Here's a question that I've been mauling over for a while. You see when I started writing as a kid my first stories were based on my life and those around me. This is still the best way for me to think of original stories, come up with a scanario and throw personalities I know or parts of myself at it and see what happens.

Here's the crux of the question, because I almost exclusively write about OCs I tend do use parts of me and my experiences to write in fanfiction as well. I actually intend to write about myself in the world of HP when the info on ilvermorny comes out.

So, you know what, if your answer to this question is yes then just say so and why. But for those of you who think that it's the way people self-insert, not the actual act, that causes trouble... I have a chalange. One that I plan on fulfilling myself. Do you think that you could write a good self insert fiction? Well, if you do, say so and I'll make a new thread with the chalange.

 

A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court by Mark Twain is the classic counterexample to the "self inserts = badness" thing. And, given the insane popularity of MoR, it would seem that it extends to fanfiction as well.

I believe I could write a passable SI, though I doubt anyone would be interested in reading it.

 

Yes. Because you're pretty much inserting yourself into a world of fiction, where you already know the end results of everything that is going to happen. It usually comes off as self indulgent, or a wankfest. Like, if you do an SI and the pairing happens to be with Fleur, it's going to be awkward and self-serving.

 

/raises hand

 

I say no for one simple reason. If you never mentioned that it was a self insert story, nobody should be able to tell the difference from a story with an original main character. As long as it's well written and you don't make the protagonist a Gary/Mary Stu, it'll read just like any other story, but with a slight gimmick because SI stories by nature are used to draw comparisons between the real world and the fictional world.

 

SI's aren't inherently bad - but for me, the only way an SI story would truly be great/realistic, is if the self insert were to consistently fail at everything they set out to do. And who would want to write a story about themselves sucking just as much in a fantasy world as they do irl? Just wouldn't be fun.

When writing non-SIs, you have a sense of separation that allows you to be more... realistic. To portray flaws and the like, without trying to pretty them up, even a little.

Even the good self inserts people talk about usually have the SI succeed at things - and what comes across as natural progression for typical characters, comes across as a wankfest for SIs. At least for me, anyway.

 

Not inherently bad. SI stories can be enjoyable and that's all that matters to me personally.

 

I have to take a note from Infimity post and say that while No is the answer, there is a big but in thr end, since the way I can see it an SI can only go two ways, - The SI adapts to the world he was thrown in and is becoming indistinguishable from the characters, thus destroying the main hook of the story and having us to read about someone who is more than likely just an average guy who isn't either original or interesting; or -The SI is done badly and misus his information, either by doing to well and killing the plot or being too incompetent and killing most of the interest on the story.

Good SI Fics:
This Bites (really dislike the protag but its well written)
Leech Lord
Masses to Masses

 

How does your story benefit from a Self-Insert? If the story was going to be an OC and you're switching to SI just for the heck of it, well, sure you'll learn some things but the story probably won't be best served.

One particular downfall of SI is a heightened sense of Mary Sue.

If I were to do it I would look for opportunities to be honest and poke some fun at myself (and gain some reader sympathy for the "character").

Right from the off rather than getting a perfect wand I'd probably be stuck with a non-verbal, unsubtle, prone to flamboyant bursts and bangs, accident prone, temperamental wand (Dogwood and Dragon Heartstring maybe). Then I'd be too busy dealing with my wand, with its bad sense of timing, humour, and stubborn willfull mind of its own to do anything important.

That's another thing I'd do. Avoid being too serious. Being the SI who makes everything better, knows exactly how to solve the Voldemort problem or fix whatever perceived issues exist within Hogwarts and the world.

Add to the above and I'd be the guy who gets warped somewhere and is the doppelganger to someone in trouble with aurors, hitwizards, goblins, and a curse breaker (like movies with a regular joe mixed up with FBI and mob). This way the SI isn't lucky to be in the wizarding world, it hasn't solved my issues, I haven't solved theirs, I'm just trying to stay in one piece.

You might be better served looking at it from a positive point of view- the strengths, benefits, and unique opportunities that the Self-Insert genre gives. I can't think of the particulars (maybe conflicts and absurdities between an in-the-know, but actually woefully ignorant, muggle and the wizarding world), but find them and exploit them, that and avoid the weaknesses of the genre for best effect.

Good luck, I think a Self-Insert could be awesome, just very hard to pull off (particularly if presented as serious story telling).

 

This sounds, to me, like more of a you problem than a problem with the stories.


As far as the OP's question:
I think they're inherently more difficult to write, but that really isn't the same thing. They make you far more vulnerable to the trap of over-indulging in your own fantasies in your writing and unless you have truly exceptional self-knowledge will probably make your character more difficult to portray believably. I suppose if you're not emotionally invested in what you're inserting yourself in and shit at plotting things out and coming up with characters they could improve your writing, but shined up shit is still shit.
Still, though, if you have the chops to write it and it's the particular story you need to tell they can be good.

 

Self-inserts are usually self-insert-centric. There is nothing wrong with creating a character based on certain character traits of yourself, it can be done quite well in fact. Hermione is a prime example. But when you, the author, are manipulating things to go your, the character's, way things often become more than a little contrived and the world loses what makes it appealing, spontaneity. OC's are better placed for success, but many stories have demonstrated that creating an enthralling character is difficult and is why they are resorting to fan fiction in the first place.

I think that in order to write a good self inert it has to be somewhat OC, Kenchi618's Less Than Zero is a good example. From all of Kenchi's writing you can tell he inserts a little bit of himself into his protagonists, usually Naruto, which is unavoidable to an extent. But his character is entertaining, charismatic, vulnerable and grounded in a way that he feels like any other character you may come across except that you like him. I think the main issue is that people don't have realistic constraints upon the effect that their SI can have upon the world. Or at least they don't develop it slow enough to feel natural.

There is also the fact that most SI's seem to be able to navigate the plot with the least resistance since they already know how things turn out. It almost fall into bad time travel tropes.

I definitely think that it can be done well but I think that more often than not you're tackling a self indulgent style of writing that holds little value. OC's to me will always be a much more grounded and purposeful way of incorporating elements of your personality into a story.

 

The fact that most SI fics are written in the first person may also contribute to their poor qualities. Reading the stories through the SI's thoughts and feelings tend to take away a lot of the mysteries and make the narrative sound childish, especially when the authors try to make SIs funny by using some inside jokes with the readers.

If authors start using third person POVs, the qualities may improve. At the very least, it would make the exposition slightly more subtle.

I think the best SI story would be the one where we don't know the identity of the SI, using the POV of a random character or multiples of them. This way, the story would be like a mystery and we would only be exposed to small pieces of information, trying to figure out the SI's identity based on the changes made from Canon.

 

Speak for yourself, some of us are pretty kickass irl. I see no reason why "me, with magic" should consistently fail at things when "me, without magic" doesn't.

Then again I tend not to write self-insert stories...

To add an example to Twain, Dante's Divine Comedy is one giant self-insert fanfiction and the fanon world it created is perhaps more popular than the canon it was based on, plus it's quite well-written. Not to mention Tolkien's Beren and Luthien, which is so blatantly a superpowered self-insert that he literally has their names carved on he and his wife's graves.

 

I don't think the SI is what kills the story for me. For the most part they are just another OC inserted into a fic. It's the "fix-it" or the "I know everything and plan to use that knowledge to win everything and not change a single piece of continuity in the process" that kills it for me.

Unless you're a night janitor in some random office building that has nothing to do with the plot or any of the other characters, then just you being there will change things. And I haven't seen a single SI or OC that hasn't been involved with the main plot in one way or another in any fic. Subsequently, most times, we promptly enter the "fix-it" portion of the story.

Take that into consideration and your SI/OC fic will be readable... if you can write in the first place that is.

 

Really depends on what you do with it. I haven't found a good SI story that is about someone being sucked into a DVD/Game/Manga/whatever and then entering that fandom as themselves, as they are right now. There, i think, it also depends on which fandom you chose. I guess it can be done well but haven't really seen that. That's more the classical take on SI's, but as said before, they are rarely good, mostly for the reason Heather said. It often involves a lot of forced and contrived plot fixing and badly written and rushed romance.

The other, which I like a lot more, is the new type of SI that pretty much launched with Dreaming of Sunshine (pretty sure it existed before but DoS made that format famous, I think), in that the SI is reincarnated in that fandom and is living and growing up there from birth, but still remembering most of the past.

I like that because, especially in regards to Naruto, it allows the SI/OC to believably acclimate to that world and learn the stuff there.

The question there is, how much of that is still an SI? After all, growing up there, experiencing so much of that culture and a completely different way of life, how much is that character still you? Relatively little, I'd say and I kinda like that.

So, no, they aren't inherently bad, they do require skill, patience, restraint and planning though.

That said, I have zero tolerance for SI fics where the author just drops themselves into a fandom as they are now via some magical being, which also gives them a magic power to keep up with everyone else there and they proceed to stomp everyone there because you see they are so much smarter than everyone else and they know the plot so they can outmaneuver the characters and win all the time.

Those can die in a fire.

 

Then you have the "I remember every conceivable detail from the story I've just been inserted into; exact dates, exact times, full names of everyone involved (even NPCs), places, every event, etc., and I know how to counter said events in so that everything is perfectly in line in my favor." Even if it wasn't specifically mentioned in the story.

I can't even remember what I had for dinner last night very clearly, much less what time I ate. I think it was hot dogs.

 

You could do a thing where they remember only ten words about the world of choice. Something like "Harry", "Blubber", "Riddle", "Horcrux", "Nitwit", "Dumbledore", "Tweak", "Voldemort", "Oddment" and "Snape".

Mind you, I said nothing about them remembering what they mean, if they're people or things, or which of them are even relevant. They just have these words consistently popping up in their minds (not all at once, obviously) from time to time.

 

I don't see why that's a problem only for me specifically. If a story comes across as a wankfest, it comes across as a wankfest. I hardly think dismissing my criticism of SI stories is reasonable - considering I take the same stance with harem stories, and stories where Harry is an angst ridden badass, who's an heir to the four founders.

It's less about whether or not you would succeed, and more how you succeeding would come across in a fictional story that you yourself write.

 

I like SI stories. Especially in small fandoms, because they're normally more than two or three thousand words of fix-it.

There are two major problems I've found with SI fics, apart from those already mentioned.

1: self-diagnosis and harping on about it.
John Smith ends up in Equestria/DC/Japan/Space!Japan, and a few months in still has trouble talking to people. This is because of their PTSD from a friend dying in high school.
Or maybe they have ADH PRETTY BUTTERFLY and they are so LOLRANDUMB and hyperactive and ISN'T IT FUNNY GUIZ?
This will be a recurring problem, and often have an entire arc based around their waifu fixing them up through their magical healing vagina.
I don't know if the author actually believes they have whatever they've given their SI, or whether they do it for dramatics, either way it's terrible.

2: nearly SI
John Smith ends up in Magical Chicago/Marvel/Legoland, and he is the same as the author but in shape because he was in the army and the marines and has a gun so can kill you all so dead!!1!

Because the author is a basement dweller who works in IT, they feel (perhaps rightly) that they might not fit in too well with the cast of super powered individuals. So they transplant their personality into the body of Odysseus, make them a tacticool genius in line with Creed, and give them infinite ammo because how else will the locals bow down to SI's superiority?


That said, you can get some decent ones. But when writing an SI you're going to highlight your positive sides, and shadow your negatives. So doing an SI based on a friend or family member might work if you want to add a rounded OC though.