When I read about Grimmauld Place, the portraits of Walburga and Phineas made me think about how families work in the magical world. Several pieces of magic would seemingly have an important impact.

First of all, wizards' extended life span means that more generations are alive at the same time. Muggles generally don't have any living family older than grandparents, but wizards have extra decades tacked on. In my experience, older generations have an enormous influence on how cohesive a family is, so their extended presence should create changes in the magical world.

Secondly, objects like portraits and pensieves allow for more extensive and personal legacies. Plenty of people are proud of their past family members for being veterans, businessmen, or for any number of achievements. With wizards this takes on a new dimension. Magical families don't only have stories passed down, but their ancestors are actually there to tell them those tales or even leave memories of significant events.

Could these differences and others cause significant changes in how magical families work? Also, how well supported is this in canon? The Weasley siblings have their great aunt Muriel, Neville has a great uncle and aunt, and the Blacks have an extensive history, but beyond that I can't think of much else.

 

It changes everything really, the fact that blood elitists still exists, the use of regular quill with a pot of ink instead of a standard self refilling one, unpractical robes, candle light instead of magical bulbs of light, the use of owls instead of a magical piece of parchment with a protean charm on it, and the list goes on. If something affect their families it will reflect on everything else, thats how it works. You can expect a certain behavior from a Malfoy, while the Weasleys have red hair and are poor, the Lovegoods believe in anything that have no solid proof of existence and etc ..

 

This sounds both ignorant and presumptuous.

Your list sounds like a pro-muggle rant about everything the wizarding world is behind on compared to muggles. It's a fantasy world with wizards. Certain things are expected, like robes. Are you ignoring cultural tradition? Why do muggles wear ridiculous, expensive, hard to move in suits. Ties? Hell, any sort of non-practical clothes? Did you wear practical track suit every day in your life? Robes were used in the past. It's not like they're unpractical. Candle light? Hogwarts has a medieval magical setting. They can charm lights when needed. Owls? Yeah, they're not cell phones, but your protean parchment makes little sense. Are you supposed to have a parchement for every single person you intend on writing in your life?

Then there's your family argument. Every Malfoy is a rotten dark wizard, huh? How about Sirius and the Blacks? Weasleys are poor at the moment, yes... but they could become rich. Fred and George were certainly doing well for themselves. Lovegoods believe in anything imaginary? We only know Luna and her father. You're going to cast the entire family in this light? Even the descendants, they're going to be odd and quirky just because they're Lovegood? That's some nice family prejudice there.

Yes, in Harry Potter, families are stronger than your usual muggle families. The existence of ancient and noble houses alone is significant. And these old lines certainly have a reputation for being something. But there are always exceptions, and new families would likely be very comparable to a muggle family. Talking portraits yes, but I doubt that pensieves are common.

Wizards are still just people. Some have old blood with deeper roots, but they're still just familes in the end. And every family is a bit different.

 

It's like people never remember that the Floo exists.

 

Longer lifespans should have massive impact on how the society works, but it really doesn't in canon. The "wizards have life expectancy of 137,5 years" thing is just one of those little factoids that Rowling throws around but doesn't follow through.

The canon wizarding world is simply a copy of the real world with quirky fantasy flavoring.

 

He asked weather people with long lives would affect their families and i said yes. People with longer lives can limit their possibilities to create new things. I didnt say that all Malfoys are dark wizards, it depends on which timeline youre referring to, but you can expect a certain behavior from pretty much every wizarding family, including the Malfoys. And the Lovegoods that i know of are very loony, you are the one presuming that the future ones might not be, but i think its valid to add that they will no longer be Lovegoods because Luna married Rolf Scamander, so they most likely will get their surnames from the man (Edit: I just checked and indeed they are named Lorcan Scamander and Lysander Scamander). Again an old concept but lets not get into it.

Sirius is not exactly like his whole family but he certainly have a lot of slytherin traits and from the Black family, cunning, disregard for rules.. he enjoyed showing his power, of course the main difference is that he used this on "bad guys" and not for personal gains, the thing that saved him from going to slytherin was the fact that he met James on the train, but as Dumbledore says its our choices that defines who we really are.

I was just trying to answer the guy's question, and its more than obvious that old people have a lot of influence in that world. Fred and George, yes they invented a bunch of candy and other stuff, but honestly they are not that impressive, in my view it should be common sense, every person should be able to make a shield cloak and whatnot, which proves again that a majority of Witch and Wizards are incompetent, most of them only know the basics of O.W.L and maybe N.E.W.T.

And all of this, i believe its because they are too happy with things the way they are, innovation often comes from necessity, and it all comes down to the old people in their families, they can influence everything. I am not pro-muggle, Wizards are superior and always will be they just dont use magic to its full potential. In such a small magic community they should have a different behavior, there's plenty of opportunities to create new things, all they need is creativity. But with their Great Grandmother or whatever complaining on their ears that they should be Prefects, or work at the Ministry, do this and do that .. how can they ever invent something new. Fred and George, again, are innovative because they dont go by the "rules", they decided what they wanted to do and went for it, even dropped out of Hogwarts.

Yes my suggestions are not particularly good, you made a good point there about the protean charm. Its just how i write, i like to give examples and suggestions to make people think, instead of detailing every single thought process, while the ideas i shared on this thread are not particularly good, the main point is that every Witch or Wizard have everything they need to make a difference and invent more practical, safe and discreet ways to communicate and while they are at it, why not make everything better. Hagrid complains that muggle train is slow but they are okay with Owl delivery taking hours and sometimes days to reach the target. Robes are definitely not practical, it should at least be open on the front, its funny how you use muggle history to prove your argument and yet you accuse me of being pro-muggle. I hope this makes my other comment more clear. Thanks for reading.

 

'Saved' him from going to Slytherin? Hmm.

Shields are used for self-defence. If you don't live a particularly dangerous lifestyle, why bother? It's the same thing as calling someone incompetent because they didn't learn martial arts.

What makes you think they aren't innovative? And about the 'complaining' issue...well, since being a Prefect is proof of one's competence and a nice mark for any curriculum, I don't get how that's a bad thing.

Regarding the actual question, not much difference at all - besides their greater ties with their past and its implications. Culture affects family dynamics, yes, but those depicted in the books were pretty close to families as most of us know them.

 

In a world where love potions are sold, where you can get jinxed behind your back, it does not need to be something harmful, just a simple but irritating hex or jinx (Like Harry did when he was testing Snape's spells on people's backs), it should be common sense to be able to protect yourself from possible treats. And since we are comparing to muggles, well technically anyone with a healthy body (And by that i mean with all the limbs and stuff, basically anyone "normal") should practice sports and be intelligent, people are just lazy, but i dont like this kind of comparison. Wizards are way different, with intelligence, creativity and a wand they can accomplish whatever they want, as long as its within the limits of magic.

And answering your question, they are not innovative because they are tied to old habits, and the fact that Fred and George invented what Wizards consider awesome stuff while at school, and we know that Zonkos was still around at the time, why didnt they, Zonkos, invent all of this? They should be doing research and making new and useful items, if i remember correctly Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes was considering buying Zonkos to expand, so while i accept that Weasleys really are clever and talented, the fact that they could do that in a super short amount of time is impressive, Zonkos was around for years and years.

So what this tells me is that there is a lot of room for improvement and innovation, which backs my previous arguments. I am not saying that F and G are dumb, on the contrary, they are the very proof that old habits are bad, they didnt want to be Prefects, they always did their own thing, they were confident, F and G didnt get many O.W.L's (Molly complained about it in GoF) and so on. Even Hermione was impressed by their "Headless Hat" because although the hat itself does not cover the whole head, the magic makes the whole head disappear, the spell goes beyond the objects physical limits.

Prefect and other awards is not a bad thing, unless it prevents you from doing something better, like how Percy was blinded by authority and was .. well he was Percy, i know he changed afterwards but as i said it depends which timelines we are talking about. Bill is just so talented, relaxed and with his own personality that it all comes naturally to him, Hermione as well and so on. And we all know that Hermione was innovative, she created S.P.E.W and had her own ideas. Bill had a long hair, boots and earing, his mom wanted to cut his hair and he said no, now imagine if that was Percy tied to old habits and authority, all he would say is "Yes mother, thank you". I apologize if i spelled something wrong, i am not checking the quotes on google, im saying all of this from memory, have a good day.

Edit: Just to reinforce, please lets stop comparing muggles to wizards so often, they are so different from each other. Wizards with small communities and numbers should try harder to be even better, while muggles with their vast number of families dont need to, the probability of someone innovative being born is much higher. For example: If every 50 years just one great mind is born in the wizarding world with, lets say 1000 families, imagine how many great minds would be born in the muggle world with millions and millions of families (By "World" i mean one country or within the same government for both cases). So there is just little sense to compare both so often. And then again, it all goes down to my previous arguments that Witches and Wizards should forget most of their old habits and invent new stuff, and that one of the main reasons why there is not much innovation is because of old people and old costumes, everything is just "old". They constantly refer to "Old Wizarding Families", "This rat has been in our family for generations", "You can trace down my family 9 generations and you will see that my blood is as pure as any", and etc ..

 

Yep, but that sort of attack is frowned upon at best, and illegal at worst. Not everyone is willing to go through such lenghts, especially regarding to love potions or harmful hexes/jinxes.

So there are wizards innovating and creating new methods of using magic, the Weasley twins and Snape being examples of this. So, it's not lack of innovation but rather what those creative people are willing to share with the rest of the world. Snape for one kept his creations close to chest, Fred and George used them for profit.

Being a Prefect wasn't the reason Percy acted the way he did in the books. He was a social alpinist. He worked hard to have the necessary grades for a high position in the Ministry, and such a position was a plus in his curriculum. It implies that he was responsible and talented individual.

 

First off I would just like to take a moment and acknowledge the thought and effort put into these questions. You have shown me the limitations in my own perception of the wizarding community and their familial affiliations.

Yes, often times we do consider the cultural differences betwixt the wizarding and muggle communities. The argument often comes down to magic creating a conveinience for the average wizard for centuries that was definitely not afforded to the muggle comunitiy, hence the floo stystem versus airplanes, and aparation and brooms versus cars. But these considerations are rather superficial.

Family, we'd assume as Muggles ourselves, would be rather important considering that there'd be more of them alive at the same time. But I belive it's not wholy dependent on how many generations reside in the living world.

Haven't you ever heard of a family feud? What about the Blacks? Plenty of them were alive, but they obvious did not all communicate well. I'd think that with more family alive there would be more differing opinons and more chance for family disputes. It truly depends on the people and moral values of a given clan.

And then there was talk about the wonderful animated portraits of the deceased members. I belive there has been plenty of talk in this fandom's fanfiction about the Malfoy portraits, especially in reguards to helping out various characters in the fanfics themselves. One should take into consideration the expense that must be behind the oil and acrylic paintings. Especially before the camera was created in the muggle world and then introduced thereafter into the wizarding world. Someone mentioned the Weasley's, a notoriously poor group of people; do you think that in the 18th century they would have possesed the funds to have each dying family member painted? Knowing how many offspring Molly Weasley managed to produce, one could only imagine the funds it would take to produce those paintings.

And not even taking into consideration the cost of preserving a family member in picture form, have you ever had an older family member who was just god awful and just down right evil? No? Well some of us have. And I can tell you that not all preserved family members would be welcomed on the walls and halls of family homes. Would you want a bitter aunt battering at you about your weight everytime you stepped inside the front door?
I know I most definitely would not.

So the togetherness of a family, wizarding or otherwise, is not measure by the generations alive, but the character of the people within the family and the relationships themselves. Time, and the abundance of it, have little to no relevance in the quality of a family's ties.

 

Yes being a prefect is not the problem, the problem is what he did to get there and how he acted. Anyway i give up, either i cant explain myself properly or no one else can interpret my arguments. I thought more people here would have a deeper understanding of Harry Potter. I already shared a few of my ideas, so do what you want with that. Our debate might help someone else in the future. May the force be with you.

 

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that no one here has a 'deeper understanding of Harry Potter', just after you claim that you maybe have the inability to explain yourself properly.

 

I think something that may have been overlooked at times is that just before the Harry Potter series began the wizarding world was recovering from a second major Dark Lord. Its never stated quite how many either Grindelwald or Voldemort killed but we can assume a rather large chunk of the previous generations. This leaves fewer wizards, thus a more enclosed society threatened by a higher ratio of muggle-borns to traditionalists. You also might consider that some of the blood ideals are in an attempt to honour the deceased and promote what people expect their views to have been. When a society is always looking back to what could have been then past ideas become vogue again.

 

'Threatened' by a higher muggleborn to traditionalists ratio?

And didn't Salazar Slytherin leave behind the Chamber of Secrets and a goddamned Basilisk to help his descendants kill mudbloods? Blood ideals probably existed long before Grindelwald and Voldemort.

Even if you label off CoS as the works of a twisted old loony, the war with Grindie and Voldie couldn't have been the only ones that killed off a large chunk of wizards- many of whom must have been muggleborns.

 

It never made clear in the books if Slytherin was truly a blood purist or even why the basilisk was left there. The monster of the chamber may have been a legend but we never know how accurate they are. If you believe half of Fanon then he hated muggles for their persecution of wizards and had nothing against muggleborns. If you subscribe to that then its not hard to argue the Basilisk is there to defend the school. Its known Tom Riddle took on the mantle of the heir of Slytherin and was supposedly a blood purist as were the Guants but we don't know if that is what Slytherin would have wanted. From the sixth book its kinda implied that the Guants took the whole blood purity to extremes and were insane.
Even if there were lots of muggleborns dying in the wars its still true that the number of Old Pureblood families will decline. Some will marry halfbloods or muggleborns and stop being pure and some will die. Its clear that for the most part Purebloods with the exception of the Weasleys tend to have only one or two children which further reduces their numbers. Every year fresh muggleborns arrive, they will keep coming and old families will keep declining.

 

Yes, but the wars with Grindelwald and Voldemort couldn't have been the only ones the wizarding world would have seen- even if we take pureblood supremacy as a way of purebloods honouring the dead, it must have existed for a long time.

Binns says that reliable historical sources state that Slytherin wished to be more selective about the students, that he believed magical learning should be kept in all-magic families. Doesn't sound like much of a myth.

 

Whatever

^This argument ends here. The rest of you, carry on with the discussion. Have fun, don't be childish, and wash your hands after your slap-fighting - Nuhuh

 

I wonder how wizards' parents answer questions about schooling when asked by muggle relatives. I know my family (at least) spends a lot of time discussing what we're learning in school with our relatives, and I wonder how the parents cover for their kids.

Maybe they make stuff up?

 

Well, the obvious: "Boarding School for gifted students with super special courses no one understands"

I'd assume especially for Muggle parents of magical kids the Ministry provides some advices how to deal with the situation.

And if you mean a full fledged Wizard family, then it's possible, or even likely, that they don't have that many contacts with Muggle relatives. Think of Ron's squib Uncle Bilius no one really talks about.