Makes negative sense to me (isn't it ideal to try to get confirmed towns to stay alive as long as possible, via not immediately outting??) but all of {fonti/Rubi/Kai/Prophy/etc} can't be scum so I'll just shut up unless someone else thinks it's scummy of you to have done so.

 

I'm hesitant to say more because <scum coaching redacted>, but having confirmed town helps a lot with PoE, and all claiming later does is let scum <redacted> yeah this is a bad idea.

Whatever it makes sense to me. And besides I wasn't like "OTHER MASON CLAIM NOW." I just thought it was a good idea.

---------- Post automerged at 11:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------

Also we don't actually have Masons so ...

 

Right. The point of the question was trying to understand you and your motivations better, but it's kind of an awk subject so etc. Will try to lrn2readu.

 

This is mostly where I'm at right now, except throw LochNess into my townreads. I can buy that fonti is radically paranoid of me, but I'm almost expecting her to have this game close to lockdown right now a la American Gods.

Analyze my behavior, then, while treating the self vote as null. I'd argue that the body of work I put into the thread Yesterday should be enough to clear me; not some self vote I made.

Why do you think that I wouldn't self vote as town? Right now, I'm a distraction, ready to be mislynched some time along the road. Removing me Day 1 when there's a bunch of people talking about me may not be as good as a scum lynch, but would have allowed you guys to narrow onto Kai/Jan/??? rather than fixate on me.

You've stayed away from my wagon Day 1 and mostly contributed fluff posts, with some questions that kinda didn't go anywhere. Is there any reason for me to think you're town?

--

I tried to read Jan's post and my eyes kind of glazed over, but Jan - why are so many of your conclusions regarding Newcomb and fontisian "not scum with Proph"? These types of unaligned pair things are useful but I would never list them as a conclusion, especially when you think I'm town.

Like.. why are you so focused on hunting PAIRS instead of hunting INDIVIDUALS? It feels like you're talking about people in relation to each other, but it's useless without confirmed alignments of another person.

Where did you find me possible town with my later posting? The last thing you said about my posts was this:

What are your thoughts on Jan/KaiDASH, as well?

 

I will get to the rest tomorrow, but I remember thinking/writing "could you not have sounded at all town before 4am?" in response to that stuff.

I don't know what to do with your self-vote because again, literally the only time I've seen someone do that is lone scum in 5p, because that's what they would've done as town and he was hoping to get cleared by doing it. So I've been stewing for a day and a half on fonti yelling that you would never as town do that, and you still not dying. But when she said that, I was imagining that she had literally had a previous discussion/previous experience with you about that so I'm kinda waiting on her.

 

Here's some Jan stuff. I'm trying to not confbias my way into just reading him mafia, so expect this to be a little "overly objective or whatever". Good news is he only has 20 posts so it shouldn't be unbearable.

At least Jan is consistent with this "Player X hasn't done something they couldn't do as scum." I just.... don't really agree with that attitude? Like seriously, who is a bad enough mafia player that they have something they'll literally never do as scum?

Heh. Probably means nothing, but... Snowvon probably is C-3PO since Neighbor with R2-D2 aaaaaaaand I just realized Citrus is rabidly anti flavorgaming so this is useless.

Small note to see if he follows up re: Storm's experience.

Hm, I like the Delphine read. That reads pretty genuine / towny thought process.

Points B and C, meh. Jokey Jan just = Jan. Null.

Hm, some pros and cons here.

I like the Storm follow-up - like, if he's faking that he doesn't already know Storm is town, he's at least keeping a consistency of fake town mindset, which is not easy.

Ditto for Delphine. In the previous post he scumread Delphine for trying to move out of RVS and look good - scumreading her for being self-conscious. Then he rescinds the read for a lack of self-consciousness. That's a pretty good look - it shows he's thinking about the game and approaching it from a consistent mindset.

I'm not crazy about the me/fonti stuff. I read it as "scum!Jan frustrated by two town 'unjustly' townreading each other." And... I still kinda feel that way? But I think I might see Jan's point a little. I mean I never did explain my strong fonti townread - it basically had to do with how I thought she'd go about pocketing me as mafia, and that was not it. But like.... it's possible I'm wrong? Maybe it's arrogant of me to just assume I figured out how fonti would treat me as mafia?

It's at least not a ding against Jan this time through, I think.

Hmm okay, change of plans. I'm just going to freeform for a second.

Okay so what if fonti is mafia?

Scum!fonti kind of implies town!Jan and town!Proph. Because fonti/Proph just makes zero sense with how EoD went down. Zero. I sooooort of buy fonti hellbussing Proph from the start and then trying to swing it around, opportunistically using my Jan scumread, but then the swing BACK to Proph? Yeah just, absolutely not.

And if Jan is mafia and Proph is town, then again, EoD makes zero sense in scum!fonti worlds. Unless it was an insane gambit where she's try it knowing there weren't enough people to get it done, and move back to Proph, but like.... daaaaaaaaamn that's plying with fire and they had Proph mislynch IN THE BAG so WHY??? NO way.

I think the only way it kinda makes sense is if Jan and Proph are both town, and fonti didn't actually care who got lynched, and did it as a zero-risk play to look towny. Fuck me, and some of her EoD stuff felt pretty fake and reminded me of WH5 too.

But... but... if Jan/Proph are both town and fonti's mafia, then who the fuck are her partners?

Okay wait could it be... fonti/Proph/Jan? LOL no. Because... I mean because the world isn't insane? For real though; because no way does fonti try to swing it Jan there. Uh. I mean, we did no lynch. General confusion. Votes moving around.

fonti/Proph/Jan

Yeah that feels like a joke team or something. I just want to immediately dismiss it. But... maybe?

Why wouldn't Proph hardcore distance from fonti though? Like. He didn't really push back. It kinda looks like they could be aligned.

Hm Proph kinda pulled a similar thing in the MTGS Invitational.

I think this is just too convoluted, though. I mean it's not organic or freeform at all. It would have had to have been planned, like, from the start. At least the fonti/Proph stuff, and ergh, like the things fonti was reading Proph bad for, were kind of organically bad on Proph's part, if that makes sense?

Ah fuck me, I hate this world. Someone just tell me I'm being dumb and fonti/Proph/Jan is 100% impossible.

So yeah okay, discarding that, if fonti's mafia, then who is she with? dLGN? Delphine? KaiDASH?

Man fonti/dLGN/KaiDASH would just be absurdly sick and just openly hard aligning/sheeping.

This is dumb. Everything is dumb. dLGN can't be with fonti because that stuff analyzing the me/fonti interaction was just so goddamn genuine. Like who comes up with that shit as mafia?

So fonti is not scum with dLGN, Jan, or Proph. And Snowvon's town. So it would have to be like, Koalas, LochNess, Rubicon, KaiDASH, somewhere in there.

Maybe there's something to fonti/Rubicon? Might be a negative space thing.

Sanity check:

Reasons to read fonti town:

1) Mind-meld over why Proph was scummy.

2) Her read on me developed in a way I think made sense. I absolutely believe scum!fonti would try to pocket me, because it's a hole in my game, but I actually think she'd be either more or less subtle about it. If that's what's happening, she Goldilocks'd it perfectly.

Like seriously that is not how scum!fonti talks about me I think. I think? I think. I... think. It's slightly paranoid but also kinda like "deal with it later" and flippant in a good way and like.... bleh.

3) She scumread Snowvon (weak meta thing subject to wine, but still)

...

Okay back to Jan

I hate this from Jan. HATE IT. It's so... slimy, like he's hanging back and rubbing his hands together and laughing with an evil laugh.

Who says something like "I want to read him scummy for it because X"???

Oh shit I forgot about this:

Rubicon just flat calls Jan scum after that post.

Like... fuck that's a bold look from w/w. I mean talk about no credit for bussing.

Jan/Rubicon? Really after that? Rubicion just flat calls his buddy scum and points to a post? Mrgle.

___

Yeah I need to go to bed. The spools of yarn are all tangled.

Uh.

Who wants to go on an adventure with me and run up fonti?

I'm not saying it's a good idea.

I'm just saying it will be an adventure.

(But seriously, if everyone could direct their attention to fonti's ISO and kind of weigh in on that aspect of the game because I feel it's a bit make or break)

 

Checking in I am around but at work. Gonna read through and then post in about three hours once I am off

 

Hi. This is the part where you explain:

1. The original townread on fonti.
2. How it has vanished or why you now doubt it enough to suggest starting a wagon on her.
3. What stuck out to you about her ISO.

 

I find it odd, dLGN, that your reaction to that isn't to weigh in on Jan or re-evaluate the game at all, it's just to pick at the fonti thing.

Original townread: I thought scum!fonti would almost certainly try to pocket me. I thought she would do it in one of two ways: 1) Hard townread off the bat, or sparring and poking and fighting and then mid D1 "have an epiphany" and turn around on me. She didn't do either of those things, instead charting a middle course with fairly low engagement. Like so:

Doubt: It's now D2 after a no-lynch which fonti was instrumental in causing. Looking back, my townread on her solidifying had a fair amount to do with "wanting to be right" about my original read. And really, why am I arrogant enough to assume I just know how scum!fonti would interact with me?

What stuck out in the ISO:

WH5: (fonti was mafia)

Hm, that's actually not as compelling as I thought it would be. Without actually looking back over WH5, I thought some of fonti's EoD stuff (where there was another panic moment) seemed kind of fake and blustery, but it's actually kind of different. Or it was in WH5 where she was calmer, and trying to appear objective. Like:

Whereas in this game she was absolutely just trying to drive it and push her agenda. There was no doubt on the switch to Jan or move back to Proph, no "hmm, is this right"? kind of tone. So, it's different.

Hm.

I think my overall thing with fonti is I don't want my townread of her to just become the standard party line because I'm repeating it. Contagious townreads that no one questions are how town loses games.

Also, if fonti actually is town, then it's best to get the paranoia out of our systems now in case mafia try the "leave fonti alive to be mislynched on D4 because she's still alive" thing.

Basically I am saying "hey everyone you know how fonti's come under zero pressure this entire game maybe that's not such an awesome idea and you should all go do your homework and read her ISO."

 

Re: Jan, sorry this is rambley but I don't have time to fix it.

I am very very bad at reading Jan IME! I have been trying to ask him questions to better understand his push back on some people I've lighter townreads on (which he has yet to address), and I think tried to ask at least five other people about how and why they're reading him. I have gotten the sense that regardless of alignment IRL is probably not that great for him rn and that he is not really enjoying the game, and so I am really trying to read/understand his posts and I just get...lost, kind of. Like there's a disconnect in my brain or something about how his arguments should get accomodated into my overall understanding of this game. Normally when I'm trying to read someone I at least have a sense of whether I agree with the arguments they're making, and with him I just...kind of stare blankly at his posts and wish I was smarter?? He could be scum? fonti's reasoning against him prompting the flashwagon was pretty lazy/bad IMO unless there's context I'm missing.

I guess let me go through his posts, um. I vaguely liked him early. I kinda liked #63 ("You do realize that half of his gifs actually transport information, right? / The other half are open lolcatting, which is fun.") in light of his earlier thoughts on Nc. In #177 he is a lot more, idk, thoughtful than he was as scum. I like #217 for the ("I might actually write an essay about that at a later point, since noone actually understands what i am trying to say (or so it seems).") because having a read in that particular way that you can't really articulate indicates townie mindset, to me? His specific later reads {defending von; suspicion surrounding Newcomb/fonti} feel not alignment indicative, though I think if he was scum he'd be embellishing issues with Nc (unless they were together...? which I suppose is entirely possible) but I'm still trying to figure out if he is - hopefully him actually answering my previous questions will help idk. I'm not sure I personally buy that Newcomb is still in his scumrange which is why I'm tryin to dig into that. It surprises me that he didn't continue to specifically try to talk dLGN out of his fonticomb townreads or even address that - feels like an important reach-out as town? I don't think the word choice argument Nc just made is alignment indicative. fonti mostly ignoring him is making it harder for me to evaluate/accomodate his read on her.

---------- Post automerged at 12:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 PM ----------

"a lot more, idk, thoughtful than he was as scum."
^ I rephrased this part like 5 times to try to not have a huge long clause about American Gods in it and it came out like that, lmao

 

Wouldn't they not be confirmed if they haven't outed ? And outing would at least knock off one mafia then.


-------

So I am on my phone, gonna start going through posts but will just do multiple short posts as I go.

 

vote: Koalas

So Newcomb is town because in several recent posts (notably #626) he's exploring his own ideas in a detailed way that I don't think he would fake as mafia. It reads as him trying to solve the game and not simply going with the crowd.

Snowvon is town for a multitude of reasons, including the fact that the moderator was under the impression he and Storm were masons.

I think this post points to fontisian being town:

Because this is not merely an olive branch, it's a trap. By offering the chance of another lynch, she's baiting him into revealing whether he's aligned with Jan (who she was also suspicious of at the time).

It's a small bit of detail that I think might not have occurred to her as mafia.

It's certainly a lazy way to approach scumhunting.

i.e. has Player X done something they couldn't do as scum, versus has Player X done something they wouldn't do as scum.

I think scum are within {Jan, Prophylaxis, Koalas, KaiDASH, DLGN}.

---------- Post automerged at 01:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 PM ----------

Yeah. I was trying to make sure we didn't no-lynch, and I missed the last-second switch back to Proph.

 

Here's the deal: I'm going to visit family for the next two weeks, and I'll be restricted to phone posting. Detailed analysis is going to be difficult. So, I'm going to solve this as much as I can toDay.

Fontisian
Snowvon
dLGN
Delphine
Newcomb
LochNess
Koalas
Rubicon
KaiDASH
Jan
Prophylaxis

Von genuinely thought that he was a mason and, regardless, I can't see any team involving him seeing a neighbor enough of a threat to shoot n1.

Delphine posted the chart early on despite her fear of being scumread for it and showed evidence of using it before she posted it. She's town.

dLGN's thought processes have consistently mirrored my own and I believe his conviction at the end of Day. The only note of concern is that he could be specifically molding himself to me in order to pocket me, but I think there were enough signs of his intentions before I made my various analyses that it wasn't faked.

I /think/ Newcomb's current doubt on me because he doesn't want anything to become orthodoxy is town for him, especially when as scum he'd probably wouldn't want to jeopardize pocketing me. Post 626 also has that paranoid of everything feel from his early town games.

Lochness is iffy, because I was getting vague pr vibes from her Yesterday, but I'm going to stick with the thought that her opposition to the main thought process makes her town.

Rubicon was useless, and knows that I liked to lynch useless things. He gets some credit for posting basically the same circle as I started writing this, showing a similar thought process, countered by the fact that I think Kalas is the towniest of the potential scum.

Kai has been coasting a bit, but I liked his early pressure of Rubicon. He's late to the Proph party, and a likely partner if Proph flips scum.

Jan is just tonally blah. I don't feel conviction, I don't agree with enough of what he's saying to townread him, and he's trying to stop me and Newcomb from townreading each, when we're both probably town. But I feel kind of bad about the flashwagon, as I expected him to at least be around to pressure and get a more solid read.

Proph earlier content showed a consistent mindset of misinterpretation and shortcuts and his initial reaction to his wagon lacked both fire and solid analysis. Some of his later stuff was better, but still within his range. I can maybe see a world where he would decide to self vote, but it goes against everything I've ever seen him do and doesn't jive with what he knows of the numbers. I also think he'd put more value on his ability to stay around and provide analysis as town, since it tends to be good, to counter whatever distraction him being alive would cause. He is also the biggest potential threat, as without me pushing him, I can just see him coasting off the towncred from a "self-hammer" to the win and fuck that.

Vote Prophylaxis

 

I just started looking through d1 EoD again to answer the open questions. Interesting enough outside of delphine asking me a bit earlier (her last post of the day) and fontis bad accusation, there is not a single question asked to me.

I mean i overslept it anyway, but people starting a flashwagon and not asking questions about it .. is kinda .. you know : bad play ( i assume not all 5-6 of you are scum).

Anyways will try to answer some of it now. Also yes delphine you are right, i am in kind of a bad spot, but don't let that influence your opinion. i mean if you can't read me because of that, then i can't change it, but don't pitty me because i am in a bad mood.
If you think i am scum, or think that my play as it is is no/bad use for town, better voice it. I'd rather be todays misslynch then the fatal misslynch on a later day when it is hit or miss (misslynching me today means you an learn and can read into the people pushing the lynch). Never the less i will try to carry my weight, and try to do some soft reset myself, more about that later.

Back to the drawing board, actual opinions coming soon to a forum post near you.

---------- Post automerged at 23:41 ---------- Previous post was at 22:43 ----------

dLGN reads good and honest there. I will say there is the possibility of him being with either fonti or newcomb, which would make it easy to fake (or him just being smart enough to read the situation in a similar manner).
That situation alone is slightly towny for him for the most part. Not enough to clear him from anything, but a good read to add to others (like his initial read on you/delphine)

You can check out both the last Tinyhunt and the last Witchhunt in this forum, Newcomb rolled scum in both of them.

I reread both of them just now (or rather read his posts) and have to admit that this game does not read similar.
I need to read his towngames to see if that actually is a towntell for him or just part of him changing his playstyle, will do that next.

Newcomb & Tea - Love in a Tunnel a story (that goes on) for [the] ages
The answer to your question about newcombs recent game and one of the reasons why he is trying a new approach.
I subbed into teas slot on d3 and scum gave up at the end of that day. Interesting to join in a slot that is in the lovetunnel with newcomb, i learned a lot that night.

The other one would be cat-hunt .. but he was only observer in that one. He still missed out on the scumteam, because there was no way mal was town with that bad tunnel d2. (Same problem i had that game). He talked about cathunt earlier in this game and mentioned his conversation with a mod about the reveal.


Enough of Newcombs past .. if i continue down this dark road then I have to mention how he saved my sorry ass in the first game we played together, and noone wants to hear that story


Anyways, I will look into Hannibalmafia to see if Newcomb did that play by play talk there. If so we might actually have a solid towntell, if not .. well it means either nothing or whatever we want it to be.

 

Well you keep saying you don't think anyone ITT has that good of a reason to townread Newcomb but I don't know why you've not more directly addressed dLGN hard townreading them for that exchange? Do you have anything more to say on the validity of it as opposed to how it makes you read dLGN?

 

Sigh. I quoted a few newcomb posts and was trying to get at something that feels very real in my mind but is hard to pinpoint from his posts where exactly those issues stem from. So maybe they are just my own issues. I'll get back to him via thoughts on Jan.

I'm trying my best to reevaluate on Jan. I echo many of Delphine's sentiments from her Jan post earlier. I'm going to respond to that post and do an update on my Delphine read after this.

Specifically, I didn't quite get the reaction I expected out of Jan after than EOD fiasco. I've fucked up with trying to read Jan in the past. Many times. One memorable case.. or, well, the situation is fuzzy but his reaction was memorable - I just remember two people were arguing in like a f5 or f7? and I had reason to try and see if they would compromise or react to a third party lynch - basically, figure out if they are town/town fighting or if one of them has allegiances to another person and is pushing for a specific mislynch/avoiding the medic save that I had soft claimed. I just needed to avoid the medic. I chose Jan, but not because I found him particularly scummy. He was the medic and wowo did I realize I fucked up - he came back at me saying I was a fucking donkey that forced him to claim, etc.

Based on that experience, at the very least, I would expect to be thoroughly chided after that impulsive EOD flashwagon. Something about how you never do that if you're town and haven't been able to engage the person you're blitzing there. Something about how disastrous it could have been if he was a PR and we didn't let him claim. Something about how none of us have reasons and we're fucking idiots ignoring him and trying to throw the game... idk, something.

But, mitigating factors are combining with the fact that Newcomb is throwing off every single alarm bell in my brain again. His posts just don't read genuinely to me, whatsoever. They're... deliberate, yet make such a point of emphasizing how unsure and flip-floppy he is. They're going through towny motions with this veneer that ruins the whole thing for me.

So, I'm worried that Jan may actually be town and that, while Delphine is right, I wish Jan would engage me about my townreads from the fonti/newcomb interaction if he truly wanted to get newcomb lynched, maybe he's onto something?

Idk, I've been trying to decide if I gave either/both of fonti/newcomb too much credit from that interaction.

Yes, I directed some pointed questions at Newcomb a little earlier. It's because.. and this is me being overly analytical, but, if what he is now describing is the 'original townread' on fonti - basically, the progression by which fonti came to townread him, subtly, and pocket him - is something that could, from the way Newcomb described it early when he first got the read - is something that

can vanish? Like I'm breaking it down in my mind from Newcomb's pov that he is sharing:

1. Assumptions about how scum fonti would act with me(Newcomb) in the game.
2. Little direct interaction, but mindmeldy moments and the Delphine read interaction I analyzed already.
3. You townread fonti at this point and respond with that quoted part above without further interactions or posts with/from fonti.
4. You now explain the townread using a post from fonti (the "no problems with him/no problems with pressure against him" post) that happened after all of that.

So like.. I'm trying to get at why, at the time, you would describe that sort of a read (based on a progression of interaction) as something that could vanish? Even if her behavior changes, does that nullify the basis for THAT KIND of read?

Ugh, like... I feel like I am being ridiculous right now. But I think I've made a mistake somewhere in this game and am not sure where it is. I'm going to take a closer look at fonti but she doesn't seem similar to the scum fonti that I experienced recently, and if anything seems increasingly similar to the town fonti I know well from video. I also have more reasons to think Delphine is town from recent posts and only one stupidly minor thing that has even made me question that read.

Combine this with how despite what fonti says, I really liked Prophylaxis at EOD yesterday, both the long posts with analysis and his voting behavior - it's so fucking hard to see that coming from a mafia.

I just don't know who the fuck the team is if all of Snowvon, Delphine, Fonti, Newcomb, Prophylaxis, and Jan are all town...?

 

If it helps, I think overall I tend to sound more calm and reasonable as scum, and as town I tend to kind of ... flail around a bit more.

I should probably fix that.

---------- Post automerged at 03:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:08 PM ----------

I mean. Townreads aren't absolute. Like, here, I'll try to describe my entire progression on fonti:

> have a pretty vague idea of what fonti would do with me as scum

> make it more concrete based on posts she's making in this game

> settle on a semi-firm stance: "I think fonti would definitely try to pocket me, but I don't think it would be like this"

> EoD kind of reminds me of Atum EoD stuff in WH5.

> During the night, Storm dies

> I look back and notice fonti is getting basically zero pressure.

> Paranoia happens

> Long post kind of thinking it out

> But I still think she's town after all of that.

It's like... a balance of things. And trying to eliminate bias / feelings.

I really don't want to be tricked by scum!fonti. But I don't want to just be afraid of scum fonti for no reason. But I don't want to let her just slide on a read that holy shit maybe I totally whiffed on my "scumfonti would pocket me like this" thing. Why am I assuming I can just know that? You see? And everything is colored by that early meta read that holy shit maybe I just completely made it up in my own head! Maybe scum fonti has a whole different idea!

But even after all that, on balance, she's town. I can't vote on her here based on what she's done so far.

But I need everyone to at least read her and reassure me that they're not just kind of sponging onto my read.

<_< playing with fonti is so much easier when I'm mafia or she dies N1

 

^
Can confirm.

I do not want to lynch Newcomb.

 

But that's my point - you're flailing around a lot but the flailing is what I have issue with. While some of the main figures in your posts you've read for more concrete reasons, on the whole it seems to have too much of a narrative feel to it? Like, it's obviously gamesolvey on its face, but, sometimes the thoughts you're working through don't really resonate with the kind of emotions you're saying more than showing?

Like what do you think will come of your idea to run up fonti? I get that you're describing the same type of fear/paranoia about her that Jan has talked a lot about, but... you've had her as town, you've given many reasons lately why you think she is town, many people fail to see the mafia motivation for what she did at the EOD yesterday... so why? Just because nobody is? I don't get it.

---------- Post automerged at 18:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:21 ----------

Like, exactly this. That's what it seemed like you were getting at, but how do you go from reaching that conclusion to suggesting we run up a wagon on her? What does that accomplish? I just don't know why you say that when you obviously don't mean it - you don't vote her, you don't think she's mafia....

what?

 

Was joke???