I have a hard time believing that muggles don't know about wizards. Rowling didn't bother dealing with the myriad ways in which friction could result between the two societies, and from what we know of the magical world, there's bound to be informational leaks.

Every square foot of land in England belongs to the Queen and is accounted for at the land registry offices. Muggle repulsion wards are not sufficient to insulate wizards from an inquiry into just why some homes are not paying taxes or why there are gaps in the cartography. Surely some halfway intelligent bureaucrat has to be inquiring into this. Not to mention land developers. Somebody's going to want the land that Malfoy manor is situated on, and having their lackies come back with the excuse, "I couldn't investigate that because I had a sudden need to pee," is hardly going to hold up to divisional managers or executive officers.

With a bit of probing and some electronic surveillance, muggles are going to generate enough evidentiary material to overcome the inertia of disbelief regarding the existence of magic. What they do when they've realized magic exists is another question.

Then again, I also have trouble believing that England would have a long history of leaders that are so stupid they wouldn't make it a priority to gauge the threat potential of a society that lives on their doorstep. I suppose if you want to stick to pure canon, then you have to assume that muggles are just as moronic, complacent and shortsighted as magical folk. Ergo, in a purely canon world, muggles would be slaughtered.

 

Assume you're an average level wizard. Can you spot the sniper in this photo without help?


No? How about this one? This time with help.



Snipers are masters of hiding, infiltration and assassination, if need be. These photos prove my point. That man in the photo would, if you're an enemy, already have a bullet in your head and be gone by the time someone comes to investigate. Not to mention the fact that the AVERAGE sniper can hit a man between the eyes from 500 meters.

 

Ghille suits are the shit especially for stealth.Don't forget they can eat bugs to survive the wilderness.

 

The only way to decide this is with logic, so I shall try to analyse the original concept of a wizard vs. muggle duel.

1. Both items would take about the same time to draw.

2. The average time to pull the trigger of a gun is less than a second.

3. An incantation and movement for a spell would take considerably longer. For convenience sake, let's say one and a half seconds.

4. As it takes less time to pull a trigger, than to perform a spell, it can be logicaly assumed that the muggle would fire first.

5. Assuming the bullet hits, the wizard would be stunned by the injury, probably ending the spell.

6. Muggle finishes duel with kill shot.

7. The amount of energy needed to stop the bullet (assuming the wizard got a shield up in time) can be calculated by math:

The bullets force is equal to its mass times its acceleration (Newton's 2nd law).

A .357 round is approxamitly 0.0149 kg and would be accelerating would be about 440000 m/s/s. The force of this is 6556 J.

According to Newton's third law, the force the shield would need to exert on the bullet would be the same. Assuming that magic requires some energy from the user, that would mean every time the sheild is hit, the wizard would lose a massive amount of energy, if the shield isn't destroyed.

QED

Note: bullet masses and accelerations were obtained from http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/MichaelTse.shtml if someone would like to check my work.

 

Hesuse Christe, you are thinking like a muggle:

1. Wizards can charm themselves to be invisible, to not attract attention, to spell their clothes to be impervious/create ward around themselves BEFORE going into the dangerous situation.

2. Wizards can use Legilimency, and therefore, they will ALWAYS be faster then muggle.

3. Bringing physics arguments into the magic discussion is ridiculous.

 

Infrared imaging negates invisibility; mirrored sunglasses/contacts for legillemancy; Magic, while being fairly unknown, still must follow rules like else and the laws of motion, energy, and momentum are quite universal. Also, on the legilimancy, knowing what your opponent is doing does not make you faster.

 

You are making one huge assumption here. I must have missed the part in the books where it said magic follows Newton's laws or any laws of physics for that matter.

Infrared imaging negates invisibility - and how do you know that? used an invisibility charm lately?

Magic, while being fairly unknown, still must follow rules like else and the laws of motion, energy, and momentum are quite universal - that's intresting... like to explain the flying car part from CoS, I'm sure my physics proffesor would love to hear it. How about the polyjuice potion? or Hermione's short adeventure as a cat? Maybe you'd like to explain the invisible horses that arent invisible any longer after you see somebody die. I'd love to hear you explain by sound physics.

Magic is as the word says MAGIC it isnt logical and isnt supposed to be, not by our newtonian laws anyway. We have only been introduced to a small part of magic, saying that only what you've seen so far is all there is is an assumption aswell, and quite probably a wrong one.

 

Not all wizards can/know how to do those things.

Any method of invisibility can be countered. You can't duel from underneath an Invisibility cloak without at least part of you showing. They are also susceptible to exposure tactics like being hit with paintballs or any other marking agent. Same goes for Disillusioning spells (which don't even make you completely invisible). Furthermore, the only wizard we've seen (allegedly) using an invisibility 'spell' without the aid of a cloak is Dumbledore. Presumably the average wizard neither knows how to perform this spell, nor has the power to use it. Also, there are things like FLIR (infrared) to be considered. An invisible person still gives off heat...

And just how invisible are you when using these spells/devices? How do we know that a special set of filtered lenses won't allow you to see them? Or maybe if they're hit with a blacklight, etc.
For all we know, a simple pair of five dollar, polarized sunglasses will make these wizards partially visible again.

Because of their lack of exposure to/experience with/knowledge of muggle technology, the wizards wouldn't know about that kind of thing. For all they know, they might be marching into combat wearing 'The Emperor's New Clothes'.

I somehow doubt the impervious charm was made for bulletproofing objects but ignoring that for the moment, these spells are all going to have to be applied when combat is imminent, not hours before hand. Why? Because, surely, they don't last all day. Eventually the energy you put into them will run out and you don't want that happening in the middle of a fight. So if a wizard is layering a spell to disillusion himself, a spell to mask his heat signature, a spell to make his clothes bulletproof, etc... He's going to be magically exhausted before the fight ever starts. Also, we don't know if you can layer spells like that without some kind of bad reaction.

Every form of bullet-'proof' clothing has an opening. Not only that, making clothing so that bullets can't penetrate it, doesn't mean that the wearer won't feel the impact (unless you add on a spell for THAT too). That impact causes bruising, injuries... and it stuns you, leaving an opening for your opponent to move in for the kill. If your hypothetical wizard stops to cast a shield spell (which needs to be maintained, you can't just set it and go on about your business) then how can he cast offensive spells?

And, once again, layering all of these spells on one wizard is nothing short of ridiculous. Like I said earlier: "It would be like a party of D&D characters layering a bunch of buffing spells before going into a dungeon." I just don't see JKR's wizards doing this or even being capable of it. Certainly not 95% of the wizarding world.

Also, I hate to say it but... wards would appear to be a product of fanfiction, not canon.

Finally, if Legilimency and Occlumency are so common, why was Snape the only one (other than Dumbledore) who could teach Harry? Security can't be the reason, because any other Order member could have been trusted. Since there are a number of aurors in the Order, we must assume that they don't know the Mind Arts either. If aurors, especially high-ranking ones like Shacklebolt, aren't capable Occlumens/Legilimens, we must assume that hardly any aurors at all are.
That makes the Mind arts very rare among the canon wizarding populace; too rare to be a considerable factor in widescale combat. It might play a part in 'Special Ops' forays by wizards like Dumbledore and Snape, sure, but you can't say that every magical person, from Madam Malkin and Florean Fortescue to auror Dawlish and 'Joe Average', is going to be using Legilimency. In the vast majority of muggle/wizard fights, the Mind Arts would not be a factor. We aren't going to see rows and rows of wizards and witches with a twinkle in their eyes, staring down armed soldiers.

EDIT: And I see that, while I was typing, a number of people touched on the same ideas I did.

Couldn't you be asked the same question?

And you can claim to know what makes magic 'magic'?
Anyway, in any war, there will always be people willing to spill their own side's secrets. You can't tell me for one second that Hermione wouldn't help the muggles find mundane foils for magical weapons, especially if the wizards were the aggressors in the war.


Note: This thread is rapidly eliminating the competition for 'Geekiest Debate Ever'. Of course, I AM a geek so...

 

I see this opinion quite often and for the life of me I can't image why. How can you fight something you can't even begin to understand? The simple fact that some people on this forum fail to grasp just what makes magic ... well magic proves it

I can't even begin to understand what Magic really is, that's why i'm not using newtonian logic and physics on it.

What Hermione does or doesen't is quite simply irrelevent. Hermione can't give muggles magic and it end there. We know electronics of any kind wont work with magic so studying magic by analizing it wouldnt work. The best Hermione could do is fight with muggles which isnt nearly enough.

Every magical meeting place is warded against muggles, so they cant even see, how can you attack something when magic tells you to look away.

 

Actually I can't stand slash.

A bit lacking on the debating skills eh? How about if a magic shield can block a cruise missle? How about a nuke? As long as we're talking about magic there is no reason to say that magic couldn't do something.

Magic is magic so it doesen't nor should respect our laws of physics.

 

I concur.

Just so you know, mine goes to +11 for when I need that extra push over the cliff.

I'm going to take a wild stab and assume that what Surarrin meant by his Mpreg reference, was that you can't just say 'Magic can do anything because it's magic'.
Not only would this thread be a lot shorter if that were to be the case, but it implies support of the notion that ANY ridiculous thing is possible, simply because 'magic is magic'. For instance, ludicrous concepts like Mpreg.
If we can agree that Mpreg is silly, stupid and not possible, even with magic, then we must concede that magic is not capable of doing everything and anything. Like resurrecting Harry's parents, for instance.

 

Besides the muggles have a secret weapon...Global Warming. Let's see you flame freeze that. On a side note: Cobra, judging from your post count, did you register just to attack my ideas, or are you cupping? If so, I thank you for taking the effort to do so.

 

What does magic have to do with *shudders* THAT.

Also magic seems to have a limited range, something muggles don't:

Wizard B: Hmm... there is a muggle on that hill. Avada Kedevara. Oops, missed.
*Wizard B is torn to pieces by automatic gun fire*

A shield requires energy to maintain. If a outside force is straining the shield, more energy is required to maintain the shield. Nuclear fusion causes a LOT of strain. Where the hell are they going to get all the energy to maintain it? Magic. Pfft.

 

Calling others lacking on debating skills while you yourself are using a stupid and illogical argument of "magic being magic and can do everything" is not only just idiotic, it's hypocritical. Don't insult others for your very own shortcomings either.

And in response to your hermione post, hermione can actually do a lot. She can actually work on the inside, attacking wizarding areas by using imperius and other spells to do damage. All it takes is one wizard/witch to cast imperius and cause havoc by planting bombs and AKing others too. Not all bombs are electronical in nature (fertilizer bombs).

Also, just an idea i just got. If an area ONLY has muggle repelling wards, does the ward also extend inside the area or is it just external prevention? If it's just external intervention, can't a wizard/witch just stun muggle soldiers and bring/drag them inside then wake them, letting them loose to attack? That would hypothetically get rid of the location problem among others.

 

No actually he resorted to personal attacks, that's why I said he's lacking debating skills.

Well if it's idiotic would you like to explain to me exactly how magic works within the boundries of newtonian physics? Since obviously you decided magic respects the laws of physics that means magic is real, since the laws are quite real.

My argument isnt hypocritical, it's common sense. Even the little magic that we do see in the books quite obviously doesen't respect the laws of physics. So why exactly do you think magic is limited by them?

The shock wave would simply bounce of the shield and go around. The wizard doesen't need to know what they are, they just need to know they are bad.

And again those superior debating skills, did you take classes?

I never said Magic can do everything, we know of at least one thing it can't do. It can't bring back the dead, there might be other similar limitations to magic, but I don't think physics is one of them.

How about if the wizard summons the gun first? Or in fact summons all the guns in the area first? We know that the Summoning Charm doesen't require aiming, hell it doesen't require even knowing where the thing you want is, as Molly shows us at the Burrow.

Saying that the AK is the only spell that does damage is naive, quite probably there are spells that have wide area effect. Didnt Pettigrew kill 13 muggles with one curse? Just because we haven't see any doesen't mean they dont exist.

 

I've highlighted the parts of your theory that don't add up.

3. You are, probably deliberately, ignoring the existence of non-verbal incantations. The time it takes to think a word is the time it takes for a neural impulse to be sent: a fraction of a second, much quicker than the time it takes to pull a trigger.

Secondly, Newton's third does not apply - magic is there to break these rules, and the existence of such charms as the impervious, which works the same for different objects at different speeds, shows that an equal and opposite force isn't needed.


As for those saying that layering spells would tire out a wizard, or sustaining protection spells for a long time would tire out a wizard: name one instance in canon where a wizard has been tired out by doing this. I can provide evidence for my side: every Christmas, Flitwick levitates hundred of candles in the Great Hall, for days on end, to no ill effect.

A single skilled wizard could take out an entire country's Muggle population: he could imperious all the members of the cabinet (thinking UK here) and make them make decisions that would result in the deaths of millions; he could go to each water plant in the country and pour a load of sleeping potion into a whole country's water supply, thereby sending a whole country in sleep, possibly eternal sleep. The only reason why a wizard can't do this is because there are other wizards stopping them; if all wizards were in agreement that it should be done then a single wizard could do all this.

 

Magic is by it's nature illogical, mostly because as far as we know it, magic isn't real. Second reason being that because of the first reason, writers generally don't bother creating a system of magical theory with all it's shortcomings, possibilities and limitations. The prime reason for the limitations to exist is so there can be a story in the first place, to make fantasy more "real"
Because of the fallacies of something so fundamentally basic as the question, how powerful is magic? cannot be answered unless Rowling pulls up some half cracked answer out of her ass. In which case we'd have to assume that as absolute truth in the potter fanverse.

As even the educational standard of the common wizard is of dubious quality I'm under the assumption that there HAS to be something other than the trivial shyte Harry, a mostly average student is explaining to us the readers. Basically university magic. Once again I blame the book being as it is, we aren't shown how spells are created, how wizards discovered the spells. How a spell is channelled be it will, emotion, some inner power or whatnot. All in all, considering what I've seen so far the average wizard truly has the intelligence span of a teapot.

[ Pet peeve: OWLS and NEWTS. In muggle schools the issue in regards to your final grades aren't the amount of subjects you pass. It's how well you pass the subjects you take. Maybe wizards truly are retarded but the educational standard in the most prestigious school of Hogwarts, seems to be horrible. Okay so if you're not magically powerful (fanon?) enough or for whatever reason can't get top marks in the practical application, atleast you can sit down and get atleast Acceptable in the theoretical! ]

I'm theorizing here using logic which some say can't be applied because magic is... magic! Well screw you guys!

1) Requirements We don't know if magic requires some inner source of magic points/mana/sparkly dust or if it is purely intent/focus based or even something more esotheric like magical channels inside your or something. Let's say everyone can do anything given proper intent and focus. Then given the right mindset and concentration everyone can become a Dumbledore or Voldemort, the only thing missing is the knowledge. And magic being magic can just as well boost someone's mental capacity and thus the system breaks down because there are no limitations and everyone can do whatever the hell they want. This right there is a limit to magic. Whatever form it comes in, magic is limited or else say.. every powerhungry politician (apparently 99% in the wizarding world) would have the power of a Dumbledore as the motivation would surely be there while others, just might not give a damn as they don't have to (apathy!).
So by the power of deduction we've come to the conclusion that wizards have a limit as to how they control magic. Now if magic itself has no limits or is close to limitless is irrelevant. Human wizards cannot do whatever they fancy simply because that would destroy the plot.

2) Magic has thus a time limit. It could be because the inherant magicalness in the spell runs out with time, or that one's concentration falters with time and so the spell as well. Whatever the case, people aren't running around with every single protective spell possible on them at all times, not even during combat it seems! This could have various reasons too of course. Maybe they're just that demanding to cast that even though they exist, you can't even cast them in battle which renders these spells utterly useless. Because if you could cast them, why the hell wouldn't you? If you could improve reflexes, aim, thought processing, luck, why wouldn't you? Then there's the simplest reason of them all, Rowling's just a kiddie book writer with no concept of "real" magical combat tactics. Let's for argument sake this world is real. The only logical conclusion would be that even going against muggles, wizards would not come prebuffed with whatever it takes, and even if they did buff themselves with whatever reflecting magical wizard armor +5, it wouldn't last. Repeat, because they aren't, I'm correctly assuming they can't. Only idiots would charge in to a fight missing something as fundamental as protective spells if possible.
Hence their reaction and subsequently action speed is equivalent to what a normal muggle can achieve.

3) Spell usage I can't repeat it enough, wizards are walking breathing idiots. Who in their right minds would ever cast dodgeable NON INSTANTANEOUS lightbeams (Whatever the carrier is that is transfering the power of the spell from the wand to the target through this coloured light is not pure light. As that would be near instant with absolutely no possibility of dodging. It could just as well be some slug.) which depend on such a non-dependable thing such as aim? As some have pointed out, unless magically enhanced (which we see no proof of as of yet) an unsuspecting wizard would stand no chance against a sniper. It is physically impossible to hold your hand so utterly still for long enough and have that hand-eye coordination to hit something at even a minor distance. Unless! there's some invisible spell you can use to create some kind of a target cross on your retina which is linked to your wand or whatever but that's just me trying to excuse their ways of fighting. In my mind transfiguration is the king of combat. Block an unforgiveable? Conjure/transfigure something in it's path. Pesky Potter doding too much? Transfigure the ground underneath him into hardening concrete/swamp/something! It's instant, can't be dodged, slows him down and you have all the time in your life to take a proper aim against a mostly still target. Psst.. if you still can't hit him, I have a tip, aim for his legs. Do you feel like killing lots? Well go nuts with your imagination here because you can do quite a lot. Within reasonable limits, see point 1, but say, transfigure some critical pillar in a building to jello and watch it fall! One spell, thousands of casualties in the case of sky scrapers! ZOMG! I mean which dark lord in their right mind use something as ineffective as avada kedavra? Your mouth would dry out before you manage to kill a muggle batallion. Considering point 2, as long as whatever it is you're attacking happens fast enough, the targetted wizard stands no chance of protecting himself. So to repel/vanish incoming missiles the point is moot, the wizard is dead. You can't target something that fast and that small with no warning. UNLESS! They have some form of a ward against that but canon says nothing about how wards work unfortunately.

4) Shielding vs jinxes, hexes, curses The wizards seem to have a few all purpose shields. I can't remember the application of shield strength vs hits taken was ever discussed in canon but considering point 1 and 2, nothing can have infinite strength. Not even canon magic once again refering to point 1. So it stands to reason that given enough power a magical shield will vanish if enough offensive spells hit it. This difference is measurable. And from this you can thus gleam the true nature of offence and defence in the magical world. If it's related to powerlevels, or "shots absorbed" or something else. Whatever it's nature, it's identifiable, quantifiable and furthermore within the possibilities to be countered. Less feasible but probably also possible to find out what makes an AK unblockable with magical shields.

Curiosa; If a high concentration of magic was to shortcut electrical devices as is the case in canon, wouldn't it be thusly possible that the reverse was to be true as well? That magic would shortcut near an electrical generator? Wouldn't that be a blast? Put Voldemort in a cage near a generator and poke him with long sticks.

Just repeating once more, I'm basing everything on point 1. That magic has a limit, if not for logical reasons then for plot reasons. Everything else is just a deduction.

Apologies for miss spellings and whatnot.