Where am I talking about a punishment or holding a grudge? Breaking with someone doesn’t mean that you want to punish this person. It just mean that you don’t want to be with this person. It is a way of moving on with your life. Also, I don’t deny that Hermione is not a saint and I would not mind if Hermione had got some development too. Not at all.

He matured so much. Yeah, that’s must be why he left Harry and Hermione in the middle of nowhere in DH. And before you say that it was because of a Horcrux locket, yes he wear it, so did Harry and so did Hermione and they didn’t leave. In DH Ron is still dealing with his insecurities and jealousy, he is still unable to control his emotions.

I don’t deny that he has good qualities, but at the same time he is very immature. His problem solving strategies, which don’t solve anything really and just make things worse, are out of kindergarten. He is unable to control his emotions, which causes him to have more major conflicts with his best friends than Harry and Hermione have together, if you don’t count their conflicts with Ron. In DH we see that Ron really didn’t change so much, he is still jealous and insecure, though it seems that he may have gotten a bit better after that incident of leaving them, but returning to my point. Being with him is like being on an emotional swing and looks kind of masochistic to me. I mean, generally people, unless they are masochist, want to feel good in their relationship. Spend time nicely with the person they love and so on. I don’t think they are looking for conflicts, problems and someone who is able to leave them in the middle of nowhere, because he has another fit of anger/whatever that he or she cannot control, which is what Ron’s shortcomings cause. I seriously doubt that people are looking for someone who can let them down or hurt them often, because of his or her issues and immaturity, which is why I think it would be better if Ron overcome his issues first and then got together with Hermione, because DH makes it clear that those three months in HBP were not enough.

 

My point was that you seemed to be thinking that Hermione forgave Ron quickly and undeservedly relationship-wise. I was merely pointing out that is not the case. Do you agree that being angry for over 3 months and then only speaking again after the other person nearly died is not considered very quickly?
You acknowledged Hermione did not behave very well either, so why is it not possible for them to just admit to each other they both behaved badly and have another go at starting a relationship especially as there are lots of positives that will come out of it?

This actually does not directly respond to all the points I brought up arguing that Ron has matured but I will respond to it and I would like you to respond to my point directly as well (quoted in response to your next argument).
Yeah, I know you are going to bring up Ron[FONT=&quot]'s supposed abandonment in DH like all the other haters/detractors out there[/FONT]. Firstly he did not abandon Hermione; he wanted her to go with him as his girlfriend. It was Hermione who turned him down. Secondly no the Horcrux is not the only defence I have for Ron here even though I find your argument that just because Harry and Hermione did not leave rather unimpressive. Even if they are better at resisting the temptations of the Horcrux this does not automatically mean Ron is a treacherous or immature friend. It may only mean that the other 2 is exceptionally strong-willed. It is similar to saying that because Hermione got almost straight Os in her OWLs it automatically makes Ron a terrible student even though he received mostly Es in the OWLs.
My main point though is that Ron has huge burdens that the other 2 don’t have through no fault of his own. For example, he alone was splinched and almost killed when they escaped from the Ministry. He also had the most to lose by going on this quest. This is because 1) Unlike his best friends, he can go back Hogwarts and enjoy a relatively comfortable life despite the oppression because he is pure-blood and 2) His family will likely be targeted, tortured and killed if the Death Eaters ever found out that he was helping Harry Potter (he has been worrying about his family ever since the war started making him a pretty easy target for the Horcrux, this is a HUGE turnoff). Also before he left Harry already told him three times literally to “go home” (instead of talking the legitimate issues through rationally like Hermione tried to do) which is something a leader should never say to his followers. So in summary, he was not thinking of leaving himself, but Harry goaded him into doing it (why could he not react to a leader who seem to not care about him?). Yes, Ron does have a temper but he was mature enough to be able to recognise he was wrong right away, not something that can be said for everyone.
Finally I would not even classify Ron walking out in DH as leaving his friends. Remember he wanted to come back [FONT=&quot]the moment[/FONT] he Disapparated but he was prevented from doing so because he ran into some Snatchers. So it is more like getting away from the mess they were in and cool down for a few minutes and then come back which is not the same as abandonment. Could you make this distinction?

Everyone had jealous, insecure and bitter moments even if they might be hidden it is called being human. If you forgot Ron specifically overcame his jealousy and insecurity in DH when he stabbed the locket. It seems that your point is more about Ron as a person in general and not about his relationship with Hermione. Could you respond to my point that Ron has never showed jealousy of Hermione[FONT=&quot]'s academic success and has continuously praised her for her intelligence?[/FONT]

So you consider his good qualities like leading the team when Harry could not be bothered are really insignificant then? If not, why is it that you does not address them specifically?
I already addressed the immaturity point in an earlier post so I will just quote the relevant section for you. I would like to hear from you why these points are wrong or irrelevant as I already asked you a few times and you did not gave me an answer yet.

Huh? Could you give me some example of this in the books where his thinking or strategy actually let the team down or made things worse?

First of all, just because there is a conflict between Ron and someone else does not mean it is all Ron’s fault and you actually have to show how Ron was the one at fault in those conflicts. Harry had more than his fair share of blame especially in the fight in DH for example. Harry and Hermione also could not control their temper at times. Witness the capslock and moody Harry in OotP (does this count as conflict with you?), the woe-is-me attitude he had in OotP and DH, his awful words to Ron in their fight with DH while NOT wearing a Horcrux. As for Hermione, she yelled and shouted plenty of times at Ron and it is too long to list all the examples.
Even when Hermione was really angry at Ron when he returned in DH or when she said he was the most insensitive wart or had an emotional range of a teaspoon in OotP along with various other insults and he did not lose his temper. There is also the time when Harry threw a badge at him or when he continuously shouted at him in OotP and he did not fight back or yell at him even while Harry was taking credit for things where he had lots of help. What does this say to you?
If you are saying that they all lose tempers sometimes because they are depicted as real people then yes you are right. Do you agree?

He did change and mature a lot. At least you are able to acknowledge he got a bit better although I am not sure why you are downplaying the fact he was leading the team for 3 months when Harry decided to abandon the quest. Could you explain please?

Clearly Hermione does not and actually enjoys hanging around with him which is the main point. Your personal opinion which you seemed to have derived by downplaying all the good moments in their relationship means nothing compares with the textual evidence presented in the books.

Hermione is a very argumentative person and not just with Ron and Harry so I am not sure she is looking for a yes-man as a husband. Could it be that there are different types of relationships out there and none of them are better than others?
Other than that one example in DH during a hopeless camping trip which I already refuted earlier, could you give another example of Ron leaving Hermione or causing insurmountable problems other than when he was jealous of Viktor Krum?
These assertions are based on premises that are unfounded and where you ignored any counterexamples. Actually, his growth in HBP is sufficient for him to be in a healthy real-life long-term relationship with Hermione outside the war context which is what I am looking at here. I do not consider your one example in DH very relevant or a good reflection of what their life would be like after the war. This is because it is highly unlikely in real-life or outside the context of the war that a couple will have to go on a hopeless quest for months with a leader who had no plan and who has a tendency to be really reckless, have no food to eat, being frozen to death, cannot get into contact with their families who are all on the watched list of the evil regime and being hunted by the most evil dictator alive while continuously wearing a piece of his soul. I have not heard anything from you on the point that Ron is able to comfort Hermione, care for her (before that incident in DH), cause her to laugh or willing to die for her all of which is much more important in a long-term relationship then one incident in a context that will not be repeated again. It also perfectly refutes your baseless assertion of Ron willingly causing problems in a relationship.

 

This has always struck me as a 'first girl wins' or 'pair the spare' type of relationship. Their school days are dominated by their friendship and companionship with Harry, none of them appreciably expanded their friend group, so they just kind of got with the person closest to them. Since everything in the series orbits around Harry, they end up doing the same thing.

I don't hate the match like some do, but I agree with their primary criticism that their personalities and interests are very divergent and they don't really relate to others in the same ways. Ultimately it could work, but I wouldn't expect these people to last forever in the real world.

 

I agree their friends circle is rather closed off at school because of Harry and his tendency to get into dangerous situations either voluntarily or by chance, although this does not explain why Hermione ended up falling in love with Ron and not Harry. A part of my earlier post could help to explain this primary criticism.

 

Ok, you are free to feel Ron and Hermione’s relationship is entirely convincing, even though Rowling herself openly admitted that It was a choice I made for very personal reasons, not for reasons of credibility, and you are free to believe that there is nothing problematic about their relationship, because their love will conquer all and so on, but I am afraid that my opinion about love is too down-to-earth and it seems that Rowling has gained a more down-to-earth opinion about Ron&Hermione too, since she told that they may be fine if they got some marriage counseling and worked on their issues, which is basically admitting that their relationship is not the healthiest one.

 

Actually I do not claim that Ron and Hermione’s relationship is perfect or their love will conquer everything as you seem to be saying. I only said that their strong love for each other allows them to overlook a lot of faults with the other person and love is not about whether someone is “good enough” for you (which is a rather subjective concept anyway). Do you see the difference now?
I also do not simply believe what I want to believe. I use all the evidence from the books to try to come to a supported conclusion which is why I am not actually keen about all the canon couples.
My problem is that some people attack this relationship (or just Ron because he’s apparently not good enough for Hermione but it’s never the case the other way round) using a combination of irrelevant personal experiences, lies and/or half-truths. I am not talking about you personally, you be the judge as to how much this applies to you.
Do you take Rowling’s comment that seriously so that it trumps evidence presented in the books? For example, Rowling repeatedly said that Harry and Ginny are “soulmates” and yet there are many who are sceptical about this relationship because they made their own conclusion based on the novels themselves (personally I am not against that relationship even though I can see problems with it just like with Ron and Hermione’s).
If you want to talk about “reasons of credibility” about the books then romance is really not the best place to start and instead you should look at the main adventure plots in the books. For example, what is the chance that Harry escaped alive from his end-of-year adventures from year 1-4? Or the fact that none of the six teenagers were killed when there were fighting a dozen fully-trained Death Eaters in the Ministry? On a less grim note, how likely was it that all the complex wandlore stuff worked out to Harry’s advantage almost perfectly or that Voldemort and the Death Eaters made so many mistakes when they are supposed to be really cunning and ruthless? I could go on but you get the idea. My point is if this sort of strict logical conclusion is applied then the whole series would lose its credibility.
I read that whole interview and what I found is that Rowling seem to start off with some harsh words about their relationship (even though it would have been great if she provided some clear reasons as to why that’s the case) but then ended the interview on a rather positive for their relationship. However please note that Emma Watson apparently said in an Oscar interview shortly afterwards about it:

You probably should also consider the fact that in CC Ron and Hermione when not together in adult life are shown to be miserable.
It also feels that when I discuss Ron and Hermione’s relationship with detractors many of them have trouble justifying their points in detail. For example, you seemed to be implying that in your opinion their love is not down-to-earth and yet you could not provide any concrete reasons for it that I was not able to refute using examples and other evidence from the books. There were also the points that I brought up about how caring Ron was towards Hermione and how he was willing to die for Hermione that received no response.
If you have other points in favour of your opinion with strong supportive evidence from the books I will agree to them if I think you’re right. I actually do remain open to be convinced as I (hopefully) have shown when I agreed to some of your points during our discussion.

 

Ron x Hermione - at first I would say that this pairing disgusts me, but that's because the whole fanon and canon thing getting mixed up and reading bashing fics(guilty pleasure) in general. Now that I'm older and seen the light... 'Meh' sounds perfectly fine to me now.

They're not the best couple, but they work since we never see the parts where they're hanging out just by themselves without Harry along for the ride. Could they work out in real life? Of course they can. Can they break up as well and split up? Again, of course they can. Life's interesting like that.

I'd rather have them together instead of say... Draco/Hermione, or for that matter Harry/Hermione.

 

I didn’t respond to your each and every point, because I didn’t want the discussion to drag or go off -topic, especially since some of your points can be cleared after a minute of reflections, for example:

What did he want to achieve by kissing another girl in public when he liked another? To hurt her? What is that he wanted to achieve? How did it make his situation any better? Did he think through about it? I don’t think so. And just because plenty of teenagers do stupid and pathetic things, it does not make these things less stupid and pathetic. It only means that there are plenty of teenagers who do stupid and pathetic things.

Or this

So he wanted to go with Hermione and leave his best friend alone on a difficult mission. How exactly does it make Ron look any better?

I agree that Ron doesn’t behave immaturely in every situation and has a better side, but it doesn’t change the fact that he behaves very immaturely in certain situation. And I don’t think that Hermiona’s immaturity is on the same level. Sure she retaliates, but if someone doesn’t hurt her, she is considerate and doesn’t hurt people by her immature behavior like Ron. Her immaturity shows up most pointedly when Ron hurts her and angers her, which is precisely why I think she would be better off with someone more mature and considerate. To sum it up: is Hermione immature? Yes. Is her degree of immaturity the same as Ron? No.

I have never considered Rowling to be the best writer on earth and I agree with what you wrote, the thing I like the most about these books is Hogwart. The idea that somewhere in our world is a school where they teach you how to be a wizard is really nice. I don’t think that these books have the best plot nor do I think the characters and their development is great, since none of the main characters changes too much throughout these seven books. Not that I think it is terrible, but I have read books that handle character development/romance, etc. much better.

 

Yes, unfortunately it is very easy to forget what was written in canon when there are so many bashing fanfictions out there with characters whose only similarity with their canon counterparts are their names and maybe background. I am glad you see through that now.

I am not sure why you think my points are off-topic (if that is what you’re thinking) as the main discussion here seems to be whether Ron is “good enough” for Hermione and all my points are about the positive things he did for her as well as correcting the misleading assertions made about him. If I do make an off-topic point, could you point them out instead of ignoring them please? I will remove them if you’re right. I also believe as this is a discussion thread, it is acceptable for posters to support their arguments with evidence and quotes from the books. If you don’t want to try to rebut my points, fine, but I have to then assume my points are correct.

If you really think this way, it would be great if you could point what was wrong with my points with actual evidence from the books instead of just making a general sweeping statement that my points are wrong. Even if you can rebut some of my points (and I am not sure how many here since you only gave two), it does not change the fact that the other relevant and legitimate points stand.

I already said Ron’s behaviour is bad and stupid and that he didn’t think things through although it is not really as bad as you think it is (again, I made a post on it). I also said this does not preclude him from getting into a long-term relationship with Hermione after he grew up from that experience. Everyone makes mistakes and behaves badly, the key difference is do they grow from the experience?

I already answered his motivation in an earlier post so I’ll quote the relevant parts to you.

If he really was trying to hurt Hermione he would have been really happy when he saw Harry and Hermione in that empty class in Chapter 14 after he snogged Lavender in public instead of feeling awkward. Teenagers are not saints and lots of them do date people they do not have deep feelings for including Hermione and Ginny. What’s the big deal about teenagers having some ex-boy/girlfriends before they found their one true love? It’s perfectly possible to have some ex-partners and yet still be really happy in one’s true love.

It does in the context of Ron and Hermione’s relationship because it shows that Ron wants Hermione to be with him instead of leaving her. Our discussion here is not about Ron as a personal in general but specifically his relationship with Hermione. Couples do tend to expect their partner to follow their lead when they decided to do something and will be hurt and devastated when they think their partner rejects her.
You forgot he was really angry and hurt about the horrid things Harry said to him (like going home 3 times) so he reacted instinctively. If he doesn’t, he’s either a yes-man or a saint. You also still have not responded to everything else I said in defence of Ron here. Do you need me to quote it here?
Finally I am not sure why is this example so important especially for discussing their relationship after the war where they lived in peace and prosperity and not in constant fear of their lives.

Actually she has hurt people first like the Lovegoods when she dismissed their theories and offended them. There was also the time when Hermione ripped into Ron when he just made a few offhand remarks about Harry’s relationship with Cho.
Alright I will just have to provide the relevant quotes from earlier posts here then.

Are you suggesting that despite everything he did (I am assuming as you have not responded to them yet) he was still terribly immature? If so, do you have other examples of where he behaved immaturely after his relationship with Lavender was over?

Yes I agree with you Rowling could do a better job with her books in some areas and that Hogwarts setting is very well done even though there are some logical issues like the number of students. How well does she actually do the characterisation/romance is a matter of personal opinion.

 

I am not going to respond to each and every argument, because I have better things to do than to write long posts. Also, I didn’t say that your points are off-topic, I said that this thread may go off-topic.

To me it looked like he wanted Hermione to follow him in behaving like a terrible friend who can leave a mutual best friend on a difficult mission. Hermiona did the right thing by turning Ron down. If Ron suffered, because of it, it was because of his stupidity.

Because we know next to nothing about how their interactions looked like after the war. The books don’t cover it. Maybe Ron behaved better, maybe not. We just don’t know.

You can evaluate how well it is done, but it is a discussion for a different thread.

 

I am sorry if I misunderstood you here. I understand better now
If you are not going to respond to an argument, I can only assume you have nothing to say against it which is further confirmed by the accompanying dismissive attitude. It’s rather lame to not respond to something using the excuse it takes too long especially as it wouldn’t take very long to just acknowledge it.

I never blamed Hermione for anything here. If anything she was the one who tried to act rationally between the two hot-headed boys. I only tried to explain his behaviour using expectations between couples. I also found it interesting how you painted Harry as the supposed victim here when he actively encouraged Ron to go home, hmm…
I am sorry but you are the one getting off-topic here just like with all those detractors who claim that Ron’s jealousy of Harry means he’s a terrible boyfriend to Hermione (a claim you also made in an earlier post) when it’s repeatedly shown Ron was never jealous of Hermione’s successes and constantly praised and complimented her for them. I will just re-post what I said in earlier posts here as there’s no point in bringing in anything new when a previous post that covers everything was still not responded to.

I can only conclude from your lack of response to Ron’s -behaviour in DH that you do not many convincing arguments and the ones you have are easily shot down.

Yes I agree the books didn’t show their interactions after the war. Yet throughout the thread you continued to either dismiss or downplay the examples that showed Ron did behave better during the war in DH with little explanation among other examples in this old post.

Agreed and I hope I have shown in my posts I don’t necessarily like everything Rowling wrote.

 

Nope, I just don’t want to write long posts. Yes, Harry told him to go home three times ok, but Harry must have been tired too. And I would not say that just telling someone to go back is as terrible as leaving your best friend alone. Ron overreacted and not for the first time made a big issue out of a smaller thing and by doing so, made it worse than it really was.

Also, I have already admitted that Ron has a better side, so I don’t see any reason, why I have to admit it every time you give an example of a scene where he behaved properly. Besides, my opinion is connected with what I think about character development in these books, so it’s off-topic.

 

Well as I am not a minder reader it’s rather difficult to come to another conclusion especially as it is a convenient way to ignore anything in canon that doesn’t fit with your theory.

Finally you replied to something I said 5 posts ago! No Harry was not “tired” (and it is rather convenient to justify someone’s behaviour just because they are tired), he just did not want to admit he did not know anything as Ron correctly pointed out. Instead of being a good leader and try to reassure Ron about his family, he chose to feel butthurt about himself and lashed out to hide his own deficiencies which he later admitted himself. It took quite a few posts for you to admit something very important and obvious going on in that scene

Harry actively encouraged the separation of the trio, he was the one who wants to be separated from his best friend. He was also leader of the team, so he should behave better by default.

The quotes below have everything I have to say.

Yes he did overreact partially because of the Horcrux he was wearing for a long time and because he had fears about his family, but funnily enough so did Harry (who was not wearing the Horcrux, interesting) which made a huge difference to the outcome. This is why he realised his mistake as soon as Disapparated and wished to come back which changes everything.
Interesting because this is exactly what Harry and to a lesser extent Hermione and Neville and many others did in many different situations throughout the books. Could it be that it is just because they are human and it is one of their failings? If you think this alone makes Ron a horrible boyfriend, despite all his attempts to atone for mistakes and his good qualities, there is nothing to discuss.

I keep pointing out Ron’s good side because it feels like that you are continuously downplaying everything good about him and also did not show why the bad things overweights the good especially within the topics of discussion like whether Ron matured or not etc. Is that clear now?

Then why don’t you say so earlier? If you said this is the main reason for your opinion, then I wouldn’t have replied because how well the character development is done in the books is subjective and somewhat off-topic like you said which I am not particularly interested in discussing here.