Heather Sinclair has a new Worm/MCU fanfic .

It's worth a read.

 

Cleanrag:

Outside the story? The thing I'm always trying to work is letting the reader recognize what the PoV doesn't.

Much of Wake was a writing exercise, an attempt to work on aspects that needed particular work. Coming out of Cenotaph, I thought my action scenes were weak; Wake is heavy on action. (Too heavy for balance, but that needed learning too).

Inside the story, Doyle? Sacrifice, theme, and surprise. Beating Jack without loss didn't fit; relatively few normals had gotten fleshed out at all. Having someone whom the readers thought (initially, intended retrospective reevaluation of that) was part of the scenery make a difference fits the theme of Jack losing due to normal interference. Basically, same reason Wildbow went with a faceless Dragon's Tooth in canon. And surprise... wanted to pump-fake his defeat to maintain suspense, and also distraction. First by disabling Taylor's powers (is she now technically a normal?), second with Donny and the shotgun, and then third and finally with Pete. Intended to keep readers guessing on Jack's defeat, not thinking about Scion listening to Taylor's argument with Jack (though if they notice that too, should only add another layer of suspense).

Inside the story, Watson? Taylor had spoken to him once, and that was at her father's funeral, when she was understandably distracted. No reason for her to recognize him at all.

(Wouldn't have done an additional interlude or added wordcount: might have replaced Burnscar's interlude with essentially the same events from the perspective of the bouncer, Donny).

Cxjenious: will be glad of critique, if so! (If you're looking for reading recommendations generally, happy to talk about that too. Running short there myself).

 

Danny yelling at Taylor really reminded me of My Immortal. It was that out of character(of what little we already have) that I just closed the tab out.

What's even weirder is that I'm 90% sure she told him she was going to out to do... whatever it was that she did.

 

Kryptonian!Taylor is pretty bad. Glory Girl is hilariously out of character, and along with Danny and Armsmaster, though the rewrite is a bit better. During the (basically rehashed) bank fight, Taylor's super speed thinking and perception is conveniently not helpful until after GG attacks, which makes the whole fic feel contrived.

edit:
Not a huge fan of Heather's 'The Valkyrior'. It suffers from Taylor not feeling much like Taylor. It feels like her version of Taylor from Survivor-- more callous, a bit more prone to cursing, stuff like that. The writing is technically good, but Taylor doesn't feel like Taylor.

 

I'm with you on this, and I've made my dislike of the fic wellknown in the past. I think it comes from the fact that we're well entrenched in the HP fandom. We've seen fads and tropes come and go, or just come and stick around for no apparant reason. DLP has been around for a long time, and some of us have developed a filter for these kinds of stories, a filter that other websites don't have, the rose-tinted goggles, if you will.

Cenotaph reminds me of a story like Nightmare of Futures Past, or a Summer of Change. They were revolutionary at their time (10 years ago), but now, they are severly outdated and bland. Cenotaph reads like a generic, indy story. We're able to recognize that, and it's just not very interesting because of that.

The difference is that Worm is a new fandom. There are very few stories to compare it against, and in the fandom, it doesn't have the be the pinnacle of fiction - everything else just has to be worse, and that's sort of where I feel Cenotaph falls. Just because everything else is bad sort of defaults stories that are even marginally decent into the limelight. That's not an excuse, in my opinion, but I'm only one person. I'm trying to not use the word 'pioneer', but I really hope a story like Cenotaph spawns someone to write a trully great story, something like the Worm version of the Denarian Trilogy which will be looked back fondly for the next ten years, but I doubt it will happen, going by the current state of the fandom.

 

I think Cenotaph is better than a 'generic Indy' story. It's true that it's not perfect, and one of the reasons it's so acclaimed is that the Worm fandom is lacking in good works.

But on it's own merits, I think it gets up to 4/5 range. The characterization of many characters, while distinct from canon, is done well. Armsmaster is top notch, though he diverges significantly from Defiant. The E88 chapter where Stormtiger takes out the Butcher is also a great scene.

 

May I ask what a 'generic, Indy story' is? I haven't heard the term. I tried google, but it just gave me Indiana Jones fics.

 

It comes from the time shortly after the Goblet of Fire was released, where HP fanfiction writers would have Harry cut his ties to Dumbledore and his friends in order to become 'independent'. Usually these stories were pretty bland, with overly manipulative or outright evil characterisations of Dumbledore and the rest, but at the time they were new and exciting and gave Harry a chance to be awesome on his own.

That's what an indy fic is.

 

I think 4/5 for Cenotaph is a fair rating. It's not meh enough for 3/5, but it didn't quite leave the impression of a 5/5.

That KryptonianTaylor is closer to awful. On the flip side, I just really like Superman and his assorted cousins/clones. I think, with a better writer, it could be a good character piece kind of thing. Someone mentioned earlier how such a fic could work. You'd need to make use of some pretty powerful capes - aside from Endbringers and Scion - for any sort of real physical conflict/peril though. Probably not all that hard to do; some of the international capes were powerful enough to serve as mini bosses between Endbringer fights.

 

Thanks! I can see how that kind of story is attractive. With a 'main character against the world' setup, you can strongly identify with that single main character and get deep into their heads. That probably makes it easier for the author to write, and easier for readers to engage.

Personally I liked Cenotaph and Wake a lot. I think they do have some flaws and rough spots. If I had to list the ones I remember:

Spoiler

- somewhat choppy writing style in places (e.g. the way thoughts and paragraphs are split up)
- canon divergence hinged on a few pretty diabolically unlikely coincidences (heroes jokingly calling her "Tailor", that being used to deduce her identity by Stalker, that somehow getting to Bakuda and being used to bomb her house). I felt the fic's premise could've been set up in a more plausible/natural way, to fit the well-handled naturalness of the rest of the story.
- a few interludes, like Burnscar's
- sometimes didn't seem clear how a plot point was resolved (e.g. how did Taylor get such confident knowledge about what Burnscar was seeking and how she could be handled?)

However, I was able to read through these without being disengaged too much from the story.

I especially liked the characterization (of nearly all characters), the intricate plotting of cape factions / politics / fights, several themes that were woven nicely into the story (e.g. Taylor learning from each of her friends and enemies, and applying those lessons to good effect).

I feel like notes purposefully put less-than-maximum attention to some parts of the writing to focus on other parts and to keep a strict publishing schedule (I think he explicitly said this somewhere?), and for me at least it paid off! I may be in the minority opinion, but if you give me a choice between 5 chapters with every aspect fully polished, vs 10 chapters with several aspects I like done very well and the other aspects left unpolished...I might like the 10 chapter story!

Of course it wouldn't appeal to as many readers, e.g. the readers who put high importance on the aspects the author purposefully left unpolished, or readers who simply can't get into a story if they notice any unpolished parts at all. But the readers who do like the focused-on aspects and can look past the other bits will get more of the content they like.

 

A Supergirl story can work if you go with lower-end interpertations of Superman. Those exist. Golden-Age Superman or the Justice League animation Superman both work well.

Significantly stronger than Alexandria (given she can use building girders as a bat, they're in the same ballpark), but less durable. Has powerful Blaster abilities-- but they don't overshadow Legend's, who is much more versatile and just as powerful. Probably vulnerable to a variety of Master effects. Has superspeed and super reaction times, which is pretty rare in Worm, but not a complete curbstomp.



Etc.

Basically, Superman can be left at a level of power where there ARE still opponents, not just Endbringers or Scion, that he can't just easily handle. If you go with Superman Prime levels of power, then sure, the story ends with a single punch, but not if you use a different version.

 

Anarchy:
Worm is a thin fandom, compared to Harry Potter. Pretty much everything is. As it grows - if it grows - sheer numbers are likely to push the level of writing higher, and that's as it should be.

Thinker6:
Cenotaph's beginning, and the coincidence, are definitely weak. Those parts were written as arguments (rebutting 'it would have taken something big to get Taylor into the Wards' and 'clearly, happy endings are in store now', as I recall).

Haven't found a clean way to fix that yet, and haven't prioritized it over other possible writing exercises.

Can't argue with the need to write more smoothly, nor that not all interludes prospered as intended. As for how Taylor got information on Elle/Burnscar - that's in the dossiers read by Taylor back in 3.1. Several other readers missed that setup, which indicates a misjudgment on my part.

Personally, would rather get a story right than go for volume... but don't think I have that skill yet, and do think that volume is critical to improvement. It was less a case of deliberately leaving polish off, and more a case of still trying to learn how to polish better.

side note: the standard failure mode for 'indy fics', to my eye, is that they rarely let other characters be awesome (or even competent, sometimes). The virtue is as you describe.

Cxjenious:
if there's anything concrete (on that, or Wake) I'd be glad to hear it! Else, still glad that it entertained more than it had on your previous two times (perhaps a low hurdle, but still).

 

Personally, I was miffed the way Coil was taken down so easily in Cenotaph. Sure, you can argue Coil had plot armor in canon, but considering all the pains Taylor had to take to neutralize him, it was extremely disappointing that Coil wasn't even treated as a significant obstacle in Cenotaph.

(Plus, you should have killed Dinah. Why didn't you kill Dinah? Why?)

Also, I personally preferred Wake to Cenotaph. You somehow managed to convince me that Taylor would actually join the Slaughterhouse 9, while keeping them all in character. That's an auto-awesome from me.

 

Coil's tricky. Give him initiative, and it's hard to write anything which doesn't include Coil thinking that he's winning, and that restricts the outcome to 'mistaken victory' as in canon. Played with having Taylor conclude (almost correctly) that he was PRT undercover, but thought that would tilt it into farce.

The other way of handling it (that I'd thought of - there are surely others) was a Thinker-off. Hide and seek, with death as the stakes. Given Dinah and Coil are both top-tier Thinkers, that's hard to pull off... so opted to set up a situation that looked like a Thinker war with someone good enough to predict their predictions, but was actually Coil dealing with someone who got the same information he did (in the realities he kept, anyway).

Downside: if it ever really comes down to physical force, Coil isn't a threat.

Then again, I have a hard time writing fights as even. Without someone deliberately arranging a matched fight, I think they're rarely balanced. Current working theory for producing close-run fights between competent, prepared opponents is to go for multiple mistaken understandings on each side (about the circumstances, about each other), so that each side plausibly believes the fight worth taking. (And/or relax the assumptions about competent and prepared).

As for Dinah... had a plot thread involving her in mind (not the predictions, actually: the relations), and haven't gotten to it.

Glad you liked Wake! Had a lot of fun trying to keep the S9 both human and terrifying.

 

Oh! Well, in that case, I'd say that the aspects you were good at writing/polishing were ones I tend to like a lot in a story, and overlapped a lot with Worm's best points!

I think Cenotaph gave you a big advantage in avoiding this pitfall, and that's one of the reasons it worked so well. Taylor's power is excellent for surveillance and taking down enemies at range in an ambush, but is weak against direct opposition once they get sight of her and close in. So there are a lot of enemies she can't realistically take down on her own.

I really liked how you took this premise and ran with it, having her specialize in maneuvering enemies against each other, and recruiting allies to help her. Not only did your choice give the story a nice 'exploring the factions / politics' aspect, it also meant that lots of other characters got a chance to shine as being awesome (Lung, Krieg (politically/tactically), New Wave, Eidolon, ...).

As a part of this, I liked how you gave the sense of Brockton Bay being a rich complex system functioning on its own, and Taylor doing her best to butt in and throw in wrenches; as opposed to many fics where the world increasingly centers on / bends to the main character as they stomp through it.

I remember this hitting home for me in the chapter where Taylor spies on a meeting between the splintered E88 factions, and realizes that despite everything she's done, Krieg is welding them back together with his intelligence and political skill. And they discuss well-laid plans for beating the other factions, and Taylor (and we readers) listen and care about them, because they're vital to know for reaching her goals. Unlike how in many fics the thrust of the narrative is 'faction X and Y are fighting, but the details don't matter much since the protag will beat them by fighting them head on, one-by-one'.

 

Coil is a pretty weak individual. He relies entirely on an organization and has only a limited ability to affect the outcome of his plots. Once he is discovered his defeat is almost inevitable.

His power is perhaps the most overrated thing in the fandom. Life doesn't exist in a series of binary choices. Having a superhuman ability to interpret the world around you would be far more useful than the gimmick Coil got. The most useful aspect of it was intelligence gathering. It was great when he was a bottom feeder, but the instant he moved on to more serious opponents he got brought down hard. To take down Coil you wouldn't even need to know his power, you would just have to cover the possible choices he would make.

In Cenotaph Taylor decided to go after Coil because he was the ideal target for her. A low end but successful drug runner. He was almost begging for some newbie to come knocking on his door, and arrogantly believed he could handle it. Without knowing the threat he faces and on the defensive his power becomes completely worthless.

 

Thinker6:

That sense of a rich complex system is not something I do as well as I'd like, but it is one of the things I like to read and try to write. Different factions, different plans, different ideas of the good and how to pursue it... all active all the time, not just when the protagonist is watching, and with their own victories, defeats, and even storylines.

Cenotaph had an explicit goal of letting other characters be awesome, as did Wake. Not interesting to watch the protagonist beat someone who isn't a threat; hard to fear someone who you're told is a threat, but haven't seen in action. (The traditional solution to this, having the threat beat the protagonist on first meeting and lose in the climax, isn't a bad one... but a richer tapestry is better, I think).

 

Not to nitpick but isn't the ability to reduce the world to a series of binary choices the essence of Coil's power? I suppose in a vacuum it's nothing to impressive, but then again in a vacuum Taylor and Lisa are nothing to write home about either.

What made Coil such a big deal was that his power could be supplemented by one of the most power precogs in the world informing him of the most perfect choices to split the world by. And when things got to hot the ability to call on one of the most powerful organizations in the world as covert backup.

 

Coil doesn't get to reduce the world down to a binary choice. He gets to make two choices and pick the one he likes the most. Take note that that doesn't fork. If he makes a choice that will take a month to see to fruition he has removed his ability to use his power for an entire month. If he doesn't get it right in either choice he is screwed. If he plays it safe and fails he wasted an investment of time and came up short accomplishing nothing. Someone like Dinah, or Tattletale would be able to choose the right path from the get go because they have the ability to perceive the right choice. Which is why he valued other thinkers so highly. Note that he went after children. Because he would not be able to control experienced capes half as easily. Every adult thinker in the series would have screwed him over if he tried those stunts with them. Tattletale did in the end.

That in mind the chain of events in Coil defeat in Cenotaph made a frightening amount of sense. His power isn't useless, but it isn't enough to deal with the enemies he would make while trying to accomplish his goals. One mistake, and he is screwed. Anyone who has done a Nuzlocke run can empathize with how relying on Dinah's power is a terrible idea. Those 5% chances of failure will happen for him.

 

You guys are forgetting that the plan to defeat Coil in Cenotaph worked only because Tattletale set him up. Reread the scene. Coil takes a phone call from Tt. and the following (one-sided) conversation ensues:

So the only reason the plan succeeds is because Tt, knowing that Taylor was trying this, baits Coil into cancelling his "safe" timeline, presumably one where he didn't go into his base that morning.