Nukes become null and void when they don't know where to hit, or if the target can fucking apparate to the other side of the state in one jump! And even though this thread is about the hypothetical situation in which Muggles attack Wizards/Wizards attack Muggles, I really don't think it's going to even happen.

The MoM changed a call from the POTUS to the UK PM on a whim, and as such, it is very much plausible that the war never takes off the ground. If it does though, it would not end in a side clearly winning. If a side does win though, it would be the wizards.

Please do not mistake the above comment as to me saying the wizards will exterminate all muggles. That would be impossible.

And then there's the fact that wizards are very much aliens to the muggle world.

On one side, muggles have the technology to bombard entire cities and states. But realistically speaking, they are never going to do that without evacuating the entire areas. Next, even though muggles have the ability to bombard cities, they will never even know as to where the wizards are due to charms such as the Fidellius and the Unplottable Charm, hence nulling the effects of bombardment as the muggles won't know where to hit.

Muggles are fucking stupid.

Does anyone not notice the fact that several families are going through the wall in King's Cross? Wizards are not up-to-date with technology yes, but muggles aren't that great either i.e. failing to notice the Knight Bus, or the fact that there is a whole island of prisoners no one has ever taken to talk about.

Next thing is that we know that magic interferes with technology, and hence wizards could pop into broadcast stations and news outlets and simply make the technology malfunction, causing wide disarray.

TL;DR All of this proves that the Wizards are very likely to win the war (But are definitely not going to exterminate the muggles completely) but I disgress, the main point is that the war is never going off the ground.

Toodles.

 

Holy damn, it's impossible to believe such a level of hypocrisy and ignorance exists.

First off, no one here is disregarding muggle competency. No one here says that muggles are idiots who can't notice magical stuff going around them, as various characters believe in the books. On the other hand, those who support the muggle "side" constantly diminish wizard abilities.

"unity amongst the wizarding population of magical britain"? they have unity, it's called the Ministry, and in regards to muggles, it manages splendidly - the muggles haven't found out about the wizards, after all. Which means that either muggles are the idiots wizards believe them to be, or that the Ministry Obliviators are pretty fucking competent. "they require unity amongst the wizarding population of the entire magical community" it's called the ICW, and they don't seem to have many disagreements.

In other words, both unity and competency are things strongly supported by canon. The wizards don't need to assemble some "war crew" - they are already doing exactly that, Obliviating muggles and manipulating the muggle government so a war never breaks out.

"that you can only apperate to places that you have been before and don't have apperation jinxes" - Ah yes, I'm sure that muggles are going to develop apparition jinxes willy nilly. And it's not like wizards have been in many places during their lives and can apparate to those they remember, right?

"Some people would read that and conclude that owners of large magical pets such as hippogriffs are few and far between due to the stringent requirements, and said legislation is supposed to restrict just anyone from buying such a pet." - Yes, some people like you, who are looking for every shred of possible evidence to discredit wizards.

"because being really good with wands means they have no excuse for their economical situation if magic is as casually usable as this thread is arguing" - the fact that you don't understand magical economy (and justly so, since Rowling doesn't elaborate on it, and probably hadn't thought deeply about it) does not mean that every good can be easily manufactured at home.

""Advanced computer science", lmfao. I learnt both of those in secondary school, though to be fair a) CS was compulsory" - Well that's nice. I don't know where you live, but in my country we didn't study computer science, it was only an elective in high-school, and you were allowed to choose only one elective. Certainly not something the average citizen studied, not a core subject. Unlike DADA and Charms.

"Not to mention that there's zero proof that Crabbe and Goyle performed Disillusionment charms on themselves."

Goyle might be an idiot, but he's not a braggart, and he used the word "we".

 

I think in a head to head battle wizards would win easily. But when it comes to full out war the muggles would win.

Firstly Muggles have computers. They can process massive amounts of data. This would give them an edge when it comes to strategising and organising. More importantly, the majority of wizards have no idea about muggle technology. Sure there would be the odd muggle born who could warn them, but based on what we've seen in the books, the Ministry wouldn't listen.
This means that Muggles could possibly even use satellites to collect information. In the books most wizarding properties have muggle-repelling wards. But it is impossible to make large areas completely invisible to muggles, much less to a powerful machine that they have no idea exists. So muggles could easily find wizarding hotspots. From there it would be a simple matter to bomb the wizards remotely.

Onto the subject of bombs(nuclear as well as normal). I think bombs would be effective against wizard, especially in a sudden aerial attack. The wizards wouldn't really have time to defend themselves and even if they did I'm not sure how effective it would be. To defend against nukes would require huge amounts of energy powering the shields, which wizards just aren't capable of. Maybe some wards(like hogwarts wards) could protect against them temporarily, but eventually they would be overcome.

I'm not sure how effective guns would be though. On one hand we haven't seen harry defend against many physical attacks, much less a super fast ball of metal. But it is highly likely there are spells that could shield against physical attacks.

Now onto what the wizards have going for them. As I said in a head to head combat the wizards would win. But would they win in a war? Firstly a wizard could apparate into any secure muggle compound as long as they know where it is, and disguise themselves as muggles. They could use legilimency to gather intelligence(or they could use veritaserum) and they can use the imperious to destroy the muggles from the inside.

I think that the muggles would still win because the wizards would underestimate the muggles. I dont think they would be smart and use the above methods, as they wouldn't really think of the muggles as much of a threat. Atleast, not untill it is too late. But muggles would have no such problem. Their fear would drive them to quickly and efficiently gather intel and nuke the wizards to oblivion. Therefore I believe muggles would win in a war.

 

Can I just say I'm fucking tired of seeing satellites brought up? A satellite is essentially a camera in space. Muggles have been taking pictures of London on the ground for a long time and so far, they haven't discovered Diagon Alley. Ergo, magic can fool cameras. Ergo, satellites will do fuck all. The basilisk melted Colin's camera. I think we can safely assume something like Diagon Alley, Hogwarts or Azkaban is protected by magic that won't be thwarted by a camera.

Or maybe satellites can see Hogwarts, but muggles looking at pictures of it can't? Result is the same. Muggles won't find Hogwarts.

Muggles vs wizards is a conflict between aliens and humans who can't even find the aliens.

And the whole "energy" thing is just a different name for exhaustible magic, i.e. magical cores, which has been proved don't exist.

 

How would they gain this intel? Entire areas don't have to be invisible in order not to be seen. Otherwise, the muggles would have already noticed places like Diagon Alley casually appearing in the centre of london.

How do you track someone who can just disappear right in front of you? Magic also destroys any electric-powered technology, meaning you can't even plant anything onto a wizard or anywhere where there is magic.

The rest has already been mentioned at some point, so I'll leave it to you to figure out

 

Firstly, I'll acknowledge that you may be right. But lets think about this for a second. The satellites are way to far for magic to screw with them(as it would for normal tech). It is possible that satellites can't see magical zones at all. But another possibility is that the muggles can see the wizards but don't let the general population know about them. We know that the Muggle PM knows about wizards, so we can assume most head of states know about wizards, meaning it is possible for the government to be censoring knowledge of wizards.

Also ScottPress suggested that satellites can see wizarding structures but muggles looking at the pictures dont see it. I find this highly unlikely. If the satellite can see the area the muggles should be able to as well. I mean a if the picture is take, how would they not be a able to see it? The picture is converted to pixels on a screen. So unless magic can travel through a satellite, into a picture and onto a screen, I don't see how once a picture is taken, the muggles can't see it.

 

Anyone with an internet connection can look at a satellite image of London with Google Earth. Unless we expand the conspiracy to hide magic to every techie and manager at Google, as well as dozens of other nations/companies who have taken satellite images of the city, it just doesn't make sense that having a camera in orbit would make it able to pick up magical areas.

 

IIRC, in HBP the Ministry had a call from POTUS to the PM delayed just so Fudge could meet with the PM at his convenience. I'm sure there are contingencies in place to neutralize (perhaps memory charm) muggle heads of state in countries which care about upholding the Statute of Secrecy.

About satellites: it's not about the magic in pixels. It's about the magic affecting muggles, which magic can single out conceptually, because HP magic is based on concepts and symbols. Besides, the Fidelius Charm exists and it can conceal information.

Anything the muggles could use to gain an advantage, wizards can counter. Muggles can't counter many things wizards can do.

 

You know, it occurs to me that Diagon Alley may be hidden by a Fidelius Charm that has had the original secret keeper die. It would effectively make everyone who has been taken to Diagon Alley into a secret keeper as well, which would in turn mean that if you don't have someone to show you it (i.e. a wizard), you can't get even find it to get inside.

 

Wow I never though of that, but it sounds like a legit possibility. How does a foreign wizard find diagon alley without a guide?

 

Simple answer: They don't.

 

I always thought that was the various world leaders just ensuring that the "True" images don't get put onto Google Maps or whatever other programs there are.

Didn't Tom Riddle get to Diagon Alley by himself?

 

Dumbledore told him where it was, with directions from the orphanage to it and instructions to ask for Tom the barman.

 

Is that actually such an outlandish idea, considering that the conspiracy to keep magic hidden involves the likes of Dudley Dursley?

Personally I don't get why they're supposed to be at odds anyway. The Muggle world is well aware of the magical world. Unless someone like Voldemort is involved and in that case you'd have the Ministry and/or Order-type vigilantes helping. Then again I think the Statute of Secrecy is outdated trash, so maybe it's just me.

 

Why do you think this? The books kind of left me with the opposite idea.

 

Well, the big shots like the Prime Minister seem to be in the loop, so the muggle world is aware of the wizarding world at some level. What they do with this information, however, is pure speculation.

 

Well, for each muggleborn there's their entire family that's "in the know", and as seen in the case of Vernon, even their extended family. The same is likely to be true for every halfblood.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were at least twice as many muggles aware of magic that there are wizards. Whether you count that as "well aware" or not is another thing.

 

You're mistaken. Only the immediate family know. Aunt Marge only found out when she got turned into a weather balloon, but was swiftly obliviated afterwards.

 

Vernon knew about magic prior to the books starting though, at which point he could have been considered extended family himself from a certain POV. Not that I think there are legions of family members all in the know, mind.

 

Depends on your definition of extended family then, I guess. For the purposes of the Statute I suspect that a sibling and their partner would count as immediate family.