What... Most of the stuff I dislike about this story is stuff that I dislike because it IS bad. Like, the massive fit the twins throw over nothing, the extreme polarization of every character, like him getting kicked out of Gryffindor tower... shit like that is just bad plotting and storytelling.

 

That's not a failure. Fanfiction and fiction in general is almost entirely subjective in its appeal and its perceived quality. As such, it is nigh impossible to separate an objective score for a fic from one's own personal dislikes.

Trying to judge a fanfic by purely objective standards is the height of lunacy.

In fact, I would argue that trying to provide an objective score is actually counterproductive. When fiction is written for the purposes of entertainment and there are things used which lessen the entertainment value of an individual reader (out of character characterization, immaturity, etc.) then its vastly more important that a review reflect that.

 

"I'm not racist. I have black friends!"

 

I disagree.

I have a special interest in this subjective-versus-objective stance, as I hold that Deathly Hallows is *provably* a flawed, broken, terrible disaster of a novel. I agree that it's rare to be able to 'prove', by objective measure, the literary merit of a work. Most times any chain of reasoning ends up with at least one link which is subjectively measured ... or can be subjectively waved away.

I think Half-Blood Prince is a bad book. Most of it is filler. Half the book is teenage romantic nonsense mired in jealousy and infantile games which is horrible to read. The trips down pensieve lane are plain boring.

But I've had HP fans counter the above. They loved the teenage 'romance'. They find the backstory on Riddle 'fascinating'. And so forth. I fail on any attempt to flat-out state that HBP is objectively a bad book.

Deathly Hallows, on the other hand, is provably, objectively bad. Lazy writing, plot holes, flaws, none of which can be discarded depending on one's own personal/subjective feelings.

Anyway, sorry for the digression, but I've come across folk before who have tried to say "oh, you just can't judge books objectively, because I say so, it's too hard, so voila, you can't say that DH is a bad book, I win". Sorry, no.

Apoc may be right in saying that fiction is '*almost* entirely subjective in its appeal', but that still shouldn't stop us from analysing books on their objective literary merit. It's *not* 'the height of lunacy' to do so. If you can identify a 'subjective link' in a chain of reasoning then you can establish same and then counter the subjective assessment with your own 'feelings'/'opinions'. But if you can't then you've got to engage on objective grounds.

I agree with LinguaManiac. Nemrut's assessment is shown to be largely subjective. Nemrut doesn't like various things in the story, but hasn't shown us why we, everyone, should feel the same way ... or why the weaknesses he perceives are objective measurements that will pertain regardless of one's personal/subjective assessment.

I personally - subjectively - found his anti-Harry points to be minor in comparison with our hero's overall heroism. His 'goodness', everything I like a hero to be. He fights the good fight; his 'saving people thing' is automatic. He steps up to the plate again and again. It's great stuff that underpins a great HP story.

(Plus I don't concur with Nemrut on his minor gripes in any case. )

But LinguaManiac itemised multiple reasons why the twins act that way, each serial 'trigger' pushing them more and more into upping the ante and going after Harry with renewed vigour. They start out with simple party-game pranks but, after each defeat, things escalate, again and again. Totally believable, and the story clearly shows this progression.

Again, this is explained perfectly well. All of the kids in Harry's year refused to sign the document banning Harry. He moots the theory that the remainder were bullied into it by Angela, with the twins as her 'enforcers'. No polarisation there ... or, if so, we're given the reasons for that polarisation, it's explained. So it's definitely not 'shit ... that is just bad plotting'.

From what Harry says and thinks it's clear that he's no misogynist. He *values* his friendship with Hermione. We're privy to his inner thoughts, where he thinks about her , Aimee and Fleur. He's honest with himself about Fleur's abilities.

The 'black friends' thing doesn't work when we can see what Harry thinks, as well as what he says and what he does. He shows he's no misogynist in all three cases.

 

How is every character extremely polarized? Look at Alicia and Angelina. When they come stalking Katie's apology to HJ, his interior monologue notices that Alicia isn't as into the hate as Angelina (who had had her heart set on being Triwizard Champion and whom we've already seen has had a more excitable temper than the others). Then, despite being angry, Angelina tries to do the right thing by saying that HJ is reinstated on the Quidditch team. That's nuance, especially for a pair of tertiary characters.

As for the twins "throw over," it's not over nothing. As I said, they start out a little peeved that he's playing with their sister. Then when he successfully dodges their chance to retaliated, they simmer. They get hot again when he seems to be playing with their friend, Katie, and they launch the mostly harmless picnic blanket prank. He gets out of that successfully too, and doesn't react to their attempt to humiliate them with the pictures. That stews them off more, and it just spirals out of control from there, reaching a head first when HJ detonates their dung bomb supply and second when HJ catches them spying. Where, exactly, is this over 'nothing'?

As to the exiling HJ (or whatever it was) from Gryffindor. Yeah, that's a little weird, mostly because we didn't know students could exile other students from the house. In fact, it seems to go against the idea of a house being like 'a family.' So while I do think that doesn't mesh perfectly well with canon, it's not like much of what happens meshes with canon (I bring up this Krum vs. canon Krum as the paragon example). So the fact that it's new doesn't seem to be a problem. In fact, it could be seen to be more canon compliant: a way for a house to punish one of its own members publicly, which can be done in a family too. I wish it were foreshadowed better so one didn't have to assimilate both that students could be exiled and that HJ was being exiled. And if your problem is only that it's improperly presented, I agree with you.

That seems a minor issue, though, when compared to how others talk about the bad in this fic.

---------- Post automerged at 11:53 ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 ----------

If that's your opinion, then I'm afraid to say we're simply at a philosophical impasse. Although it's worrying to me that you're unable to separate your aesthetic preferences from your technical expertise and, forgive me for saying but you did just call me a lunatic so I don't feel too bad, suggests that you don't have much of either.

I make furniture. I can tell whether a table is well made no matter whether I like the way it looks. The exact same must be said about fiction or there's no conversation to be had.

---------- Post automerged at 11:57 ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 ----------

Exactly right! If I have black friends, I'm obviously not a racist. I can't be pretty much by definition. Now, if I say I have black friend, you're liable to not believe me if I have spouted racism. HJ in this fic, though, obviously likes women, and he likes them for their strength and ability, not just for their curves. I don't know what your definition of misogyny is, but liking women for their personality, strength, character, and ability doesn't fit with mine.

---------- Post automerged at 12:04 ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 ----------

Yes! Exactly right, and thank you as well. I was starting to feel as if didn't express myself at all well, but you got what I was saying perfectly. And this is exactly right about objectivity vs. subjectivity.

 

You had me until this.

 

I don't see how Harry feelings about the women in the story automatically means he's not a misogynist. It has to with his actions. For example, his blatant disrespect for Fleur when he continues to spy on her shows a disregard for her feelings and privacy. That he feels warmly about her doesn't change that.

 

I suppose I'm quite the misogynist, then. I'll admit to taking any opportunity I could find to peep on hot girls when I was a teenager.

 

Your impression about the last 2 books is close to mine. After reading HBP/DH I actually considered that she employed ghost writer(s) after OOTP. The style changed drastically, the content felt underdeveloped and the connection between books didn't work.
The books made so much money and then the films made even more and which were on a strict time table because of the actor age. The economical pressure must have been extreme. In that timeframe she got 2 babies(2003,2005). It makes only sense to employ external help to make deadlines.

 

That's fine. I'm glad I had you as far as that. If I might ask, though, what's the nature of your disagreement?

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Friend_argument

 

Does that apply in this case? Harry isn't the one arguing against the perceived misogyny by saying he's friends with girls.

 

You don't have to be arguing about yourself.

 

Ehh, I feel like that typically refers to when it's used to defend against being called racist after saying something racist. Here we can see his thoughts and he clearly values them as friends, so I don't think it applies.

 

The point is that you can still be prejudiced against a group while making exceptions for members of that group you know personally.

 

I feel like I've read this argument in this thread before ... maybe time to lock the thread?

 

What is with this recent obsession with locking threads. You lock threads when there is nothing of merit left to discuss, whether that be from derailing or otherwise. Half a dozen posts about the characterization of Harry are not going to ruin the thread, but incessant mini-modding just might.

So no.