I think of horcruxes as a sort of backup copy. When Riddle created the diary, it became a sort of safety copy of himself. If Riddle died right then and was resurrected via horcrux and not the ritual from GoF, he would be Riddle just as he was the moment the horcrux was created.

As years went, more advanced copies of Riddle were created, containing more information. Thus, if one the newer horcruxes was used to resurrect Riddle, he would be as old and experienced as the original in the moment the horcrux was created.

This interpretation, while wonky, at least seems to fit with canon.

Also, the entire horcrux system in itself appears to have an in-built redundancy safeguard. Voldemort who was resurrected in canon was the original, with the memories of the ghost-like state in the years after Halloween 1981. But canon also clearly states that resurrection directly via horcrux is possible. This method, unlike the ritual in GoF, seems to require no preparation with the only ingredients being a living person and the horcrux itself.

This is tricky. If the diarycrux had been successful, would it take over as the new original Voldemort, or simply be a copy of the young Riddle, with the original still able to be resurrected? Rowling's statement that Voldemort would've returned then doesn't answer this, because even so young, Riddle already thought of himself as Voldemort.

I spent more time thinking about this than I care to admit. Two fanfics came out of it.

 

The ritual in GOF wasn't exactly to resurrect Voldemort, 'only' to give him his body back. Thanks to his Horcruxes, he never really died, so he couldn't be resurrected.

As to what Diary!Riddle would have been had he succeeded, I think he would have been a copy of the young Riddle, memories and skill included, but still linked to the diary (he's still be a Horcrux, not become a human). IMO, he'd have tried to find the adult Voldemort to give him a body and that's why Voldemort would have returned then and there.

After that, Voldemort's reaction would be anyone's guess, but I doubt he would be willing to sacrifice one Horcrux just to eliminate a pseudo-teenager having the potential to become a powerful servant.

Why would they want to find your Horcrux? Once your semi-dead as you say, they only need to complete the ritual to give you a body, and it doesn't "consume" any Horcrux, despite what too many fics try to tell you.


Concerning Harry, he is not a Horcrux so he can't really give us any knowledge about a human Horcrux. And I'm pretty sure Dumbledore says that the piece of Voldemort's soul 'attached itself to the closest living soul' or something like that when he talks to Snape, so that would make Harry's soul a pseudo-Horcrux/tether to life, not his body. That would explain why it was destroyed by Voldemort's AK, whereas it did nothing to Harry's body.

 

Scott Press, I don't think you've properly understood how horcruxes work. A horcrux is an anchor for the master soul from which it was splintered, preventing that master soul from passing on when its body is destroyed. The master soul is then returned to a body, and the wizard goes on living.

The horcrux itself does not resurrect or change in any way. It doesn't even have to be present at the resurrection. It simply stays as it is, acting as an anchor. So long as it exists, the master soul continues to survive.

What happened with the Diary in CoS was not a resurrection. It was exactly the same process as what happened in DH with the locket: the horcrux was feeding on those who are close to it. Eventually, it would have grown powerful enough to take bodily form, using up all of Ginny's life to do so. But it's still a horcrux, not the master soul. It's simply the horcrux in a different, mobile, container. The master soul has not been resurrected by the transfer of the diary horcrux to a living container; the Diary horcrux would have to go about resurrecting the master soul itself.

 

Aah, but would the corporeal Diary!Tom want to restore the Original!Soul to bodily form. From what we saw of him, Diary!Tom acted exactly as he did in life at that age.

It's entirely possible that 16 year old Tom already had plans on where to travel to after graduation in order to learn new magics and by Ginny telling him how powerful he became in the future he now knows that his plans came to fruition and so knows that in order to gain said power again, he will need only to do what he was already planning on doing. Tom being Tom, he probably already knows how he would react to another Tom running around, so it would be a bad idea to try and resurrect the Original!Soul.

 

Closing the circle:

https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showpost.php?p=810409&postcount=3

 

And now we know why horcrux are such a bad idea.

 

Not really, in chapter 23 of the Half-Blood Prince, Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort doesn't feel it when one of his Horcruxes is destroyed and also that Voldemort would find the thought of being dependant intolerable.

 

Not sure how either of those are relevant.

 

1. How can he have control over something if he can't even tell when its been destroyed.

2. You were postulating that the Horcruxes if given form would be subservient to Voldemort, which is entirely against his character.

 

1. Why would not being aware of its destruction have any impact on his control of it? Destruction and control are conceptually separate. A general doesn't immediately know if one of their soldiers dies, but that doesn't mean they lack the ability to give orders. All the giving of orders requires is knowledge of the existence of the recipient of the orders.

(And besides, Voldemort doesn't even need to actively give orders, if the horcrux has a magical obligation towards him e.g. Narcissa had no idea what Snape was up to in HBP, but that didn't change the fact that Snape had a magically binding obligation towards her.)

2. No it isn't. In fact, it's entirely in line with Voldemort's character that he would not risk the possibility of clone versions of himself being able to usurp him. The horcrux is the subservient entity, not the master soul.

 

1. Not being aware of the destruction of his Horcruxes implies that there is no link between him and them other than the link that tethers him to the world.

2. That's pure speculation on your part, there is no canonical proof that Voldemort compelled his Horcruxes to be subservient to him. You also seem to be forgetting that the Diary!Soul is Tom at age 16 with the personality that goes with it, Tom would see the idea of being dependant intolerable true then and not just as he got older. Diary!Tom would not want to become Voldemort's servant, that would be against his character - all iterations of Voldemort would be against it.

 

While I am inclined to agree with you it isn't a canon established fact. It is just as likely that the horcrux can act independently if it gains a body and might not be subservient to the master.

 

I.e. there is a substantial connection.

Did you read the post I linked? Dumbledore clearly believed that something being a horcrux would give Voldemort control over that thing (Nagini).

You're labouring under this idea that Diary!Tom is a full person, independent of Voldemort like other people. He isn't. Diary Tom does not have his own soul, he's a small part of the real Voldemort.

A soul, traditionally, is a person's essence, their identity. Diary!Tom and Voldemort having the same soul means that they share a single identity. Diary!Tom does not consider himself a separate being to master soul Voldemort, he considers himself the same thing. This is clearly borne out in his CoS conversation with Harry, in which he identifies with the achievements of his later self, and refers to himself as a memory.

 

Dumbledore clearly had conflicting ideas on Voldemort and his connection to his Horcruxes as in your example he believes he has some level of control over them and in the example I gave he believes that Voldemort does not feel it when his Horcruxes are destroyed.

For this I would bring up the spell Serpensortia, when Malfoy summoned the snake he had no control over it, the snake had its own sentience as proved when it attempted to attack Justin Finch-Fletchley. The Horcrux spell is on another level to that, splitting a person's soul. Diary!Tom may have referred to himself as a memory, but he also referred to Lord Voldemort as his future in said CoS conversation, showing that they are in fact separate versions of the same person.

 

I've seen a member here request a Harry/Ginny souls bond fic, with Diary Tom leaving something of himself in Ginny the way Voldemort left something of himself in Harry. Because the link was through Voldemort's soul they were going to gradually go insane. Or something to that effect. (It was in an old Plot Bunny thread.)

I've wonered though- Harry doesn't seem influenced much by the horcrux, so I don't see that Ginny would be either. In fact, if what I am reading here is true they shouldn't actually find out about anything unless they try Legilimency on each other. It would just be a minor soul anchor each for Voldemort.

I really need to find that request again. Maybe it was a story search thread.

 

Goten Askil: Yeah, I know Voldemort never died. "Resurrection" was a thought shortcut.
Taure: I do understand that horcruxes keep the soul from passing on. My speculation is about how horcruxes function beyond that. Whether the horcrux is the piece of soul, the container, or the two together, my point was that given what the soul piece in the diary was capable of on its own, without aid, just by using Ginny, seems to suggest a degree of independence.

I'm also not entirely comfortable with the term "master soul". It seems - to me, this is of course a subjective interpretation - to imply that the soul from which the horcruxes were created is indeed superior to the horcruxes themselves in terms of existing as an actual entity and capability for independent action.

That's why I prefer the term "original soul". Certainly, the soul of the original Voldemort still exists, prevented from passing on by the anchors and if given a new body to inhabit, Voldemort returns to former glory.

However, it would seem that a horcrux, under favorable circumstances, is able to recreate itself in the image of the person Voldemort was at the time of the horcrux's creation. Diary!Riddle seems independent enough. He's certainly corporeal (picks up Harry's wand), capable of using magic (Parseltongue) and beyond some clever wordplay, indicates no knowledge pointing to him remembering anything an older Voldemort would.

Finally, the concept of a master soul suggests horcruxes to be smaller pieces (not whole beings), which suggests that a soul is quantifiable. Original soul suggests horcruxes to be copies, which fits nicely with my interpretation.

No doubt Voldemort was connected to horcruxes somehow, but why did the diary specifically revive a 16 year old Voldemort? Obviously, while horcruxes are anchors, they cannot share "data" between themselves and the original soul, or else why wouldn't the diary revive an adult Voldemort? The obvious future knowledge that Diarymort demonstrates (asking Harry how he survived the KC, when a 16 year old Voldemort in 1942 wouldn't have known about this) came from Ginny. Diarymort learned something new and retained that knowledge, again suggesting that it is in fact a whole, independent entity.

Since I doubt Voldemort would want another himself running around, this is an obvious flaw of horcruxes, but nothing suggests he was aware of it. For all we know, the diary could have been designed merely as a record of Voldemort's school years and Slytherin ancestry, not supposed to be able to revive a 16 year old memory of him.

edit: doubleposting, piece of shit phone

 

What does him not being able to feel it being destroyed have to do with him having control over it? I haven't read the books in years, but I'm almost positive that the castor can't tell that the Imperius Curse has been broken until they directly observe the person under it disobey them. I'd need to read it again to make sure that the instances we see the curse breaking don't line up exactly with the same moment when they refuse though.

I think given the fact that Barty Jr. was able to break the curse and get the drop on his dad without a wand lends to the idea that the castor doesn't know, and they very much had a connection between them that allowed for complete control.

 

Entirely different aspects of magic, my friend. The Horcrux spell deals with the soul, splitting it apart to tether the castor to the world and therefore preventing their death. The Imperius curse deals with the mind and taking complete control over a person and their actions. With the Imperius it is possible to plant long-term mental suggestions into the victim's subconscious causing them to carry out the desires of the castor, this effect has never been suggested when dealing with Horcruxes, which is what Taure was implying when he theorized that the Horcruxes would be subservient to Lord Voldemort (the Original!Soul).

Now, what does this have to do with Voldemort not feeling the destruction of his Horcruxes, I'll tell you. With the link we already know about between castor and Horcrux, you would think that they would be able to tell that their Horcrux was no longer active and thus that they were mortal but if there were no other links other than the tether then how could they take control of the Horcrux as has been suggested. You should also take into effect that as Nagini is an animal, even though she has sentience she is a lot easier for Voldemort to control than a human or being, using both Parseltongue and Legilimency.

 

"Master soul" is the exact term JKR uses, which I quoted in this thread on page one:

The soul being fragmented/splintered is direct book canon; the idea of horcruxes as copies is a direct contradiction of the books. This is why I said I don't think you understand them.

The reason why the soul fragment contained within the diary manifests as Tom Riddle is because that was the condition of the soul piece at the time it was fragmented from the master. It has an independent mind from Voldemort (master soul) but not an independent being: they are of one soul. The horcrux has always had a physical form (the diary) and it's well established that horcruxes can exist in a living container (Nagini), so using Ginny's "life force" to create a new container for itself (16 year old body of Tom Riddle) is no great challenge to horcrux mechanics. It simply means that a horcrux, given sufficient strength, is capable of transferring itself to a new container. It doesn't stop being a horcrux, even if the new container is a living container. Living containers are not anathema to being a horcrux.

Dumbledore took this into account already when he said Voldemort's control of Nagini was unusual even for a parselmouth.

Honestly, you're reaching here to deny something that's moderately explicit in canon.

Dumbledore says Voldemort's level of control of Nagini is evidence that Nagini is a horcrux.

For this to be true, it must be the case that something being your horcrux gives you control over it.

If something being a horcrux didn't give the creator control over it, then Nagini being under an unusual level of control would not support the conclusion that she was a horcrux. That would mean Dumbledore was talking nonsense.

So therefore, either:

A) Master souls can control their horcruxes, including their living horcruxes.

Or

B) Dumbledore, our soul source of information about horcruxes and authority on magic in general, didn't know what he was talking about, and just got lucky in his guess that Nagini was a horcrux.

 

Which is why there is a quote where Albus points out that Voldemort has an usual amount of control over Nagini. This implies that the horcrux definitely has an effect on how much control Voldemort can exert over it and that it isn't just because of his ability as a Parselmouth or Legilimency.