If and when I apologize I will do so of my own accord. Please don't put words in my mouth. You've come across as awfully presumptuous so far.

Sorry for that confusion, but the rest of my case against you still stands. Not quite willing to throw blind trust in someone who was the first to get another player under the bus at the drop of a hat, for questionable reasons.

You literally quoted the post in which I said it was a mistake. That was why it happened. This post is really, really scummy.

I like you.

Given the fact that my original argument against Irene has developed holes, but my suspicion of Sesc still stands, that's where I'm voting.

Withdraw Vote
Vote Sesc

I'm willing to leave my lump on Citrus because despite my mistaking the original post situation I still read him town. The fact that he was so particular in pointing out my and Irene's mistake reinforces that. Why poke at an issue that's benefiting you? I was at Irene and townreading him about it. If he were a witch I don't see him so abruptly and definitively pointing that out.

 

3 games total of forummafia. (2 town games on here - 1 scum loss on 2+2, but that game was a 60 ppl game and i didn't rly play because i lost all interested 2 minutes into it tbh)

triple digits of videomafia (started with that early december last year)

 

Okay back up. You need to stop putting words in MY mouth as well. When did I demand anyone for blind trust? Seriously? You are the one being presumptuous to me, from saying 'I'M DISAPPOINTED IN YOU FOR NOT BEING A LEGEND' And then that. I'm actually quite angry right now.

Also, rofl, fontisian posts 3 posts with 1 liner arguments and you like her despite her giving very little reason for votes.

Okay, seriously please answer this question: Do you find vote without reasons not scummy at all? Is it actually town behaviour to you? From me being scummy for questioning Citrus' one line vote. Is that what is +EV to you?

I agree with your last point regarding Citrus.

 

Reasons I should get lump:

1. I don't metagame. I don't even know what "meta" means.

2. My timezone means I'm unlikely to change my vote at the last minute, meaning I will be a predictable vote you can plan around.

3.. I'm a plain-speaking salt-of-the-earth Trump-Farage figure who rejects cliquey lingo like "push" and "claim".

4. I'm gonna go ahead and hardclaim that I have a relatively minor role, meaning giving me lump isn't putting too many eggs in one basket.

5. I don't spam loads of armchair psychology analysis nonsense.

6. I'm totally not an egocentric narcissist who just wants the extra vote because it makes you more important.

7. I have an acute sense of irony.

#Taure2016

Lump: Definitely Not Taure

Incidentally, I think I should just go by "Taure" for this game. "Definitely Not" could introduce confusing double negatives.

 

I did want to gauge your reaction a bit, having heard of you and all, so I said what I said in order to get a reaction from you. I'm still not quite sure what to make of it, either frustrated town, or pushy scum, is how I'm feeling about it right now.

When dealing with unknown factors I tend to make a statement and address potential situations with them early - the things I've heard of you only serve to make me believe you're a formidable player. Are you not?

My initial jibe that you were supposed to be easier to read was just that, a jibe. The things I've heard of you only serve to bridge the gap between me being a new player here, and other experienced players having played with you before. I've been told and shown your skill, and I operated off of that knowledge of you as a formidable player when making my first read.

So no, I was not going "I'M DISAPPOINTED IN YOU FOR NOT BEING A LEGEND". I was, in fact, precisely seeking where you would run with that assumption. And I'm not sure if I like the way you've focused on that one small statement towards the beginning of my original post.

Can't blame me for sizing up the competition. Frankly, if you were scum, would you blame me for doubting you early?

As far as Citrus goes, RVS is RVS. Sesc hadn't voted yet, the reason for the RVS vote. Citrus already explained that. I don't find anything inherently scummy about an RVS vote, no, particularly not one with a later, reasonable explanation followed by a shit ton of towny posts.

---------- Post automerged at 03:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 AM ----------

Mmm, yeah, no thanks.

I don't have a desire in lumping somebody who needs to explain all these points as to why they'd be a good lump candidate. This isn't a real political election. Lump should be given to someone who's pretty towny throughout the course of the phase.

---------- Post automerged at 03:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 AM ----------

Also, hey Irene, do you think I'm town?

 

I questioned it at the start before his towny posts. Though. I questioned it when he had only a few posts. The explanation and towny posts came later. So forgive me if I tend to question all votes without backup statements, because it doesn't mean I think they are scum, I just need a reason. That is all.
Definitely Not Taure: If you want lump please input your view on Newcomb/Sesc thing.

 

Cobalt: I'll have to breathe in deeply when I say this but...

Fuck it.

I think you're town. Not because I'm trying to buddy you or anything (in fact, you pissed me off because fontisian did the same thing you did to me in my last game so I associated that with negative memories.)

But because amidst all these when you were called out for your mistakes you stuck to your guns, reacted well to my pressure against you, and didn't back paddle. On top of that, you ignored any signs of coming off as scummy and continuously went for what was personally right to you.

I think it's town behaviour. I'm unhappy that you read me wrongly but I won't vote to lynch you because I don't think you're scum.

Aka: You passed the test. You're town in my books until you do something incredibly scummy (If so, I would revoke that)

But outside of game: Please stop doing the jibes about me being legendary, I don't appreciate it at all, and I do get personally offended (not just in-game). That goes for everyone else. Just a heads up.

 

Yeah I just make walls of text without actually reading, you're right Sesc.

I hope you can envision how hard my eyeballs are rolling right now.

It was an honest mistake. I did focus mainly on Irene's post, and I came back to the Citrus thing when SHE spoke on it, not when Citrus voted. I went back to look at his post and messed up the order in my head, is all.

Why are you focusing so hard on trying to debunk me unless I'm right?

 

Honest opinion: I think at this stage it's pretty much impossible to tell and any "read" is pure speculation that might as well be a random dice roll. Pretty much all the analysis on the previous 4 pages is hot air - you can justify pretty much any opinion with anything at this point.

Newcomb's eagerness can be used to justify him being witches (he wants it so badly because he's trying to kill us) or town (he wants it so badly because he wants to protect us). There's no way to determine it either way until we start seeing how people vote and die-- a pattern of behaviour.

Similarly, your (Irene) eagerness to jump on Newcomb immediately can be interpreted as a witch trying to prevent town getting lump, or a zealous town trying to avoid the disaster of a witch having two votes.

Who knows? I certainly don't, and I'm suspicious of anyone who claims to have the kind of magical powers that would be necessary to divine people's allegiance at this stage.

I'm going to be honest, because I'm a plain-speaking salt-of-the-earth Trump-Farage figure. We need to lynch someone, else the witches get a free day. Not lynching someone on the first day is like restarting the game with one less town player. But, since we don't have any immigrants to scapegoat, who we lynch is pretty much random.

To that end, I assigned all players numbers and rolled a die.

Vote: Citrus

 

Fair enough.

I never meant personal offense, of course. I apologize.

This does nothing to diminish my scum lean on you, of course. Though given new information, it's more of a lean than a read.

Sesc on the other hand, that's a scum read.

Some smaller things that are still bothering me - I still don't see what in Newcomb's plan is inherently scummy to the point which you made it out to be. I see the flaws in it, as I had replied to it earlier in my first post and said I would most definitely not be Lumping him, but I do not at all believe that original post, nor the posts following it as being scummy.

I don't quite understand why you keep insisting they are.

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Lol, bish whet?

You equate every single ounce of actual gameplay to pure, baseless speculation and then make a random vote which results on a mutual townread from both sides of the argument?

Because that makes sense.

 

That would be the meaning of "random".

 

I don't see why you would make a random vote though?

RVS is RVS, but you literally planned on making a random vote after reducing every single aspect of actual gameplay so far to nothing.

What are you trying to hide?

And why would you vote Citrus regardless of whether or not you rolled a damn dice?

 

Intentionally ignoring it, yes.

I'm saying my post was a garcia and I don't care, because Sesc is a witch.

It's not. Prove me wrong.

I like you too.

 

It's really late and I'm SO TIRED but I love this game and I love these players so here I am.

Irene
Cobalt
Citrus
fontisian
Taure
Jan

are my townreads in order. Irene is top town because if she's a Witch, she'll just Soup us all N1 and we'll have to roll a new game.

Uh. I'm actually following Irene's case against Newcomb, but I'm having that issue where I don't think Newcomb is actually scum. Very similar to her case on Rubicon that I didn't believe until the moment he flipped because it just seemed so...out there. I'll look through the posts again in the morning, this is just my intial impression.

Sorry for putting you on a pedestal Irene, I just really enjoyed the way you dismantled scumteams in the past. That said, Cobalt immediately pouncing on you looks super town for him because of the games/posts I showed him highlighting your skill.

Citrus' trap thing towards Irene/Sesc feels a lot like the same Citrus who called out fontisian on her scumslip. Eh. It's hard to explain. I lean town on him.

fontisian's early posts were short because she was using my phone so I don't really care that much about her not really explaining herself then. But. I like the Sesc push.

Taure did a Thing that I sooort of like, and. He's a weak townread because of it. Yeah.

And then Jan is just a vanity townread because I want to play with him.

I'm keeping my vote on Sesc. Kalas is also probably a Witch, so that's cool.

 

It's not nothing. It does two things.

Firstly, it builds up a character. Mafia is all about getting other people on your side. You do that through rhetoric, because mafia is an information-poor game. The way the vote swings is based on rhetorical skill more than any kind of role-reading ability.

Irene is creating a character with the qualities of diligence, thoroughness, and (apparently) justified opinions. She's also selling the idea that she has special role-reading talent, for those who believe that such a thing is possible. These all add up to making her someone that you think you should vote with. But of course it's all rhetoric - there's no real logic to anything, because on the first day you have literally no information. It's not just information-poor, it's zero-information. I bet if Irene wanted to, she could equally easily write a long post supporting Newcomb, with reasons that sound equally well-justified.

Similarly, I'm creating a character who doesn't have the patience for the fictions mafia players like to tell themselves about their special mind reading skills.

Secondly, the things people say on day one can become useful on later days, when some information begins to emerge.

 

Also, thinking on it, I don't think I'd be a good Lump candidate because Hannibal mafia. Yeah.

Lump Citrus

ilu Citrus, make me proud

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Also also, Cobalt, my meta is considerably different here, so. Have fun trying to read me.

 

Irene further made the same mistake after I made it - why are you focusing on me and not asking her the same question?

I already explained myself. Continuing to prod me will not yield a different result.

---------- Post automerged at 03:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 AM ----------

Do me a solid: How do you see my "character" so far?

---------- Post automerged at 03:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 AM ----------

I liked your recent few posts right until this.

There's nothing towny about taunting someone's ability or lack thereof to read you.

 

Clown would go off, Oracle would go off. So, right away Clown is protected. Oracle goes off, that tells the Oracle if the D1 lynch was a hit or a miss. Priest checks Lump, and if we all know Priest is going to check Lump, then Lump is soft townfirmed when Priest doesn't out. (The only way this fails is if scum snipe the Priest N1, which is why it's a soft townfirm and not conftown.) If we give Lump to one of the less strong/veteran but still towny players , then we make a (potentially) ?? player a self-resolving problem, and we also make the NK tougher. It also makes the Lump election something to really pay attention to, like something you can go back and analyze, since it's not just "extra attention," it's a Priest check.

If you look at the game I linked, post #157 is where I got most of that. The setup is the same (except for witch powers being paths but they're the same actual powers, so it's a wash, I think?), and it looked like a really good strategy to apply to this game, since it worked in that game, which is why I wanted to run it by everyone up front. Not say "absolutely do this!" But, I want to know if it would work. The no Angel protect N1 is something I didn't consider. Are you guys sure about that? I mean, unless we No Lynch, there is a dead player on N1, yeah?

A few thoughts as I glance over the thread again:

Jan's prod of Irene is pretty much in-line with the way town!Jan poked and investigated early in the games I've been in with him. However, he does go from (after I propose my plan):

To:

The first one to me, the second to Irene. In the space of like, two posts? He's not... quite... flat-out changing his mind, because the second one is more about my campaign for Lump - that's what he was referring to with my reasoning being off, I believe - but it still pings me. Like, he's trying to subtly agree with both of us? I'm going light town on Jan at the moment, though, because I think the general "inquisitive Jan" vibe I get is stronger than one scummy ping.

Sesc: This comment has generated some back-and-forth. I'm not sure I'm buying in to scum!Irene/scum!Sesc - it seems a bit, eh, on the nose, I think? Obvious? Like, Cobalt posted this:

I'm... not really feeling that. I'm trying to work through your logic here, and you're saying, what, Sesc is avoiding distancing and buddying, in the same post? Yeah. I'm missing exactly what you're accusing him of.

On the other hand, I did agree with fonti's prod of Sesc's comment here. I'm still having trouble getting past the "softing" thing from Irene, and that seems to be what fonti latched on to as well - picking up on similar key points is not the end all and be all, but it's a good sign.

Irene I've gone over in some detail. Leaning scum, but getting the MathBlade/Titus vibes where I'm banging my head against the wall.

Riley/Waco/Von/Kalas: Basically nada. Taure/Nae, actually nada.

Cobalt: His push against Irene is pretty much in-line with what I was thinking as well. He really went for it, so hard that it felt less investigative and more attack-y. I'm not sure I understand the "flip-flopping" accusation here. You did say you'd go into more detail at some point, so, do that.

Citrus: His whole "out of order post" thing reminds me of that "random question to His Fluff" thing in Hannibal Mafia. Both of them seemed kinda "huh?" to me. He's engaging into the middle of this Irene/me thing, and I'm wondering if scum!Citrus would do that? If Irene's town, then he'd proooobably just let town-on-town violence commence? If Irene's scum, he's... huh. I think what I like about what Citrus is doing here is that he's unspooling this mechanics tangle. Part of my opening "what do you think of this plan" thing was to determine if, indeed, it's a good plan. He's working through it - like this post.

Vote: Irene

Strongest scumspect at the moment. Can't get past calling me out for softing, then backing it up with "that's how I play." Wanted to work through the rest of the thread, but I'm exhausted. I refreshed just now and there's like 15 new posts, including Actual Content! By Von and Taure. But. Can't do it right now. Catch up with you folks tomorrow.