Hmm, well I guess we pretty much have to agree here, don't we? Ah, yes the doors, that was a nifty trick she did. Though, it wasn't that stressful, still good though.

GoF: That is true.

OotP: The centaurs thing is true too, but didn't they have a few run-ins in the previous books?

Snape and Polyjuice: True, but checking didn't hurt her, it was that she wanted to see if it was a Basilisk. What if she was wrong, she could have been killed.

She had no true way of knowing, and also she had no idea if the reason they were petrified was because of water, and ghosts. She could have died just because she wanted to experiment. I'll still gve it to you though.

Eh, I would rather confide in a close friend of any gender. I can trust them more. Though if I had to choose, a female might be more sympathetic to whatever dangerous plight I'm facing.

 

Yes, Hermione is SMART, but not brilliant, the smartest witch since Rowena, magical prodigy etc... And she HAD managed to achieve a few things, like Polyjuice in 2nd year (although she was only following the instructions, not modifying anything like Snape did) and DA coins and cursed list in 5th... but that's all still far away from even Marauders' accomplishments (the map & animagus), not to mention Snape the potion/dark arts wiz and Riddle the super genius.

 

Thats just application of knowledge. I hate the DA coin being used as a "Look how smart she is" Yeah it was a spell two years in advance of her but so what she read a fucking book and practised. She used it on a coin... no shit thats what the damn spell is designed for, it's to be placed on a object to transfer information (Or something similar to that) it only makes sense to place it on something everyone carrys around like money. It probably would havbeen smarter to place the charm on sickles since people like Ron having a Galeon is just weird as he said.

The fire to Snapes robes and the devils vine... that is a basic spell as we have been shown many times andshe couldn't even think to use it with out help.

Polyjuice was just following instructions. While impressive she pulled it off it just proves she is good at doing step by step stuff not original work.

Her dealing with other creatures is shit from the house elfs to the centaurs.

"you know Harry I was kind of right about the whole Prince thing" (from HBP) She deserves to die slowly and painfully just for this. Her "Best friend" just lost his mentor right infront of his eyes and she says this... bitch.

The choice not to use Snapes notes on how to make better potions is just fucking retarded.

The move with the Basilisk and not telling Harry and Ron what her idea was is just stupid. She repeats this with her theory about Skeeta being a bug animagus.

Book 4, no one mentions this but she didn't ask Ron to the ball when she clearly wanted to go with him. Sure you can say it's the guys job but... isn't she into equality? Little hypocritical don't you think.

Yes I HATE Hermione. Above all other people in the series she is the worst. I don't mind Ron he's an average joe and the world needs people like him. He would not have flunked out he would have coasted through on Aceptable and gotten a nice middle level job in Magical sports and Games with in the ministry living a nice normal life. You forget Harry has had a hard life and with out Ron he could very well have snaped.

 

Well, while Hermione is all those things, there is one thing that annoys me. When you are younger, you are a little more scared of your elders, and don't break rules as much. Hermione does, but only when she has too, but as time goes on you see that the need arises a lot more, but instead of seeing a rise, you see a fall.

Not so much from PS - CoS, but from later on she breaks rule with a lot more resistance. PoA for example, GoF she realized she had too, OotP she was a little cuntish, then in HBP we see how anal she is. Her character keeps going down.

PS - I kind of liked her

CoS - Felt a little sorry for her

PoA - A little annoying, but felt bad

GoF - Sorry for her having to choose, but she is a little weird

OotP - Needs to be braver, a little annoying

HBP - Please, just die you bitch

 

Everybody ready for a really long post? I'm going reverse chronologically, so some things might seem out of context.

True prodigies do both. They may have a natural talent for something, but if they don't put the work into it they'll never reach their potential. From wiki:

A child prodigy is someone who is a master of one or more skills or arts at an early age. One generally accepted heuristic for identifying prodigies is the following: a prodigy is someone who, by the age of roughly 11, displays expert proficiency or a profound grasp of the fundamentals in a field usually only undertaken by adults.

Wouldn't that include Hermione, especially the bolded part? She does very advanced spells/potions 5 years ahead of her time yet people glance over it like it's nothing. Hermione's only weakness, strange as it is, is lack of knowledge. I'm sure if she knew of/had a reason to learn the Patronus charm she would've had a very good chance to perform it in 3rd year too. Magic is tricky, because it involves skill, knowledge AND power. Powerwise, Harry probably has her beat so it'd be a tough call, but even though her's might not be as powerful as his she could probably have created a Patronus in third year as well.

He didn't have a threat, but he had something to fight against. He wanted to wipe out all Muggles, which would be a good reason to get stronger and learn.

Fudge said in HBP (1996) they'd been trying to defeat Voldemort for 30 years, which would put him in the mid 1960s, right before the Marauders(Sirius/Snape/James/Remus/Peter were born 1958/59) would've been going to school.

Dumbledore was born in 1840, but we don't know enough about that era. Is it canon or fanon that says there's usually a dark wizard for every generation? When today's generation was growing up, and even into 6th year everybody thought that Voldemort was dead. There wasn't a necessity to get stronger as a people, since it wouldn't seem like your life depends on it.

As a first year (with no prior magical experience) Hermione:
Figured out Snape's riddle
Casts a bodybind curse on Neville
Is best in her year in Charms

Second:
Brews Polyjuice, an incredibly difficult potion to make
Discovers it's a basilisk

Third:
Doesn't destroy the universe with the time turner
Helps Hagrid with the Buckbeak case even though she's got way too many classes
Uses the time turner to save Sirius, and stops Harry from likely killing himself

Fourth:
Helps Harry perfect the summoning Charm
Discovers Rita's an animagus

Fifth:
Most helpful (of DA) in the DoM scene
Rita's blackmail helps Harry get his story into the public
Corporeal Patronus (Did Ron and Cho make corporeal patronuses? Can't remember)
DA sheet curse

Sixth(her doppleganger):
She's a complete bitch and pretty much useless

There's probably more, but those are the main points I can think of right now.

IIRC the only runin before OoTP was in the forest, and that was just Harry being saved by Firenze and then Bane getting all pissy.

Hermione probably would've run to Dumbledore or McGonnagall if she found out, but Harry's pride wouldn't allow him to tell her.

Spell casting isn't just saying the words and it happens (IE Wingardium Leviosa scenes). You have to have natural talent AND learned skill to use it.

Wasn't Hermione the one that told Ron just to relax? Hermione got through it OK, then Harry trusted her enough to relax and just slip through, but Ron was an idiot and kept squirming around so she had to do the spell.

Potion brewing isn't just following a recipe and doing it exactly the same way, or else there'd be a ton of Potions masters competing for Snape's job. Comparing Snape's skills 30 years after he's left school and has continued learning to Hermione's skills after a year and a half of school can't be done. Especially if we assume that his mother (a witch) imparted some knowledge on him during the summer and/or he was allowed to keep learning during the summers, which a muggle-born obviously couldn't do.

Her dealing with other creatures is shit from the house elfs to the centaurs.

Can't really argue with the hatred towards HBP!Hermione, considering how different her character was portrayed compared to the earlier books (especially PoA and GoF).

She's not one to make wild accusations, she wanted to make sure her theories were right before she blackmailed Skeeter or started a panic over a basilisk.

Ron was an ass to her and Harry most of that book and the previous book. IMO she was more angry about Ron being so possessive/insulting to her with the "oh, that's right Hermione's a girl" and "you can't date him even though I never asked you out!" bits.

Ron has no worthwhile talents or skills of any kind. If Ron hadn't befriended him he would've made tons of friends in Gryffindor/Hufflepuff/Ravenclaw without him. Ron's xenophobia against the other houses (didn't he put them down in the train scene?) probably cost Harry the chance to have real friends instead of only having 2.

People also have to remember. She's 11-15 years old when she's doing these advanced magical things and facing down genocidal maniacs. Cut her some slack.

 

I saw it more of a maturation. Earlier in her life she didn't understand the danger they were all in. As time went on and she understood how dangerous their situation was, she became more resistant to taking chances. Then again, when Kreacher said Sirius was in the DoM and they needed to get away from the IS she was willing to break the rules (and laws).

I generally disregard HBP, if only for the fact that so many characters (Harry, Hermione, Ginny, Tonks, etc) were OOC.

 

No, that's exactly why Hermione should NOT be included in that bunch.

She doesn't have a grasp on any fundamentals; she only learns textbooks by heart. If she had the grasp, then she'd be able to make the same kind of alterations that Harry had found in Half-Blood Prince's book. Like this, it's Snape who had a grasp on fundamentals of potion making (making him into a potions prodigy) and Hermione who's a little stuck-up teacher's pet, who only wanted to regrugriate recepies from her standard textbook.

See the difference? That's what I'm talking about; brilliant prodigy versus clever little bitch.

 

Damn this is turning into a Hermione bashing/defence thread. OK this is going to be out of order cause I'm doing it as I read it.

Yes as I said she studied and did an advanced spell which is all well and good does not make her a genius or a prodigy it only makes her a good student. The mauaders map is what can only be assumed to be a amazing bit of magic the combination of numerous charms and other bits of magic (We have no idea what went into it but we can only presume it is pretty good since there are not a whole bunch of this VERY useful map going around) She mastered a spell and applied it in its proper fashion OH MY GOD A PRODIGY!!! Now if she had invented a whole new type of spell with her fundamental grasp of magic theory and intuative knowledge... maybe I wouldn't think of her as a pathetic book worm.

It's not an accusation if she goes "Hey it might be a Basilisk I think I read they can kill with a glance and Slytherin was a parcelmouth, hey Ron your a pure blood who has been raised in the magical world your whole life, have you ever heard of this creature in your 12 years in the magical world? Perhaps from your brother who works with dangerous creatures?" Or something similar. She doesn't have to go "OMG it MUST be a basilisk!!!"

Umm... yeah it is. For the first 5 years it is anyway. Snape puts instructions up on the board and tells them to follow them with no extra help apart from their text books. It's not until HBP that we even begin to see application of theory (When Harry hands over the Bezoar for a cure). When students screw up Snape asks them what they did wrong, they look at the board and say "I added *insert magical item here* at the wrong time sir..." So yeah it is. I presume the post of potion master implies the knowledge of theory that even Hermione didnt have a good grasp of in that potion lesson. Any 7th year could probably teach the first 5 years of potions. Hell I could teach it all I'd do is copy the recipe from the book to the board and tell them to get on with it while calling them idiots.

Care to point out how? All I remember is Her being struck down by a death eater she used a STUPID and INEFFECTIVE curse on. She silenced him instead of blasting his ass. She also stopped Harry from stunning one cause it had a babies head WTF is that? Luna did more that her by blasting pluto in some DE's face and locking all those doors. Neville even lasted longer even thou he didn't do much. I do believe it was also Harrys idea to blast the shelves while the "Smartest which her age" didn't do shit.

 

I think it's more of the difference between wanting to excel in a subject (doing everything by the book) and wanting to torture and kill people who are mean to you (Sectumsempra). Hermione's driven to get the best grades possible and prove (through those grades) that she's just as capable as any Pureblood, which doesn't lend itself to experimenting as much.

A tracking spell and a spell to insult anybody who doesn't use the correct password. Is that harder than creating a magically binding contract (probably not found in any regular books), creating polyjuice when she's 11, etc.

Her biggest fear is failure (OoTP), which is why she double and quintuple checks everything. Ron is an idiot, so I wouldn't trust him with anything.

I'm assuming (since we haven't really seen it) that the advanced potions (polyjuice, felix, etc) are more than simple recipes. If they are simply recipes, what makes Snape any more talented than anybody else who follows the directions?

I haven't read OoTP, so I'm going off of HPL and Wiki. Correct me if I'm wrong:

Ron just slowed them down (Brains attacking him...perfect symbolism if I ever saw it)
Neville lasted awhile, but he also disarmed Harry with a miscast expelliaramus and almost got Harry killed
Ginny didn't really do anything but break her ankle

Luna didn't lock the doors, she Harry and Neville tried sealing them but she got knocked out. She did knock out one of the DEs earlier though

Hermione:
Stupefied the DE who first grabbed Harry
Marked the doors so they could get to the prophecies
Stupifies another DE making him go headfirst into the timeturner jar thing
Silences a DE who is about to yell for backup, then gets knocked out by the purple flame thing

I'm not saying she was doing Dumbledore type magic, but she was definitely the most helpful.

 

Oh, so Snape modified all those potions out of some sadistic pleasure, and not because he was genuinly intrigued by potion making?

What is Hermione intrigued with? Had she invented some new charm (Snape's curses)? Or a magical item (the Twins and their trinkets, James' and Sirius' communication mirrors)? Or took care for dangerous rare plants (Neville)? Or did anything at all creative outside of school work, for the pure pleasure of magical science (helping Harry on his various adventures doesn't count)?

No, like you said, her only interest is to get the best grades. She's good at everything, but doesn't excell in anything. In my school, we had several 'Hermiones' in each class (kids with A's in everything), but only a few prodigies in entire school (kids who go to math/physics competitions, work with their teachers privately on advanced theory etc...).

Hermione is a smart girl and great student. But she's nothing special. In any way.

 

For the rest of that stuff we will have to agre to disagre or we will end up with a hundred posts of us quoting each other to prove our points.

Marking the doors... yeah ok good idea but nothing mind blowing they would have found it sooner or latter... and if it DID take longer the OOtP would have caught up to them and Dumbledore would have to... So really Sirius dieing and the whole thing was her fault . I stand by the fact she bloody silenced the death eater about to attack her instead of blasting his ass. For that alone she deserved to be killed. She DID stop Harry from stunning the half baby DE cause he was a baby... WTF kind of messed up logic is that. She did stun the DE that grabbed Harry only after Harry got them out of the damn hall by blasting the shelves. What did she do... she stood their doing nothing.

Luna did lock several doors before being blasted while locking the very last door. She also did blow up pluto in a DE's face.

Neville survived a while but really didnt do much but then I never expected him to.

I say Harry and Luna were the best in the whole "Fiasco" Neville did bugger all but laster the length so I give him credit for that.

Weasleys... none event. Didn't do anything good or bad.

Hermione was helpful (I never said she was useless) but her stupid use of flawed logic and inability to think on her feet makes her average at best a liabilty at worst.

Ron and Ginny did nothing to our knowledge apart from help split up the DE's.

 

Hindsight 20/20 and all that. She (because of her belief in Harry) thought Sirius was being tortured so she wanted to get there asap

Didn't the baby DE help them later on, by running into other DEs and giving them a way to get out?

Well obviously Harry was the best, he's the "hero" and all. But I still think Hermione was a strong #2

Were Sectumsempra new curses he invented or just curses he found in a dark arts book? Same thing with the potions, I don't remember what he changed, since I only read HBP once. Snape wasn't doing it for the pleasure of it, he was probably doing it to get revenge on his tormentors. If you discount Hermione's actions (Polyjuice, etc) because she was doing it to help Harry how can you not discount Snape's spells (researched or invented) because he was most likely doing it to be prepared if MWPP ever attacked him again?

The mirrors and the twins' items don't seem like new spells either. Neville exploded a giant zit-plant in Harry's face, what dangerous plants did he handle?

 

Yes Snape invented the curses. It shows him working them out in the book and that was only one of his cirses who knows what else he invented. Also he says "You dare use the spell I invented against me!" When Harry fires the cutter at him.

He improved the potions and the way to make them cause he is a genius and realised a better way to do it. Hermione even when presented with a far better and obviously superior way still choose the "official" way... fucking stupid. I doubt he has any intrest in the euphoria potion it's self but being the potions genius he is he realised a way to better it with his FUNDAMENTAL grasp of potions knowledge something Hermione has never shown.

No I don't think the mirrors were new in fact I thought they were brought but they still made and did numerous other amazing NEW things.

As I have said the DA coins and parchment were just well thought out ways to use current spells no matter how advanced they were.

Polyjuice potion while an advanced potion was only restricted apparently so not everyone could go around looking like other people. She carefully followed instructions thats all. Impressive in a 12 year old but still nothing to make her a prodigy only a book worm and brown noser.

Meh I said she was as useful as the others but I still put Luna second. She was the one who saved the second group (Her Ron and Ginny) since Hermione and Harry and Neville were in the other group.

 

And I here I was remembering that she said she had to check something! I'm pretty sure she said she had to check something. And plus, what are the chances of Ron knowing? He may have been raised in Wizarding home, but he still acts like a dunderhead. For example, the veela still had an effect on him.

And plus, Charlie is interested in dragons. Hagrid just mentions that Charlie was interested in CoMC.

Would you like to tell me these amazing new things the Marauders made? I was under the impression they bought their stuff like the twins. It's the twins who made the stuff.

To be hones, I would have ranked Hermione 4th at the DoM fiasco. Thats because, IMO Neville and Luna did more than Hermione. Well, Neville tried to take on numerous DEs with a broken nose and Luna lasted till the final act, so to speak.

Now, as to try and steer it back on topic I hate-

Ron: Mainly because of all that was said before, and that he's to hot-tempered.

Ginny: In the DoM, whilst she had a twisted ankle she didn't try to carry on fighting. Especially when her supposedly ex-crush was in a life and death situation, and even more so when said ex-crush had saved from dying whilst having Basilisk venom coursing through his veins!

 

Marauders made everything.

1.True

2. True

3.True. but he wasn't done. Harry was going to finish him off and she said no. It's a baby.

4. She did silence him. Then Harry stopped the next one, she tried to stop and talk to Harry and say good job, and she was hit with the flame. FROM THE GUY THAT SILENCED HER.

Neville broke his nose and his speech got fucked. Otherwise, 4 DE's would have been down.

Snape modified every potion, it was made faster, and a lot stronger.

Snape is better because he modifies everything. Polyjuice was done step by step, in a place with no interruptions. He did everything in class where it could have been construed as cheating. Also, I discount the whole thing. No information, and she turned into a cat. So much for double checking there.

She does nothing advanced at all. Ever. Polyjuice, step by step directions. Not on the go, with limited time and cutting corners. By the book work. And she still fucked up.

The Protean charm, big fucking deal. It is NEWT level, but so what. It simply puts down information, nothing too ingenious. The Marauders made a map that shows everyone in the school, passwords, and would trade insults to unwanted people.

The contract and insult. It's the same thing as a magical contract. And remember. She had the Room of Requirement, she had all the help she ever needed.

The thing is, a prodigy can do things in high stress situations, because they simply know it.

In high stress situations, Hermione forgets she's a witch, stops to talk and almost dies, checks to see if it's a Basilisk and almost dies, tries to stop Harry from listening to Sirius and Remus because, here it goes, he's a werewolf. She is a bigot towards them.

In HBP she can't do a simple thing like guard Hogwarts from coming through, while she has luck on her side. And in GoF, if she was a prodigy, the bitch would have know about Gillyweed.