Hi Rubicon.

You're not as enthusiastic about greeting me as you were last game.

---------- Post automerged at 22:43 ---------- Previous post was at 22:42 ----------

I'm going to interpret this as 'you are my strongest townread and i will not randomly lead a literal last-minute bandwagon on you,' in which case, yay. <3

---------- Post automerged at 22:44 ---------- Previous post was at 22:43 ----------

My dream is for Jan, Rubicon, blab, and Citrus to all be town. I wonder which of you will disappoint me.

 

That's true.

---------- Post automerged at 07:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 PM ----------

It's blab. Spoiler.

 

I'd vote you for it if I didn't find your cold indifference to be so typical.

---------- Post automerged at 22:46 ---------- Previous post was at 22:46 ----------

Yeah, that's what I thought too.

We'll see.

 

Why? I mean, it's witty, but why is it town?

Ok. Wasn't my question though.

Mostly meta. Ask me again in ~24 hours. And read High Noon. That would be cool. It's short.

 

He had me as strong town early D1, but not like this. With what he's doing here he's indicating that it's for a very specific thing, which is the heart of my confusion regarding him.

Here's the post I'm talking about from Narutomafia, with the correct colors filled in by me, mostly because the green/red/green block is pretty funny. Bolded part added by me for emphasis.

What's your point, Rubicon?

If you know how to read Citrus from all this, please enlighten me.

 

It's not like if he said "kill the Snowvon!" he's stuck with that opinion 100% committed forever and ever.

I asked it to see how he talked about you guys and how he reacted, which looks like it's paying out dramatically

---------- Post automerged at 10:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 PM ----------

Wow holy shit that red/green blocking though

---------- Post automerged at 10:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 PM ----------

Also I got confused again when I saw Mathblade colored green then all the repressed memories came back...

 

ikr.

Citrus, can you walk me through the His Fluff thing again? Specifically, why the mindset is ONLY wolfy? Like, his initial post back to your question was kind of what I was thinking - like, "wtf is Citrus asking that question for, that's a random hypothetical"?

And because HF doubled down on the second prod and attacked you, you think that's only a wofly mindset?

Like, I'm town this game and I kinda did the same thing to Vera - the second time I got prodded by Vera I saw that as reaching / painting, and I pushed back pretty hard. Isn't it natural to push back against someone when their starting point is so, for lack of a better word, bad?

The things that bother me about HF are that first post that seemed like it was fishing for a mislynch on blab, and then the fact that he did actually OMGUS vote you, which is a little, eh... reactionary? Not that I suppose I'm one to talk, glass houses and all.

I dunno, you seem to think you have a slam dunk case but I don't see it.

tl;dr, Show me what you think a town!His Fluff response to your 2nd prod would have been, and why his actual response came from a different mindset.

Also,

Unvote

Citrus if you're a wolf I'm going to be pretty upset.

 

Reading thread from opening. Compiling thoughts on players and behavior thus far.

---------- Post automerged 08-10-2015 at 00:33 ---------- Previous post was 08-09-2015 at 23:43 ----------

Beginning: Snow RVS's Blab. Jan RVS's Snow. I don't RVS Snow but meta-vote him from Narumafia. Scott seemingly RVS's Snow under pretense of avatar change. That's three votes on Snow inside of the first hour.

Conclusion; potential for town voting town is decent. Akin to Narumafia opening with Math getting voted three times by town. However, Scott chooses the same color as Jan. Odd.

Wei pops in to vote me for misunderstanding my RVS comment on Snow. I counter and give my reasons for Snow(re; meta concerns) and why Jan has been given a pass in the same scenario.

Snow +'s Wei, weakly +'s me while also offering room for doubt, -'s Scott. Also soft-accuses Jan of being Scum in a joshing sort of way.

Scott's response in #9 is extremely lacking. We have a plethora of strongly visible colors to vote in and going 'well everyone else was doing it so I did too' is eh, but more specifically in how he says it, "it looked like people were throwing out random votes" comes off as reaching.

Wei backs off after my response. Snow ding's Scott for his 'RVS' which doesn't look so random after two other players ~forty minutes earlier have voted for a player.

Conclusion; Scott is creeping up my wall as scummy.

Scott unvotes Snow but then does not RVS another player with the excuse of having no opinions(protip; that's why its called a random vote). HF pops up with filler but prods Snow over RVS defensiveness(trying to take some heat off of Scott?). Snow counters with doubt on veracity of random vote.

Vira pops in to vote Wei for his color choice. Wei's explanation falls short - dark purple is pretty noticeable as an atrocious color choice from the posting box even bolded.

Snow and Vira filler-y banter. Jan pops in with counter-joshing to Snow's soft accusation of Scum. Jan also has an extremely unrealistic portrayal of Scum to Town for a 12-man game. Eido and Kalas would not allow for that proportion of disparity. 3 scum in a 13 player game is more realistic, but for 12 players? That's iffy without running the Days and Nights through LyLo calculation.

Also, how in the name of heaven do you manage to put a T at the start of my name yet type weiyaoli without a hitch, Jan? Pushes for Citrus to help him, highlights Snow's activity level difference between Narumafia and here, then unvotes.

Conclusion; Jan is also creeping up, Snow is staying in the middle to low.

Don't like Blab's opening line. Rubicon can stand or fall on his own merits. Blab throws a waffle at Snow.

Citrus pops in to vote Blab. RVS-ish. Filler-y. Scott presses Jan on activity which Jan interprets as Snow's activity. Jan's post reads odd for format. If he's going to directly address Scott/'s question, why do so as if trying to be informal at the opening yet speaking to him straight on by the bottom? Jan does push Scott for why he mentioned being new and finishes off with calling Blab high town with Rubicon.

HF's post to Jan is odd. Mentions Blab +ing Snow as suspect. I accuse Jan of trying to get Blab NK'd and say why I believe that, finishing with moving my vote to Jan.

Jan's response is lacking. He tries to wave it off as a gambit to mess with new players. +'s HF dinging Blab, generally dings Blab.

New backs Jan's gambit. And in response to New on Cop N0 check, I've never seen that. I don't see a mention of that under the wiki, either. New null's Scott while offering room to backtrack. Ding's Jan on the N0 Cop check mention. Rubicon pops in for filler. Jan answers New on Scott.

Conclusion: New is starting to ping scummy. Jan rising up my wall.

Pausing at post #30.

 

Zenzao, the bulk of my Mafia spectating has been the Championship games and watching DM, both of which have N0 cop checks. Narutomafia is actually only game I've read that didn't, so from my PoV it would be weird if this one didn't. /shrug, just my experience. I have no idea if it's different in closed setups.
his fluffiness: thoughts on Vira and Seratin?
Seratin: thoughts on Vira and His Fluffiness?
Vira: thoughts on Seratin and His Fluffiness?

 

On Vira:

Her early read-wall set off alarms with some people but there wasn't much content and it seems like she was just getting her head in the game. In post #74 she seems pretty town, continuing to question Newcomb and Citrus who at that stage were setting off alarm bells.

In post #84 she continues the debate with newcomb but since pressure on him eased her post seems like it's trying too hard to townclaim with talk of her experience and style of scum hunting.

Conclusion: Either town with a hunch or scum with tunnel vision. Leaning towards the former.


On HF: Took a jab at blab early in post #25 and his reasoning felt more like he was trying to sway people into a potential early bandwagon.

He then went after someone who'd barely posted, Wei, for his LYLO comment. Now that could have just been a maths derp on his part but it felt like he was trying to point the spotlight with flimsy reasoning.

His debate with Citrus makes things interesting. Citrus' question was odd off the bat but I've seen weirder in mafia. Instead of getting along with it he hard pressed back which if he genuinely thinks Citrus is scum is reasonable but it smells to me like a revenge press. Revenge pressing is anti-town.

Conclusion: I think HF is acting shifty but if he and Citrus are buddies then they're going about it really weirdly. It's making me think less about Citrus right now.

 

I don't quite understand what you mean by this sentence. Why does it matter that we don't really know what possible roles are there yet? If anything, any discussion of how PRs act not only possibly leaks who is a PR and who is not, but is pretty useless filler content. Scum can discuss all day how they think PRs may act to appear active without actually doing any scum-hunting.

I also feel it's kinda inaccurate to say the above. I mean there might be red herrings like a miller with no cop in a set-up, but it's more likely at this point in D1 that scum with their knowledge of their roles have a better idea of what town roles there are. (e.g. if there is a godfather there is a good chance of there being a cop)

I feel this is a slight misrepresentation of the situation. Reading through again, Citrus had some attention/suspicion when he made his post (#56), but actual pressure on Citrus only really came after [Votes from Newcomb (#58), followed immediately by fluff (#59)].

What do you make of his total non-reaction to your reaction-testing one liner though? Do you feel it is towny, scummy or null to engage with you in a discussion about how PRs roles should play?

What does TMI stand for?

It's lines like the first one that gives me mixed feelings about the Citrus/Newcomb interaction. Like it's not suspicious by itself, but the lack of any follow-up comments on Citrus/Seratin makes it read like he's trying to buddy up to Citrus. I didn't really read too much into the Citrus defending Newcomb and the subsequent suspicion from Newcomb initially - as someone who doesn't know what the heck is Citrus is talking about, I pretty just was ignoring it until Newcomb responds. But I feel he overstated how he and Citrus were unaligned off of their earlier interaction:

I can sort of follow along his thought processes about Citrus. I like his suspicion/paranoia about Citrus suddenly calling him town for a mysterious reason and the timing when it happened. But I'm not really following why he now believes Citrus is town. After Vira/fluff answers your questions Newcomb, can you explain your thoughts on fluff's case against Citrus?

Also (similarly after Vira/fluff answers) why those three people?

---------- Post automerged at 10:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 AM ----------

More detailed thoughts on citrus/fluff to come later, I ran out of time before work.

 

Seeing as this seems to be a thing, I'll use colors to represent my general opinion of the players.

Zenzao

You're scumhunting and your latest post makes some good points - or at least it appears to. However:

In your first post you voted for Snowvon, then immediately said you don't believe in RVS at game start. Next post, you cited a previous game where Snow was scum and faked well. Play style is relevant, but previous role is not. Why does Snow being scum last time make you think he could be scum now? I don't buy that.

You then changed your vote to Jan, whom you mentioned before, after he made a claim with little to no information. At that point I didn't like Jan myself, so I privately agreed with it. Jan then posted baiting you. That made me like Jan even less, but regardless, it put you on the watchlist as well.

Then you went quiet for some time while everyone else was posting and your next post is a wall-read of the first 30 posts. Let's see.

My response about the color was "extremely lacking". I used the same color as someone else and voted for the same person. Suspicious? Okay, I'll give you that. That wasn't a good first post. I could say that I saw two posts above mine and two of them used a color easily visible on the forum green and the third one picked a crappy one. An you used the same invisible blue again. That's why I find your one-paragraph lecture to me in post #108 smelling of scum.

Snowvon

You jumped on things that pinged your radar from the start, we had a small exchange, then you dropped out for a while and came back with a bigger post. With your name at the top of your read. Joke? Trying really hard to present yourself as town? You know what you are, you're analyzing other players, not yourself. Question: what was the reason for putting your name on the list in post #62?

I said I was waiting for more posts from you because what you did post didn't reveal much. You started the game, but then the sprint ended and your subsequent posts (with few exceptions) were short and left me feeling ambiguous. I did like #96 though. For now, I'd say 60/40 town/scum with you.

Jan

You came off as confrontational in the first few posts, openly admitting to baiting people. That's why you moved into red at the beginning. Post #61 made me think maybe that's just how you play and I started watching Zenzao instead. Like I said previously (#89), I don't have a firm opinion on you yet, but I would lean towards town ever so slightly.

weiyaoli

You talked about game mechanics more than you actually played the game up until your last post. As with Jan, no strong opinion, but based on #111, I'd say town.

his fluffiness

Literally the only thing that happened with you was Citrus' question, where the exchange got a little heated. I did think that the question would pull your read on Snow if you answered straight up. You half-answered, by which I mean that you addressed the question, but didn't really answer it. I thought townies would try to be more transparent than that. Your post claiming the question was impossible to answer came off as defensive when it didn't need to be. For the moment, I'm thinking you may be scum.

Vira

Similarly to weiyaoli, there's not a lot go on, but what's there makes me think town.

blab

The most interesting thing you did was voting Vira out of the blue and your answer to Rubicon about it means nothing to me. Strange first post, then some that seem to make sense, but generally a big question mark. No opinion yet.

Citrus

You jumped on fluffiness for avoiding the question, which I agreed with. I think you're town.

Rubicon

No read yet. Few posts that don't say much. If I absolutely had to make a choice here, I'd lean town.

Seratin

Your posts present some concrete points, nothing jumped out at me as shifty. Most likely town.

Newcomb

You are all over the place. You jumped right into defending other people, then defended yourself and got in the middle of everything. You said Citrus seemed scum to you for straight up calling you town, then you did the same thing with me (#93). You voted Rubicon and then Citrus for no solid reason that I could see in either case.

You used your status as sort-of-new-to-mafia-still-but-not-really-anymore against Vira in #75 and you keep calling yourself transparent and towny.

Lastly, you jumped at me for not posting wall-reads early into the game or something.

You seem like someone who rolled scum for the first time and is nervously trying to figure out how to fake genuine scumhunting.

Vote Newcomb

 

Is someone going to claim I'm buddies with every single person I make a concrete read/statement/accusation on? This seriously feels kinda silly

---------- Post automerged at 08:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 AM ----------

Zenzao, we only have like 100 posts and your method of going through them got you stuck only 30 in (because of the sheer amount of time spent). That's not going to be sustainable when we've been hitting >500 posts in D1's pretty consistently

---------- Post automerged at 08:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 AM ----------

My issues with Fluffiness are, in summary:

1) His continued refusal to answer the question I gave.
It's not a difficult question, and it's weird how he just squirms and misdirects and just WILL NOT answer it. The initial being weirded out/doesn't answer straight away is good, the continued refusal to answer and squirming is bad.

2) His defensiveness
He perceived a simple question to him as an attack. The only thing I feel like it could have been perceived to do is begin to put a spotlight on him, which town isn't usually super defensive for (especially early on in a long day)

3) His attacking me
Rather than answer the question, the way he addresses it is attacking me for it. It adds to the squirmy-ness/misdirection and it just doesn't make sense from a town perspective. I think you used the word OMGUS (or someone did) about it. Normally that's for A voting B and then B voting A back, I guess this fits here as a variation if Fluffiness perceived my question as an attack and immediately voted me back for it.

Still waiting on Fluffiness's response but I don't think he's been in-thread since his last post so yeah

---------- Post automerged at 08:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 AM ----------

What specifically are some of the concrete points that you liked?

What do you think of his comments on how PR's play verses how non-PR's play?

 

Because I do not follow the usual process that RVS entails, voting a person at random. I vote a player because I suspect them of something, even if it is based off of older games. I hit Math at the start of Narumafia because her opening post reminded me of her behavior and the behavior of the Scumteam in WH11. I voted Snow here because he proved himself to be extremely capable of masquerading as a townie for the first few Days while being Scum and I am therefore watching his behavior to see if he sticks to the same or not. I explained this to Wei and now you.

The odds are fair to every player winding up as either town or Scum. But some players have rolled Scum in close succession - Rubicon comes to mind between CYS(Cult), Endgames(Scum), Narumafia(Scum replace-in). Some players are better gifted at hiding their behavior - Kalas(CYS, Narumafia), Snow(Narumafia), TerRaine(CYS). In a game with a player that's pretty good at blending in, I'm going to start off viewing them from a glass half full perspective.

Jan had zero reason to say what he did at that time other than "Titus!Gambit" which is bullshit. Of course I'm going to shift to him in the instance of directly scummy statement over just watching Snow for suspicious behavior. Why does that put me on a watchlist for you?

I was asleep. I skimmed what I could when I woke up and decided it was easier to start over after seeing things were at 6 pages to reassess interactions at that point.

Really, "invisible blue"? Hardly. I used the same color all of Narumafia except for when I was trying to draw attention to the DayEnd clock. And at the time I was in bed writing from mobile, I don't know the color code for a brighter shade and used the default [ color=blue][/ color] code and that's what it came out as.

I'll be getting through posts 31-70 something later. I'll also go over your wall once I have and see if it matches up to my own findings.

 

Good morning.

Scott, there's no special reason why I put myself on my own readslist. It's a thing most people do here. For aesthetic purposes, you could say.

 

Citrus

This one for example. And the rest of that post too, though excluding his opinion regarding you specifically.

I don't know what PR is.
Zenzao

No one's arguing that anyone has a chance to roll scum. And if you know players from previous games, more power to you. But even if someone kept rolling scum, what bearing does that have on their chances of being scum now? That part of your argument doesn't stick.

Because it looked like a knee-jerk reaction to me.

Please. Of course we have to sleep. I wasn't condemning you for that. That was a statement of fact.

Yes, really. Invisible blue. Can you comfortably read that without highlighting? Your whole "argument from color" was stupid at best.
Snowvon

Fair enough.

 

strong roles = power roles = roles with a night action

ScottPress

 

Because it means I have Meta to examine a player for and I'm going to apply it. You voted Snow for avatar changing. I voted Snow for rolling Scum last game and I'm letting him know that I'm eying him for tells. Weak reasons between us both, yes? Yet more than the typical RVS behavior. Snow is apply meta when he says I behave in a certain way - as he did back on page one. I've only ever seen Snow from a town perspective in previous games up until Narumafia and him now having a Scum game for me to cross examine against his behavior here is something I fully intend to do, starting with voting him.

HOLD IT!.

"Then you went quiet for some time while everyone else was posting" sounds like an accusation to me.

Given I used it all last game, yes, I can comfortably read that. Wei's purple disaster is another thing. You used the same exact color that Jan used and voted for the same player with a minimal attempt at justifying it instead of just flying with the excuse most players so early do in RVS, but when called out you don't then vote for anyone else but just go sulk about being called out, more-or-less saying "well I've got nothing on anybody else" for why you don't vote for one of the remaining 10 players.

---------- Post automerged at 11:24 ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 ----------

Also, Scott, this reminds me of OMGUS coming from you, only neither of us has actually voted the other player.

I intended to go back to bed around that point in time, but yes, I have to agree it was already feeling tedious. Doesn't mean I'm going to stop. I plan to be caught up with the examination well before we're over 150 posts.

 

Huh, the thread didn't move as much as I thought it would.

Seratin’s posts are shallow and seem off, like he’s trying to give the impression of scumhunting. His first post’s attempt to get reactions from people and the response for being called out on it were weak. Generally scummy to me.

Fluff is leaning slightly town, though I haven't been paying much attention to him. His dispute with Citrus has me siding with him, so that helps a whole bunch.

Honestly, I think the question is kind of stupid. It’s just one question, let it go and try something else instead of hammering at a bent nail. If this is your only evidence that Fluff is scum, maybe take a step back and concentrate on other people for a while. This is only giving me the impression that you’re using it as an excuse to get Fluff lynched.

It’s not about you reading it, it’s about us reading it. Your color’s awful and I have to highlight it every time. Wei’s was worse but he switched when it was pointed out to him. Just use a lighter blue.

 

I'm bored, and Kalas is NEGLECTING US so have a votal while I reread players.

Newcomb (2): Vira, ScottPress
Citrus (2): his fluffiness, Seratin
Seratin (1): Snowvon
Jan (1): Zenzao
Vira (1): blab
his fluffiness (1): Citrus

Abstaining (4): Rubicon, weiyaoli, Jan, Newcomb

---------- Post automerged at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 ----------

I kind of agree with this.