Maybe I'm getting some fanon in, but didn't Sirius flat out say to Harry that he killed Lily and James? Seems to me like Dumbledore's (or Lupin's) statement about Sirius being behind the Potters being exposed, combined with Sirius' incoherence making it impossible to get an actual statement out of him regarding the truth of what happened, could well have contributed to him being sentenced and jailed without an in depth investigation.

 

lol, I always thought Hermione had kind of a point though . . . life as a witch or wizard who was expelled in their first year and had their wand snapped might just be worse than death.

 

Oh wow, I think we interpret Hermione's actions very differently. I thought it was pretty clear that Hermione was just worried about where Harry got the broom from for his own safety, and she would rather him be angry at her than dead. It's not like Harry had the best history when it comes to flying what with dementors attacking him and a professor attempting to curse his broom.

As for Lockhart, I always assumed it was a mixture of him being famous and fairly attractive. He seemed to be fairly popular with the women in the books from what I remember though it has been awhile since I've read that book. I never attributed it to authority.

She's also just generally shown a willingness to outright go against the rules. She really didn't like what Umbridge and the ministry were shovelling in her 5th year to the point where she actively challenged it and helped create an illegal club going so far as to curse/charm the parchment everyone signed to catch whoever tried to snitch on them. Not to mention her rather blatant misuse of a time turner, and her blackmailing a certain journalist. She's far from rule abiding/authority worshipping especially as the books go on.

Now, I agree with the expelled comment, but that was fairly early on in the first book, and it was before she had confirmation that a professor had actually tried to kill Harry. There were points where she disagreed with Harry over his views on Snape later on, but that would have been after she already saw Snape try to help/save them in previous years.

More to the point though, I just think it's way too contrived if she is right. Albus would have needed to somehow insure that Hagrid couldn't keep his mouth shut about how to get passed the dog, rely on Hermione's encyclopedic knowledge of plants, Ron's ability with chess, Harry's ability on a broom, and Hermione's ability to solve puzzles just so the meeting could take place.

That requires more manipulation on his part than is feasible. Unless you think he could manipulate Harry, Ron, and Hermione into being friends, find out their strengths, and somehow manipulate the professors into creating defences that they thought were good enough to stop a grown wizard but that these three kids just happened to be perfectly suited to getting through, and he would need to do all of this without tipping his hand. Not to mention, this all relies on the fact that they would be interested enough to even look into this mystery in the first place.

 

Were those traps good enough to stop an adult, though?

Devil snare is, apparently, common enough and safe enough that it is covered in first year herbology. The key thing is pretty straight forward and not dangerous at all. They didn't actually need to defeat the chess set; they just needed to get to the other side of the board. And Snape's thing was just a logic puzzle. The only legitimate obstacle is the troll (and Fluffy).

 

I think the worst parts of Dumbledore's "manipulations" happen in HBP.

There, instead of bribing/forcing the truth out of Slughorn Dumbledore sends Harry to butter him up, losing lots of valuable time. Instead of kicking Draco out of Hogwarts he looks by as innocent bystanders are nearly killed to give Draco time to reconsider his beliefs. Instead of telling the main dudes of the Order (Shacklebolt, Moody, McGonagall) that he's dying and plans to have Snape kill him, he doesn't, and the Order loses both it's only spy and it's HQ, rendering them pretty much impotent in the coming fight against the Death Eaters. Instead of telling Harry straight up about the horcruxes he mucks about with ambiguous lessons about Voldemort's past. And then when he dies he fails to ensure his critically important "inheritance" is actually delivered as intended (even though he anticipated that the ministry would interfere), causing Harry and co. unnecessary trouble in destroying the horcruxes.

Dumbledore's actions regarding Harry's upbringing and time in Hogwarts are more or less understandable, it's with everything else that he royally screws up.

 

So you are saying he should have taken the more violent route to accomplish his goals? Doesn't sound like him.

Because he believed everyone should have second chanses, even people like Draco who weren't the best example of a good person.

It was supposed to be a big secret yah know. Solidifying Snapes spot amongst Voldemorts closest.

Its more about understanding the person, what drives them and exploit their past. It surely helped in the Horcrux hunt later on.


There is of course alot more to these answers, alot of things that could deserve its own thread to be throughly discussed.

 

Was Devil's Snare actually covered in first year Herbology or was it just something Hermione read about/asked the professor about? Even if it was covered, how many adults would remember what a random plant they learned about when they were 11 was? Also, I'm pretty sure that same plant was used to kill someone in St Mungo's in the later books and no one in the hospital recognised it for what it was. I think that tends to lend evidence to the fact that it was good enough to stop an adult as several failed to notice what it was before it killed a patient.

The key thing is straightforward, but how many people are good enough at flying to actually catch it after locating it? Your statement about the chess set is wrong though. Ron left them instructions for how to checkmate the king after he was sacrificed and the king throws his crown at Harry's feet. As for Snape's challenge, it's mentioned that wizards aren't exactly great at logic puzzles in the books though there isn't any great evidence to support this statement other than Hermione's statement and the fact that Snape thought it would be a good way to stop someone.

 

I never saw any evidence that they had to win. Sure, they thought they had to win, but the door was just being blocked by the giant pieces. If they could get past them, they could get through the door. Therefor, they just have to get across the board.

You make a good point about the devil snare, so we'll add it as another legitimate obstacle, but the keys would have been brought down by a conjured net easily enough. Something any adult could do.

Hermione thinks many wizards don't have logic for the same reason Snape probably thinks so. She thinks she's smarter than everyone else. That doesn't make it a good obstacle, though.

That's a bunch of excuses.

Draco nearly killed Katie and Ron. He tried to cast an unforgivable curse at Harry. And Dumbledore knew the whole time and just ignored it to try to "save" Draco. A school headmaster just can't do that.

Similarly, Dumbledore could have found somebody to trust with his plan to have Snape kill him. At the very least so Snape could have someone to actually give any of his acquired intelligence to.

And there was no good reason to drag the horcrux stuff out the whole year when he could have done it all in a night. He didn't even need Slughorn's contribution, since he already suspected the number that Voldemort would shoot for.

The most compelling argument for manipulative!Dumbledore is that he flat out admits it. He told Snape straight out that he had raised Harry to be willing to sacrifice his life for the wizarding world.

 

That seems to be you making an assumption though. They could have very easily all attacked someone who tried to get passed without winning or the door could have simply refused to open until you beat the game. That is equally as valid as what you are asserting given the evidence or perhaps even more valid as that is what the characters think and they actually study magic. Plus, it actually worked as once they had checkmate they were allowed to cross without incident.

As for the keys, I'd honestly never thought of that. Mind you, it would still be annoying because you'd have to let them out of your net one at a time until you found the right one, and that's assuming that there wasn't some sort of magical reason that you might not want to try and cheat that room.

Either way, at this point the troll, Fluffy, Devil's Snare, and the mirror are all good defences with potentially three bad ones. The three bad ones could be good depending on how the room functions in two cases and if Hermione and Snape were both actually right about wizards and logic puzzles because you asserting it is because they think they are smarter than everyone else doesn't make it any truer than them asserting wizards are bad at logic.

 

You're right. The only argument I can think of at this point is that the stone could have been made safer, with less work, if it had been hidden behind a fiddelius charm, which Rowling probably hadn't even thought of yet.

 

My bottom line is that Dumbledore is a great (possibly the best) wizard with a wand and likely a good teacher, but as a leader he simply sucks. He holds on to critical information when he should share it, he fails to set clear goals to his followers, he fails to use the powers he is given, his schemes and strategies are shoddy at best and outright harmful at worst.

To Dumbledore's credit it must be said that he doesn't seem to want to be a leader, but is more or less forced to take up his many positions because the overall population sees him as some kind of messiah. And I don't really know if being a bad leader really counts at being manipulative.

 

That charm is just ridiculously poorly written. I don't think she put much thought into it even after she came up with the idea for it.

 

It seems like some fanfiction authors have put more thought into it than she has. On the flip side I do think Dumbledore was manipulative, but I don't really understand his methods. As stated before he had so many easier routes to take but went with the most ambiguous way. Hermione may not have abided by the ministry's authority, but she was more of a 'Dubledores man' than Harry in my opinion.

She only listened to something Dumbledore said, to the point that she would actively try and defend him when challenged by friends. I do think that Dumbledore is misinterpreted by 95% of all fanfic writers. I absolutely hate seeing a well written story with an amazing idea ruined with Dumbledore or Weasly bashing. I'm fine with pointing out people's flaws, but it just bugs me when the author goes on a mini rant that doesn't help the story. But in the end it is their story, and I am but a simple reader.

 

There are plenty of plot holes regarding magic in the HP world, as more than a few halfway rational fics have quickly dissected.

Quite a bit of Dumbledore bashing is probably because his canon methods are inscrutable at times. But that's how he was written: the eccentric and damaged genius who's suggested as quite the voyeur of his students. No surprise that he's manipulative or misinterpreted.

 

Please never speak again.

 

No I'm sure there are plenty of other twelve year-old's new to fanfiction who believe the same.

 

Or, alternately, Molly was talking to Ginny. Plenty of parents ask their children questions to which they know the answers in just that manner, and it's entirely plausible Molly was trying to alleviate Ginny's feeling of being left out.

 

No, fuck you! Dumbles and Weasalys want Harrys moneys. Drarry4Lyfe.

 

What seems to be coming next in this thread, like all Weasley!Bashing threads, is Ron's meeting Harry on the Express.
"All the other compartments were full."
I recently read a fic where a plausible explanation was put forward.
Ron's a poor kid with tattered robes and secondhand equipment. he was likely too embarrassed to sit with regular kids.
And then he sees Harry. Tattered clothing, broken glasses, sitting alone.
Who cares if he's Harry Potter? He looks just like me.