Spoiler

More absent than emotionally abusive to be honest. That's nowhere near as bad as the shit that goes down at the end though.

 

Spoiler

He is an emotionally selfish monster, who is constantly being validated by the world around him because of his man pain, or something. It's absolute bullshit and ruins the story.

 

Just finished watching all of the 2011 hxh remake, the chimera ant arc has to be some of the most powerful television I have ever seen. Just incredible.

 

That's what we've all been saying. More people need to watch that shit.

 

I've heard good things about bakemonogatari, gonna check it out I think.

 

CLANNAD/CLANNAD AFTERSTORY REVIEW. SPOILERS AHOY. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.




...



... no seriously, spoilers.



...



Alright. I watched it all. Watched/read a bunch of reviews about it, too. I agree on a lot of things, but I also disagree on a lot of things. I'll try to separate the pros from the cons of each season before giving a final verdict.

CLANNAD

Pros:

-First of all, the animation is great. Right up there in terms of quality. Some might take good animation for granted, but it's really not a sure thing in drama anime, so for that I'm grateful.

-Some very good characters*. People like Akio, Sanae, Sunohara, Yoshino and Tomoyo were very well developed, and were some of the best examples of their roles in anime than I have seen to date. They are my favorite characters (after my No1 character) and imo they carried the show.

-*Tomoya himself. I very rarely like a main character as much as I did Tomoya. He feels like someone I can relate to easily because he feels like a real person, like an actual character. Yes, he has some qualities that one usually only sees in anime, but for the most part he feels very real, and has significant, important development as time goes on while retaining his realism. He plays pranks to his friends, he doesn't care about his future initially, his heart is in the right place, and he grows as he experiences things.
Because of how well made the main character was, I could forgive the show's (many) sins and keep watching, because Clannad(and even more so afterstory) are primarily Tomoya's journey.

-Very good humor. When the show wanted to be funny, it succeeded. Sunohara, Tomoya and Nagisa's parents are a big factor in this.

-Good balance between humor and drama. It didn't lack in either, and could time them correctly.

-The tension between Tomoya and his dad. It is nothing quite as obvious as violence, or any outright signs of abuse, yet it is made clear that Tomoya and his dad don't get along, and that Tomoya thinks very strongly of him. The relationship between them isn't fully explored in the first season and that's great, because it leaves the reader to piece together their own explanation with what little, subtle hints we were given.


Cons:

-The arc pattern is probably the worst thing about CLANNAD. The 'girl per arc' pattern that held true for most of the season was pretty crippling to the story as a whole. Yes, many of these characters were interesting (looking at you, Kotomi) but with the way the arcs were made these characters were given their five minutes in the spotlight and then never bothered with again.
Most of the supporting cast never says anything worthwhile after their time in the spotlight is over. And all the development and/or backstory that was given to these characters feels wasted, because they're never relevant ever again. There is no balance between character screentime.
In fact...

-Character screentime. All of the supporting cast with the exception of Akio, Sanae and Sunohara(who will nevertheless get his in Afterstory) either only have a pair of episodes of development before returning to the sidelines or never leave the sidelines at all.
Take for example Kyou and Ryou. I'll go on a limb here and assume that the shy one was Ryou. We never learn anything about her besides 'she's class leader' and 'she likes Tomoya'. She never does or says anything, and she never displays any show of personality whatsoever to her name. Kyou, at least, has some personality to her name, but again we never get to know her or anything about her, so even that feels shallow.
Another example of terrible character screentime balance is Nagisha. During a pair of consecutive arcs about some girl or other Nagisa is all but gone from the show, when before and (especially) after she returns to being the secondary protagonist. That sudden switch in focus is jarring as fuck.

-Nagisa herself. I didn't hate Nagisa. Yes, she is all the cliches of that type of person put together, but I didn't hate her. I just wish she wasn't the protagonist along with Tomoya.
Afterstory kind of makes up for it, but in CLANNAD Nagisa has all the personality of a wooden board, and what personality she does display is not something I particularly admire or enjoy watching.

Literally the only girl that I would've preferred Nagisa over is Ryou. And even that is arguable. That extra episode of Tomoya having a relationship with Tomoyo was absofuckinglutely amazing. Easily the highlight of the entire show, and that is because Tomoyo is an interesting, well-developed character that differs from Tomoya without being any less of a person than he is. Tomoya/Tomoyo OTP!! Kyou would have been a better love interest than Nagisa was. Hell, even Kotomi would have been a better love interest than Nagisa was.
I didn't hate Nagisa. I just really, really hoped that her solo scenes(the ones without Tomoya) would end quickly.

-The other world scenes. I think putting this in the Cons is a little excessive. Still, there was no obvious connection between the main storyline, what little hints we were given were NOT very promising, and they took episode time and developer time/money that could have been put in things like 'characterization' and 'pacing'.

-The supernatural elements. I teared up like a little girl when Fuko was being forgotten. I admit it. I did and would probably tear up again if I rewatched it.
That said, what the fuck? Fuko's arc made no fucking sense, in hindsight. Adding supernatural elements on a modern setting is not impossible or even rare, but here they didn't even make an attempt to have it make sense. Not just Fuko, either. Whenever anything supernatural was hinted at I cringed, because they were so obvious and terrible that they completely detracted from the whole experience. Afterstory is much more guilty of this.


Verdict: Despite it's many and numerous faults, CLANNAD has too strong a foundation to call a 'bad' show. Tomoya is a great, relatable and realistic protagonist who develops as time passes, and a lot of the supporting cast are very strong, too. The animation and good soundtrack add to the whole experience and the balance between humor and drama is pretty spot-on, though I did roll my eyes at several obvious tear-jerkers.
By the end, I did not regret watching CLANNAD. Yes, it had many faults, yes it could have been much, much better, but it was good.
I would say a 7/10 would suffice.


Now, on to CLANNAD: Afterstory

Pros:

-The animation is still great. Yeah.

-Extra focus on characterization. For some people. For the rest, it kind of sucks, but for Akio, Sanae, Yoshino, Tomoya and Nagisa it's great.

-More Tomoya! Afterstory builds up on Tomoya's development from the first season and kicks it into overdrive. We see him struggle to grow up, enter society, become a man, care for his family, etc etc. His character progression is solid and moves at a good pace. By the end he looks and acts like an adult, albeit a unique one forged by his circumstances. He and his journey are the main reason the story holds up as well it does.

-Nagisa is a person! Not really, but kinda. Over the sacrifices of literally ALL of the supporting cast excluding her parents, Nagisa is given some actual characterization and even, dare I say it, growth. Even her death, perhaps meant to be nothing more than a tearjerker, was an important milestone in Tomoya's development. It's a shame and yet not that she died. On one hand, she was just beginning to feel like a real person. On the other, the show should not have waited until episode 16 of the second season to give their female lead a personality.

-Ignore stuff, it helps. I have found that I cannot remember much before episode 9 or so. That's fine, because what I do remember of them isn't amazing. They weren't bad (except the whole cat/boy thing, WTF) but they didn't really add much as the show was picking up speed.

Similarly, I found that my view of the show rose by several orders of magnitude if I ignored the last couple episodes. I will talk about those in the cons section, but the point is that if the show ended on episode 21-22, it would be fucking amazing.

-Tomoya(again). Continuing from the previous point, I like to think that the show ended on episode 21-22 because it is by that point that Tomoya has gone full circle, he has grown beyond a teenager, beyond a boy struggling to be a man, has grown past most of his grief, and is ready to live his life for his daughter despite his major fuck-up. That right there, was a perfect moment to end it. The show's focus on the importance of family would have been perfectly encapsulated.

But of course, more tearjerkers were needed so Ushio dies in what has to be the most retarded and forced way in history but waaaaait it doesn't matter because magical power of happiness double time travel happens. Yay for finales.

So yeah, ignoring the last episode actually makes me think that the show ended on a great way that surprised me a lot, and managed to pass on a real world message through an entertaining medium and likable characters.

-Akio is awesome. Well, he is.

Cons:

Disappearance of the supporting cast. I get what Afterstory was going for. The focus on Nagisa and Tomoya's family was actually pretty good, all things considered, but all other characters that were in every episode of CLANNAD literally dissapeared and are seen maybe twice (if at all) throughout all of Afterstory. Sunohara's absence was especially jarring, considering he was (supposed to be) Okazaki's best friend.

-The first 8-9 episodes. As I said earlier, they weren't bad, they felt really separate from the rest of the show, and not in a good way. Oh, that reminds me:

-The cat-boy bestiality case. Seriously. Misae is hot and if I were a cat turned into a boy I'd wanna bang her too but what the actual fuck.

Which leads me to:
-The supernatural elements/other world storyline. Fuck this. Fuck this sideways with a rusty spoon. Whoever decided it was a good idea to add the supernatural stuff and then give exactly fuckall explanation for them, just so he could undo two season's worth of character development should go eat a pile of dog shit and then apologize to every single CLANNAD fan in existence, personally.
The supernatural elements were stupid as fuck, the other world storyline was boring and it was time/money that could have been invested better, and the final episode fucking ruins fucking everything by undoing anything of note that ever happened, BUT ONLY THE SAD STUFF, so that the perfect happy ending can be achieved in a show that was poised to show that even though life and reality are both bitches, happiness can be achieved if you try your best for the people closest to you.

All the better, then, that the last episode doesn't exist for me. Boy, I'd be mad as balls if it did.

-The copout regarding Tomoya's dad. Now, I'll admit that I kinda sorta liked the resolution of Tomoya and his dad seeing eye to eye and his dad returning home, but I didn't like how it came to be.
It was one convenient thing after another, in a series of forced coincidences that only make me roll my eyes.

Moreover, it felt like a total waste of the subtle tension that the first season had created. It felt like the first season wove a silk thread, and then the second season came and beat it to death with a hammer, yelling all the while "IT'S FINE BECAUSE HE DID IT ALL FOR YOU AND YOU'RE THE SAME SO YOU SHOULD GET IT, RIGHT? RIGHT?!? I CAN'T HEAR OVER HOW NOTHING IN THE PAST MATTERS, SPEAK UP."

It's all incredibly convenient and in such a way as to dissolve the rift in the least confrontational way possible. Which can work, I suppose, but it's an incredible waste.

Having said that, I will have to disagree with people on this thread (and the show itself) who think that Tomoya and his dad are the same. True, both are understandable in their actions considering the loves of their lives died, and I don't think you people are giving enough credit to the pits of despair such a sudden loss can lead some people to.

Still, Tomoya gave Ushio to Akio and Sanae for five years. While a terrible thing to do as a father, it was actually the better choice. Akio and Sanae are both model, loving parents who did a great job raising Ushio for her first 5 years, much better than a grief stricken Tomoya would have done. Tomoya's father tried to do it, he tried his best to go at it alone, and he failed.

Btw, while I can buy the reconciliation once Tomoya knows what his father went through, I can't quite buy him thinking that Okazaki senior was a great father. We're seeing flashes of him being a great father through Tomoya's memories from when he was little but CLANNAD and Afterstory have no such examples, and in fact it is heavily implied that this has been the case for years.

So no, I'm not quite sold there. It was a very dissapointing copout.

-I think there were more, but I can't remember them right now.

Verdict:

My rating depends on what I choose to do with the final episode.
If I ignore it, it is a successful tale of a boy growing into a man that showcases the importance of family and learning to look at the positives in one's life. Yes it could have been better and it did several things wrong, but in the end Tomoya's journey is too well-crafted to be dragged down, and the supporting cast of Afterstory are all solid. Well worth an 8/10 rating.

If I don't ignore the final episode, it is all of the above, only smashed into pieces and then pissed upon for the sake of a classic happy ending whose avoidance was exactly the reason the show was any good through the use of unexplained, retarded plot devices.
In which case, not even Tomoya's journey could save the rating since it is basically invalidated (IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT YOU LEARN IN LIFE, KIDS. ALL SAD THINGS GO AWAY THROUGH HAPPINESS LIGHT MAGIC TIME TRAVEL). In which case, a 5/10 would be generous.



tl;dr: CLANNAD/CLANNAD Afterstory are well worth a watch, though far, far from perfect.

 

One of the biggest complaints I have about Key anime is the romance. They almost end up going with the girl I least want to see the MC with.

In Clannad, I wanted either him to either end up with Tomoya, Kotomi, or Kyou (I think that was the better twin's name). That first Another World OVA with Tomoyo was just fantastic. There should have been another episode sent in that world.

Nagisa was a combination of boring and annoying. The best thing that came out of that character were the time spent on her parents and Ushio.

Kanon did pretty much the same. There one girl I really liked, but of course it wasn't the type of girl that the MC usually ends up with in anime based on visual novels.

Little Busters is a bit different to me in that I actually liked the character the MC ended up with. Not more than some of the other girls though. So I didn't really mind it, but would have preferred a different girl.

As always happens in anime based on visual novels, after their respective arcs are over the other girls kind of disappear. But in Little Busters the romance wasn't a major part, so its not that big of a problem.

Little Busters was more consistent than Clannad. It never reached the highs that Clannad did, but it never fell to the lows that Clannad did either.

 

Right, so this is a bit of a strange request for recommendations.

Basically, I find most anime extremely hard to watch, but every now and then I find a series that is absolutely amazing. I'm not sure how to describe what I like, so I'll list all of the Anime I've really enjoyed so far.

Fate/Zero
Fate/Stay Night
Madoka Magica
Code Geass
Death Note

I'm not really set on any particular genre, I like anything if it's done well. However, and this is the biggest problem I have with Anime, basically I hate shows that have a lot of embarrassment. I couldn't bring myself to enjoy Toradora! for this reason, and I watched almost all of it.

What I really enjoy about all of the Anime I listed above, is how much they all make you think. I haven't watched Death Note in 5 years, but I remember that being a great battle of wits. (The first 23 episodes anyway)

The rest were all similar, and had quite interesting settings. None of the characters were ever really over emphasised, all the decisions the characters made made sense. I have a low threshold for suspension of belief you could say.

Basically, I'm wondering if I've missed any other anime that seem to fit this criteria. I know i haven't done the best job of describing what I'm after, but hopefully you guys get what I mean, and have some recommendations.

 

Seems like you want darker, more 'mature' (though I dislike the term) anime.
So I guess I'd advise you to check out more of Urobuchi's work, i.e. Suisei no Gargantia, Psycho Pass. Wouldn't recommend checking out Aldnoah.Zero, though.
Maybe Kamen Rider Gaim, if Live Action/Tokusatsu is your thing.

Some other darker anime: Ghost in the Shell, Ergo Proxy, Monster, Mirai Nikki.
All classics, but they have that darker setting I think you're looking for.

 

Have you seen Shiki? Thats quite an interesting series.

Just watched the first 8 episodes of Baccano! and I'm not really feeling it, is this the type of show where it comes together with the final episode, or can I safely assume I'm probably not going to enjoy it all that much ever if I'm not into it yet?

 

I think Psycho Pass would be in your wheelhouse. It's essentially the concept behind Minority Report, but replace precogs with active brain scans. It's writer, Gen Urobuchi, also wrote Madoka, and was the writer for the Fate/Zero light novel. He's fairly well regarded, but I wouldn't recommend any other anime property that has his name attached to it; he tends to come up with the concept, and write maybe an episode or two, and then leave it to other writers who drop the ball (see Gargantia, which has an amazing first episode but peters out fast).

In a similar vein is Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, which is about a special police unit that investigates cyborg and cybernetic crimes. It's easily one of the best anime I've seen.

Cowboy Bebop isn't a "thinking" show, but it is a wild ride through our solar system with a group of eccentric bounty hunters. It has a great cast of characters and all but one episode is entertaining as all hell. It is my favorite show. Nothing else beats it.

Neon Genesis Evangelion gets a lot of flak from folks, but is still one of the best shows that has ever been made. It's main storyline is about the literal end of the world, but it also delves into the individual trauma of many of the named characters. It is a show that takes an unabashed look at depression, its causes, how it might effect someone, and, ultimately, overcome it. If nothing else, this show has been very influential since it came out in the mid-90's, and while you may not enjoy it, you should watch it because of the impact it has had on the medium.

Revolutionary Girl Utena is one of the most dense shows I've seen in terms of metaphor, symbolism, and allegory. There is a lot going on in it's 30 some episodes, and every episode matters, even the "dumb" ones. I can't recommend this enough if you really enjoy diving into something and trying to figure out what it is trying to actually say. Another good show by its creator, Kunihiko Ikuhara, is Mawaru Penguindrum, which is also exceptionally dense.

Monster is a psychological thriller without peer in anime. It features a doctor with everything going for him until he decides to save the life of a young boy over an important politician. The politician's death derails the doctor's life completely -- he loses his fiance, the respect of his peers, and the support of his boss -- but that doesn't change the doctor's mind that he made the right call. But his ideals come under attack when the doctor learns that the young boy he saved has left a trail of blood behind him.

 

@Innomine . You should definitely watch Monster then. Its pretty amazing and doesn't really feel like an anime at all.

 

Republic: Really good review of Clannad. The whole 'out of place supernatural' thing is pretty characteristic of Key VNs in general. A lot of people would argue it gives it that surreal, magical feel that is patently Key. I do agree with your assessment that it's always felt out of place and forced.

Innomine: Yeah, sounds like you're more interested in plot-focused anime with interesting characters and minimal slapstick comedy.

Seconding some of the recommendations from Banta:

Neon Genesis Evangelion (+ End of Evangelion OVA + Rebuild Movies) - Is absolutely fantastic. Really strong thematical and character exploration focus, but still has enough of an action orientated plot to keep from feeling too art-housey or dry. It's got energy and excitement, it's got deep character introspection and also your healthy dose of "that's fucked up". A real must see for any anime fan - whether they liked it or not.

Psycho Pass is really enjoyable, but still has interesting themes, dark atmosphere and interesting characters (well, mainly the main antagonist). It's probably not at the same level as some of the other anime mentioned here, but I can guarantee you'd enjoy it.

Monster is fantastic too. As Banta said, it's a completely different sort of anime thriller, feeling more like you're reading some Western detective novel instead of an anime. Very different style, and well, set in post-Communist Eastern Europe. It can feel a little bit dated at times - both the animation, but also the characters. I was surprised when I went to rewatch it recently that the antagonists in the first few episodes (ie, the director of the hospital, Tenma's girlfriend, etc) are all way over the top in their apathy and douchebaggery. But apart from that, it's very different and very interesting.

Cowboy Bebop can be a hit and a miss. To be honest, it's quite different to the examples Innomine put forth. It's a character centric anime, with the themes being a bit more subtle. It's episodic in nature, with each arc lasting 1-2 episodes and kind of lacks the heavy plot focus that the other anime Innomine listed have. Main selling point is the atmosphere and characters I think. I actually didn't like it first time I saw it, and only learned to appreciate it later.

And some others:

Berserk - Had some discussion over the last page, but another dark, plot focused, character driven anime.

Shin Sekai Yori - Very, very thematically focused and very arthousey. It's an anime that really makes you think a lot and is not exactly one you watch for relaxation or pure enjoyment. If anything, every episodes makes you feel weird and fucks you up mentally. Bit different from those you mentioned above, which are a lot "fun" in comparison, but might be worth checking out.

Hunter X Hunter (2011) - See full review I did a few weeks ago on the previous page. It's pretty shounen style initially, so not sure if you'll find that off putting, but once you get it into it, I think you'll enjoy it.

Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood - Like HxH a quasi-shounen, but a solid, plot focused anime with awesome characters. Probably a bit closer to Geass out of all the ones you listed.

Anyway, there's a few for you to try. Tell us how you find them, and we can probably recommend more based on that.

 

I would second/third recommendations of Monster, Psycho Pass, FMA Brotherhood and Hunter X Hunter 2011. Others to consider:

- Ergo Proxy
- Death Parade

There's also Tiger and Bunny, and Steins;Gate - but if you really hate 'embarrassment' they might not be for you.

Actually, I'd be interested in getting a view of the favourite anime of the people here. They don't necessarily have to be ranked, but I think most of us would have a group of anime which immediately come to mind when we're thinking of making recommendations.

 

So Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso finished this week and I've decided to binge it all in one go and it's probably the best thing of 2015, I love it. I'll do a full rec once I end it, but has anyone checked this out?

 

All of you guys are right. The rekt feels are real. I admit I teared up a bit - no other anime has done this before, even the ones like Madoka and Fate Zero which I think are objectively better.

Have you considered branching out into visual novels? I think it's good to explore a new medium, because in a familiar medium (e.g. anime) you can easily exhaust all the (1) good stories that (2) match your preferences.

For what it's worth, the animes you listed are literally the ones I like above all others (Madoka is my highest rated at 9.9; FSN, Fate Zero, Death Note are marginally behind at 9.8). Assuming our preferences coincide (we like battle of wits, and compelling characters that know what they want and are willing to do what it takes to pursue it) - I would recommend G-Senjou no Maou (can be downloaded here or here).

The VNDB summary is thus:

"You play the role of Asai Kyousuke, the son of a legendary gangster infamous in the underworld. You spend your time listening to Bach, playing God at school and covertly working for your stepfather, a ruthless financial heavyweight. This idyllic existence is broken when two individuals appear in the city – a beautiful girl from your past named Usami Haru with hair you could get lost in for days, and a powerful international gangster known only as Maou. Almost without delay, the two begin a deadly cat-and-mouse game, bringing you and your friends into the crossfire. Plotting, political intrigue and layer upon layer of interlocking traps are the weapons in this epic battle of wits."

It's the only VN/anime/manga I've given a 10 to - I've never read anything better, and I don't expect to. It's compelling and brilliant and powerful.

 

I have. It's a really good show full of feels, but it's not as consistent as I wish it was, and the comedy bits were horribly done.

 

Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso/Your Lie In April was a really good anime when it wanted to be. But there are some things I didn't like.

1. Sometimes the music performances went on a bit too long for my tastes.

2. Some characters didn't get enough screentime for me to really get emotionally attached to them.

Watari, for example, barely had an character development. The only time I really felt for him was in an early episode when he lost his soccer game, but put on a brave face for his friends, and only cried about it when he was alone in the bathroom. I had high hopes for the character after that, but they never really focused on him.

To a much lesser extent, I felt the same thing happened with Kaori. It felt like every time I was getting into her scenes concerning her health/mental state they would cut to a different scene and/or a flashback.

3. I'd have liked some more character interactions between characters that didn't interact much. Kaori/Watari, Kaori/Tsubaki, Tsubaki/Watari,

4. Tsubaki. She is my biggest problem with the show. She got way too much screen time. I think some of her screentime should have went to underdeveloped characters like Watari. Did we really need all of those scenes her moping and obsessing over Kōsei, of her and her boyfriend, and all of those flashbacks? Not to mention, she just became so unlikable throughout the series. I'm hoping I was just watching a bad sub, because the line she said to Kōsei along the lines of

Spoiler

"Kaori likes Watari. So you have no choice but to love me."

was a huge WTF moment. There is no reason this character should have eaten up so much screentime.

5. I would have liked to have gotten more of Takeshi Aiza and Emi Igawa. I loved those characters and would have loved to see more of them. Their interactions with Kōsei and with each other were great.

6. The comedy was pretty bad.

7. Having 26 episodes instead of 22 probably would have helped.


It was still one of the best anime I've watched in a while, but I wouldn't call it a masterpiece.

 

I wasn't a big fan of Your Lie In April to be honest. Inspirational tragedies are so hard to get right, and I thought this one was too heavy handed with the psychological aspects of grief.

Anohana is a prime example of this genre done perfectly (sans the music).

 

On the subject of anime that are ending, Shirobako is the shit. I honestly didn't expect to like it as much as I do because of its premise (five cute girls working in the anime industry). I thought that this was going to be another bad K-on rip-off, but with anime instead of music. Boy was I wrong.

Shirobako is nominally about the five girls and their respective trials and tribulations within the anime industry, but the show also has a very rich cast of secondary and tertiary characters, each of them with their own depth or, at the very least, at least one really good joke. It also helps that many of these characters are based on real people working in the anime industry, so there's that little bit extra going for them.

The animation is very fluid, especially the action scenes (yes, action scenes in the anime about anime production) as well as so many others. If you are a fan of quality animation, you should watch Shirobako for this alone.

The story is very basic, with many of the ups and downs that the cast face blindingly obvious from the get-go. But I'm fine with this because it was executed so well. I came to care about these characters, so their hardships became mine, and same for their successes -- I literally cried in the most recent episode despite knowing what was going to happen. It's this connection that kept me coming back for more each week, and will keep me coming back for a re-watch for some time yet.

It's too soon for me to say that this is one of the best shows I've ever seen (it still has to end, after all), but I can heartily, with no reservations, recommend Shirobako. It is a gem, go watch it gleam.