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WIP Harry Potter and the Prince of Slytherin By The Sinister Man - T

Discussion in 'Almost Recommended' started by iamnotreal, Jan 5, 2016.

  1. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    Great chapter, really enjoyed it.

    It was... a good feeling, to have some characters all sit down with different bits of information and actually share it. Especially since two of them aren't students but actual movers and shakers.

    Really enjoyed that.

    But the whole 'Prince of Slytherin' business still irks me. The fact that they are in Slytherin, and Harry has somewhat proven himself and has information of his own to share, and the fact that Harry is Heir Presumptive... those are enough reasons, along with a secrecy vow, for these people to have had this conversation.

    I think what bothers me about the 'Prince of Slytherin' concept is that... it's the equivalent of being Class President, and somehow having that matter for decades after you graduated High School.

    If something you acquire as a schoolboy is going to matter decades later when you are capable of affecting the politics of an entire nation on your own merits, I really think it needs to be set up so that I can get behind that concept.

    But fantastic chapter.

    This is going to be one of those fics I actually /follow/. Damn.

    Don't suppose the author is a DLP member? Has anyone invited him?
     
  2. Dicra

    Dicra Groundskeeper

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    I don't think he is. The only thing I know is that he reads this thread here whenever he's afraid that his head is getting too big (his own words, not mine) :D
    I haven't specifically invited him over, either.
     
  3. Alpaca Queen

    Alpaca Queen Fourth Year

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    I could not get into this fic, and I tried so goddamn hard. Please tell me if I quit too early, since this fic apparently takes a long while to get good, but I just could not read past the first 30 chapters.

    All my problems in it basically can be summed up in the scene of the first potions class. In this scene, Jim Potter (horrible name) butts heads with Snape in an implausibly perfect recreation of the infamous pop quiz scene. In order of appearance, the following problems appear:

    1: Characters are not rendered faithfully. In this case, Hermione: as seen with how much Ron's post-Charms comment hurt her in the first book, it's evident that she was at first somewhat insecure about fitting in and probably lacked many friends. This, combined with her initial respect for authority and desire to follow the rules, makes it highly unlikely that she would ever get out of her seat before the entire class to yell at a wizarding hero she's only known with for a few days - especially when that hero wasn't even being all that bad. I mean, sure, he was kind of a dick, but so was Snape, and in canon Hermione and the rest of Gryffindor recognized how unfair he was. Why didn't they here? Well...

    2: Despite the disclaimer, bashing is still rampant. The reason Hermione is okay to scream at Jim, and that virtually everybody but Ron hates his guts, is because the author doesn't understand what it means to bash a character. Yes, Jim still gets treated with fairness at times (the mirror scene comes to mind), but most of the time it seems that the circumstances of the universe are conspiring to make him seem as shitty a person as possible. Even when he's kind of right, he's not allowed to be right: virtually everybody condemns his actions, when the twins have done far more disrespectful stuff to teachers, and then the author introduces some bullshit about required reading that definitely wasn't in canon so that Jim is also breaking the rules. Then, Snape acts out of character himself and awards points to Hermione, when he never would've done so in canon, just to emphasize how much of a little shit Jim is, as if we didn't already get it. The author takes way too much pleasure in pointing how awful the character he created is. However, all this is only symptomatic of the final and largest problem with the story:

    3: Canon is dead, long live the cliche. I came into this story expecting a rejection of all the cliches of WBWLs, especially all the made-up setting elements that were played out before Harry Potter was written, but instead I see everything from non-canon politics to non-canon secret chambers running around. And it never fucking stops! I don't care if you change the setting some, because that's what AU means, but in a story like this with a single point of divergence you should always work to minimize the changes you need to create a unique story. In other words, if you are to make a change to canon:
    - Tell the audience beforehand about it, or at least warn them that changes will be made, so that they don't think you've made a mistake.
    - Ensure that the change is absolutely necessary to your story. If you can develop your characters and plot about the same without altering the setting, then don't.
    - Avoid retreading common ground here. If nothing else, at least realize that when a hundred other well-known stories have made the same change or set of changes, then your interpretation needs to be fresh to set itself apart.
    This fic violates all three of those rules I just made up to show how bad it is. I don't get any warning before Harry lays on the bullshit about Jim not doing his "assigned reading", or all the characters simultaneously deciding to go OOC. Most of the changes are completely unnecessary, and only serve to reinforce tired facts established three chapters in (i.e. Jim and James are dicks, or Harry is smart). And even those changes which are necessary to the plot and characters only end up making them more cliched and boring. Bashing, super-secret founder's legacies, goblin blood tests, noble house politics, convenient obliviated backstories, dear god it's like I'm having flashbacks.

    It frustrates me to no end, because I want to like this fic. It's long, the prose is generally unoffensive, people I respect seem to enjoy it, and so on. But I just can't, and I can't understand how other people can. It's a shitty fic, and it deserves a shitty rating: 2/5.

    (...Heir presumptive. *gags*)
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2016
  4. Dicra

    Dicra Groundskeeper

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    Which is one of the, if not the worst scene of the entire story, I agree. I can't do more than assure you it will get far better, but I'm aware that this fic does make a horrible first impression.

    I personally think that Hermione was and is still the character with maybe the worst characterisation. She seems like canon Hermione being super intelligent and perceptive and with tremendous social skills and all that. Luckily, until now, she didn't show up as much as she did in the first year, which doesn't make that criticism less valid, but maybe less important. For year 2, she's more like a secondary character.

    Two things to that: 1. I can assure you that the bashing of Jim Potter will cease to be, and he will be a very likeable character - at the moment, I'm not even sure if I like him more than Harry.
    2. I had a conversation with the author about Jim's actions and the reactions to it at the beginning of first year, and he said that he wanted to show the BWL acting exactly like he did in most WBWL fics and, instead of being cheered for it, this blowing up in his face. Not exactly a valid reason for having bad characterisation at the start of a fic, but I can understand it somehow with the author's goal being to subvert the WBWL clichés.
    I hope that I can at least assure you that Jim in year 2 will be one of the reasons to like the fic.

    Well, the author tries to subvert the commonly known clichés and his way of doing that seems to be to first establish and later subvert them.
    That's a reason for most of the changes, I think.
    Apart from that, what can I say? All the things you mention are actually there, and still, I'd recommend you to read on, because:
    -a very well thought-out plot with many interesting subplots
    -Jim's character development
    -the absolute brilliance that is Gilderoy Lockhart in this fic
    -my personal new headcanon about what dark magic actually is
    -nice humour
    -etc etc etc

    And in general, you've pulled through 20 chapters of unpleasant reading, and now the real meat awaits you. You won't want to miss that, will you? :D

    Of course, I can't guarantee you'll like it. But I can guarantee it'll be far better in comparison to year 1.
     
  5. Absolutista

    Absolutista Fifth Year

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    It's rare but suicide on such young ages do happen and most people certainly do not get mind raped by Voldemort.

    Ginny shrugging it off so easily on canon actually felt weird to be honest. I'd expect PTSD at the very least.
     
  6. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    IMO it's just not for you mate. If you really aren't into it by that point, I wouldn't suggest continuing.

    Does it get better? Yes.

    Does it get that much better? No.

    If you thought it was mediocre so far, with nothing really going for it, but maybe a guilty pleasure you'd put into "Almost Recommended," then keep going. It will probably improve enough to grab your interest.

    But if your interest isn't already grabbed, despite the major issues of the fic, then I don't think it's going to get there. If the clever world-building, AU concepts, and additions to canon don't make you curious to see what's going on with them... then yeah, not for you.

    This is the sort of thing that I write off in an AU. In my mind I clearly differentiate between a canon divergence, or a universe where only one thing changed from canon at some point, and a full AU. This is a full AU. So long as Hermione is (1) smart, and (2) a good guy everything else can be written off as Hermione simply being different in this AU. It's not and never was canon.

    The same applies to all characters for me. So long as I can see the core of the character there, it's actually quite fun to see how different they can be in other ways for an AU.

    But if you're not diving into that, then again, I'd say that's because you aren't into it. Not because it's a 'problem' the author screwed up in their AU. Granted they could have done it better, but I'm fine with the concept.

    Again, this is a full AU. To me that means that so long as it's internally consistent (it isn't always), it's doing the story a disservice to talk about how 'canon' would have done it, or how things aren't like they are in canon.

    The bashing... I can sort of see your point there. You're saying that the author is trying not to bash but they don't properly understand the concept of bashing, so they're doing it anyway.

    I guess to a point you're right? But in a lot of fics that I hate because of bashing, the characters are bashed just... to be bashed. There's no character growth or plot relevance, and the author uses another character as a straw man to talk about how bad/wrong they are. I didn't see as much of that aspect of it here, so even though I did roll my eyes sometimes it was... okay, I guess.

    I'm not saying all of that to argue, disagree, or to point out that you're 'wrong' because you're not. It's personal preference.

    You can guess what I'm going to say here, right?

    I think that AUs in general, where the world itself is different in fundamental ways from canon, might not be your cup of tea in general.

    Also .... *reads* Huh, didn't see this part of your post before:
    Where did you get the impression that there was supposed to be a single point of divergence? Given how obvious it is (to me) that that is NOT what the story is, I can only guess that the author said it at some point?

    The author has no idea what they're writing then, if that was their statement. Just like they didn't quite seem to understand every aspect of bashing.

    Wild magic? Esoteric magic? Presumptive/Apparent heirs? Regulus not being dead? A bunch of 'spoiler' things I won't say?

    The world itself is different. Magic itself is different. If the author said they were doing a single point of divergence, then yeah. That is so clearly not what they're doing.

    I felt that it was obvious early on that there were a lot of changes to canon.

    More than that, I disagree with the second point. Could the author have written this story without making up a term like "esoteric magic" for spells that require a certain state of mind? Sure. That change isn't required for the story, or I don't think it is. But it's fun and interesting.

    The author said outright that they wanted to turn a lot of things on their head, IIRC. The author gave (or hinted at) reasons why werewolves are hated (beyond simple prejudice) and why free elves are dangerous (wild magic).

    I don't know if those are going to be required to tell the story, but those are the reasons why I like the story. Or things like that are.

    If it wasn't for all the additions/changes to canon, this would be just another almost recommended bullshit slytherin!Harry story.

    The things you cite as negatives are the positives for me.

    So, in closing...

    TL;DR - It's not for you. You aren't 'wrong' to dislike it. You have a lot of good reasons and you state them eloquently. But the things that make you dislike the fic aren't going to get better, so no point continuing. In fact, if I were you, I'd have stopped a lot earlier.
     
  7. Dicra

    Dicra Groundskeeper

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    I think you're right in that, chapter 25-34 aren't that much worse than, say, 50-60.
    But when you get that bad a first impression, that may influence your opinion; at least it did in my case. I mean, especially those first ten chapters are weaker when it comes to writing, but they also seem to throw every cliché you already know in your face, so it seems like a bog-standard WrongBWL story. The following ten chapters include Neville being abused, which is ok done, but not exactly a new concept. Additionally, the whole "Prince of Slytherin" business comes pretty much out of nowhere.
    So, what we have is a pretty bad first impression that's followed by mediocre chapters. In my case, at least, I also let my opinion of the following chapters be influenced by those first chapters, so I only read this story as a "hey, that's so bad it's even kinda funny"-"guilty pleasure"-mixture thing at first.
    And I think, something similar goes for him, because most of the things he mentions do happen between ch. 1 and ch. 10.
    In your case, that bad first impression wasn't as bad, because you read ch. 50 first.

    My main problem with Hermione in this story always was that the author tried to reason her character with supposed canon evidence. But just as I write this I get the idea that he only did do that with her intellect - which still is, imo, wrong, but not as bad.

    OK, in that case I'd advise not reading on as well.

    No, he didn't. In fact, in his "AN" in the very first chapter he said:
    "AU with multiple departure points (though still hewing to basic HP canon, at least through Fourth Year)"

    Yeah, just quoted because it was so right. I think we have similar things in "Harry Potter and the Boy Who Lived".

    I think, at least in second year, that the multiple interesting subplots are another factor that lift this story up to "more than another almost recommended" Slytherin!Harry story, because, without them, the additions would be nice but ultimately pointless.

    EDIT: Just something OT I've been meaning to ask since forever: Why is the word "author" sometimes used with the pronoun "they"?
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  8. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    Probably because it's gender neutral. Or perhaps that plus the fact that 'author' doesn't always feel like it refers to a single person, even though it does.
    Gilderoy Lockhart is the author of Wagga Wagga Werewolf. He chose to leave out some salient points.

    The author of Wagga Wagga Werewolf needs to work on incorporating detail. They missed some important points.
    Maybe there's a grammar thing I don't know jackshit about that provides an actual reason. But it's probably just wrong. I do it anyway, as shown in the example above.
     
  9. theimmortalhp

    theimmortalhp Third Year

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    It's not even wrong anymore. It started as people trying to be gender-neutral because English doesn't have a genderless pronoun, but it's an official part of the language now (I believe the Oxford Dictionary includes a definition of "they" as a replacement to he/she).
     
  10. PWIZDUO

    PWIZDUO Fourth Year

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    It is still wrong.

    Most publishing style guides still indicate to use singular pronouns and reformulate the sentence to avoid he/she or to just randomly choose one.

    Its one of those things that gets me raging if I see it in newspaper.
     
  11. liquefry

    liquefry First Year

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    I don't see this as a big problem in the wizarding world, where the house you're sorted in to as an eleven year old impacts on pretty much every relationship from that point on - it is shown affecting prospects for jobs, friends and partners, breaking family ties, etc. So just being a Slytherin is seen as important not just during school, but basically from that point on.

    Viewed in this context, being the "Prince of Slytherin" is massive. The Prince is more than just a Class President, it is a title conferred by magical means only on those that are deemed "worthy". Chapter 27 of this fic says that Lucius was the second to last Prince, and we now know who the last was too. Harry hasn't actually been confirmed as a Prince yet. So there's only been two "Princes" in twenty years, and maybe another during the next six. Say there's 10-15 kids sorted into each house every year, that's 2 going on 3 Princes out of 250-300 Slytherins. Basically the people with this title, who don't actually broadcast the fact, are confirmed as having the character of some sort of ultra-Slytherin - the top 1%. It makes sense to me that this would be something that other Slytherins respect.
     
  12. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    For me this is the problem. It's a problem I have with canon as well, though to a lesser extent.

    This guy changed canon up in a lot of ways. He's tried to come up with reasons/explanations for a lot of things that only somewhat made sense in canon. But instead of explaining this one he made it worse, at least in my view.

    The house you were in at school shouldn't matter once you've been gone for a few years and have more credentials to your name. I stopped putting the name of my High School and "Salutatorian" on my resume a decade ago because it no longer matters.

    So the issue I have with this story is that it failed to EITHER (1) give me a reason why your house remains relevant into adult careers or (2) make people stop caring about it.

    The addition of the "Prince of Slytherin" concept means I'd have hoped for #1. The author has changed up canon in so many other ways that I'm disappointed he didn't find a way to make this make sense.

    Cheers
     
  13. Kai Shek

    Kai Shek Supreme Mugwump

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    It kind of makes sense if you follow the prejudice that's held with each house and which job you're applying to.

    Someone hiring for a position directly beneath him who might one day have the skills to replace him might not for example, look for a Slytherin. Because they know that a Slytherin would be more likely to be ambitious enough to figure out a way to replace them.

    Someone might hire a Slytherin if they are looking for work being done off the books, discretion, and are required to think outside the box in solving problems.

    Sure, you can work your way up into these positions as another house after a decade or so when people finally learn that you're more than the stereotype of whatever house your in, but you have to have the opportunities to get there first.

    Most positions probably wouldn't matter one way or the other, but I can see how certain positions might have an employer looking one way rather than another when it comes to which house you were in.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
  14. Dicra

    Dicra Groundskeeper

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    The seemingly strange importance of the houses can imo be, as @Kai Shek implied, explained with the fact that the hat is basically a character judge. It's not only that you've been in a different house, no, your character has been examined (and examined quite well, at that) and you've been judged by your most defining (positive) traits - and I imagine that to be pretty interesting for every employer/man/whatever.

    However, if this problem really irks you that much @CheddarTrek I'd suggest you write the author a PM and ask him about it. He normally responds.
     
  15. liquefry

    liquefry First Year

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    I agree that wizards (and witches) seem to place a ridiculously high emphasis on house sorting. Even if the sorting hat was an infallible reliable judge of character, with only four different houses there's not a lot of distinction really, and discriminating for or against any one house affects 25% of the population. But the sorting hat is totally fallible. It seems to make mistakes, in canon there are plenty of people that display character traits from other houses much more strongly than their own. And you can negotiate your way into a house. That's not even going in to the craziness of judging an adult based on the character they had when they were 11. Both the sorting system and way it affects life into adulthood are pretty flawed.

    However, the logic for the Prince being important makes a lot more sense. Again it's based on a magical selection, which could be flawed, but its a much higher bar than just "this ones a bit ambitious, better be Slytherin". Only a very select few people get chosen, perhaps only 1% of the Slytherins as I estimated above, which is maybe 1 out of every 400 people. You still get selected as Prince quite young - the periods noted in the book for previous Princes are for 2-3 years so in 5th or 6th year, say either 15 and 16 years old. But this is much later in development than age 11, so is a better indication of what you'll be like as an adult. The existence of the Prince seems to be a secret that only 7th year Slytherin Prefects know anything about (and the Princes, and I guess the people that the Prince tells). Draco doesn't know about his father being the Prince. So the club is pretty small and seems to be treated with great reverence by those in it.

    Consider also that people selected as Prince have been approved by "all seven serpents" making the selection, each of which judges the Prince against a "different characteristic that the Founder considered important for his students" - vision, political acumen, intellect, cunning, charm / subtlety, ruthlessness, and respect for wizarding traditions. Makes sense to me that someone that has demonstrated that they have all these abilities would take the views of others like them quite seriously, even later in life.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
  16. Dicra

    Dicra Groundskeeper

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    Lots and lots of new loose ends opened up with this new chapter, one being done out of what previously was something that could be criticized (and now, of course, now longer can).
    The chapter was like the previous one, nothing completely outstanding, but a truly enjoyable and engaging read and it contained some very interesting scenes.
    Apart from that, Jim Potter is - at the moment at least - indeed the bigger man of the duo. In general that was one of my favourite scenes, despite (to be honest: BECAUSE) it being a little fluffy.
     
  17. Baradine

    Baradine Seventh Year

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    This latest chapter is so fucking out there. It's like a fever dream - 30 H's with plot. What in the actual fuck.
     
  18. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    What the actual fuck. I'm 100% with you here, at least in terms of house elves. I mean, technically, all that happened there was two house elves clashed with each atop a train. And yet...
    The great beetle storm lashed out at the winged figure, but Lar Dobby quickly wrapped his wings around his colossal mass to shield against the attack. He retaliated by unleashing a gamma ray burst that would have exterminated all life within this pocket universe had it been inhabited by anyone other than the two Lares. Lar Mogli screamed in pain and anger, his voice echoing down the dimensional corridor so loudly that it would have caused permanent insanity to much of the human race had the two fought no more than three layers removed from Reality. In a fury, Lar Mogli willed the scarabs which comprised part of his vast bulk to solidify into an arm which ripped through a nearby gas giant, yanking out its hyperdense metallic hydrogen core and hurling it at Lar Dobby.
    ... ... ... is all I can say. I mean, to be fair, that fight scene did have a few interesting meta-type concepts going on, like how Dobby worried more about getting Harry's rooms sorted out right after. But still. What the actual fuck.

    Otherwise? The chapter was a bunch of short scenes that served to both wrap up plot points and set up new ones for the upcoming school year. A good chapter but too clearly a transition to 'next year' to be a great one.
     
  19. Pure Infinity

    Pure Infinity High Inquisitor

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    So I just read chapter 82...

    Wtf did I just read? Malfoy is called "Drake" now, Filch used the word "reprobate", Harry is giving Ron motivational speeches, the dialogue jumped on the bus to wtf town, there was a confrontation between House Elves that left me unsure whether I was actually reading HP and the Prince of Slytherin or if I had ingested a large amount of bleach and was now experiencing a particularly odd fever dream, Peter Pettigew and Narcissa Black are apparently sleeping together, wtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtfwtf
     
  20. iamnotreal

    iamnotreal Second Year

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    Finally having reached the conclusion to book two I have to say I've been seriously impressed with the improvements undertaken over the course of this book. That being said the whole, shall we say, 'house elf meta-battle?!' was a bit of a blow but considering how this story has handled previous issues it will be addressed competently later I'm hoping.
    The end of the story really was the chapter previous with this merely setting up what I assume to be the salient conflict points for book 3; very excited to see how it plays out on September 1st. That being said hopefully something good comes of the short stories he talked about in the A/N.
     
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