Is there any answer in canon to the question of what happens when a Secret Keeper is killed?

 

JKR said somewhere - I think on her homepage:

I got the quote from the Lexicon: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/magic/spells/spells_f.html#fidelius_charm

That means for example Grimmauld Place is still hidden under the charm.
That's one of the more stupid elements of magic. It would make much more sense if the charm vanishes / is broken, the moment the secret keeper dies.

 

If it isn't too much trouble, i've got a fidelius question of my own to ask.

I'm pretty sure that the Potters were under Fidelius, if i'm not getting fanon mixed with canon again. So, if they were, i'm assuming it had broken after the whole Voldemort invading thing. I assume this because Hagrid knew where to go to find Harry, and well, I doubt they even told Hagrid who the secret keeper was, even before they changed it to Peter without ayone knowing. I mean let's face it, a little whiskey and he would have talked so fast his mouth would be a blur.

With the assumption that the Fidelius broke, how exactly did it break? I mean, Even with the secret dying with the Secret-Keeper, Peter is still alive. It couldn't have just automatically broke when Voldemort entered the home, and he couldn't have simply destroyed it, else theoretically, he wouldn't have even needed Peter.

I know J.K.R left alot of holes in everything from the color of grass to magical theory, but did she at least answer this?

 

Why? It would be rather foolish to paint such a large red target on the secret keeper. Some group is keeping something under a fidelius? Just kill everyone you suspect of being the secret keeper until the secret is revealed.

Your idea is akin to a safe automatically unlocking when you destroy the key to it instead of keeping its content protected.

 

The assumption is that the charm is broken because as the property is now destroyed, there isn't anything to be hidden left.

 

It has something to do with my assumption how magic works.

There are lots of hints that charms wear off after a while. Charms are layers of magic placed on an object. To work they feed on the power the caster placed in the charm. The more power you use to cast the spell the longer it lasts. A powerful wizard can make a charm last longer than an almost squib. I thought about the Fidelius Charm as 'feeding' on the Secret Keeper' magic. So it works as long as the Secret Keeper supports the charm.

EDIT:

And there is the problem, that within some centuries the whole world is plastered with hidden objects nobody knows, because all secret keepers died long ago.

 

Interesting. So you could make an enemy your Secret Keeper, imperius curse them into telling everybody the secret that you want to know, then execute them. You know, if you were that sort of person.

 

A couple of misconceptions here; it's perfectly possible that the Potters told Hagrid, Dumbledore, and maybe even the entire Order the Secret, because only the Secret Keeper is capable of passing that information on. Hagrid may have been told 'The Potters can be found at Godric's Hollow' or whatever the secret was, and could have then been plied with all manner of drinks and creatures, not to mention imperio'd, crucio'd and dosed with Veritaserum, and still would have been magically incapable of telling anyone where the Potters were. Only Peter could do that.

Second, you say if Voldemort could destroy the Fidelius he wouldn't have needed Peter, but that's not the case; for all we know, a Fidelius can be cancelled by pointing your wand at the charmed location and casting 'Finite Incantatem', but without first knowing where that charmed location is you not only do not know where to cast the spell, but you are magically incapable of seeing or otherwise perceiving the location even if you're right in front of it; If you were standing in Grimmauld Place you couldn't point your wand at #12 without knowing the secret because, for you, the location doesn't exist; you see #s 11 and 13 next to each other. Canonically, I'm pretty sure the charm on Godric's Hollow is lifted, if nothing else then because the location has, I think, been printed in history books within the wizarding world. However, whether this is because the charm was somehow lifted from the inside, or wore off over time, or was tied to a physical location (The house itself, or some sort of magical anchor inside it, for example) which was destroyed, is not discussed in canon, and is up for debate in fanon (I've seen fics in which the reasons behind it have been all those and more).

I don't think it's an unfair assumption to make, even if it runs against canon. The spell is "An immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul." - HPLexicon, taken from PoA. Since that tells us the secret itself is what's hidden, it's a fair assumption that, with the destruction/ineligibility of the soul (IE when it's no longer 'living') the secret itself is destroyed. Canon-wise, that just means that the secret cannot be passed on to any more people, not that the charm ceases to exist, but it's not inconceivable that another interpretation could be that it is the secret itself, IE the hiding of the knowledge, that ceases to exist. Since the knowledge is no longer hidden by this magical Secret, 12 Grimmauld Place would become visible once again, and those who knew the Secret beforehand would be able to share it.

One other twist explanation for the way the spell works in Canon that I came up with was this; while the spell requires a living soul to hide the Secret in, this could be simply because a living soul provides a physical target. On death, the soul moves on to wherever (As both Dumbles and Nearly-Headless Nick have hinted at before) and the secret stays hidden within it. Obviously from the 'Next great adventure' the deceased cannot pass the knowledge on to new people, but neither does their death release the secret, breaking the charm. Of course, all that's just idle speculation.

/Vayneout

 

That's how I see it happening. The soul "lives on" and keeps the secret. The only way to destroy it would be something like a Dementor's kiss, but we still don't know what it does to the souls and we probably never well.

The Potters telling Hagrid, Dumbledore, etc in the order (or having Peter do so) is very possible. One thing I still don't get about this particular Fidelus, is why they didn't just cast it on each other/Harry with the partner as a secret keeper. Write up a note to give to people you trust, and even if they can't see you they can see your note.

 

I'm not sure whether I'm mixing this up with canon or fanon but this might answer a lot of questions.

Was it ever expressly stated who cast the Potter's Fidelius? I believe it was in fact Lily who cast the spell, and even though it might not have ever been told outright, the Fidelius is a charm and JKR made a giant point to tote on exactly how proficient Lily was in Charms.

Despite all the magical theory of Charms wearing off over time and all the other great points, you might be trying to dive to far in on something that might be quite simple. Not that any of those wouldn't make good fanon plot points.

Lily was the last to get killed out of herself and James, and with her death, the Fidelius probably didn't exist anymore. Secret Keeper or not. All Voldemort needed was for Wormtail to tell him exactly where Godric's Hollow was so he could see it for himself.

 

The problem with this assumption is that if DD and Hagrid were told the secret then they would know that PETER was the Keeper not Sirius, negating the PoA storyline. Personally I think that GH is still under fidelius and it would be very ironic if Volde was using it as his base.

In most cases in Canon when we are told where something is it is pretty specific. Platform 9-3/4 is between the last barrier between Platforms nine and ten. Headquarters is located at Number 12 Grimmauld place in London. Harry Potter lives at Number 4 Privet Drive, Little Whinging, Surrey. Neville Longbottom's ancestral home is somewhere in East Lancashire near Blackpool. The Weasleys live at the Burrow, outside Ottery St Catchpole, near Devon. The Diggorys and the Lovegoods lived not too far away from the Weasleys. The Malfoys live in a manor in Wiltshire. The Gaunts lived in a dilapidated shack on a heavily wooded hillside above the town of Little Hangleton (approx 200 miles from Little Whinging, either in Yorkshire or near Brighton on the East Sussex coast). The Leaky Cauldron is a few blocks from Trafalgar Square on Charing Cross Road. The Potters live in Godrics Hollow, which to the best of our knowledge is somewhere in Wales?

Suddenly THE most important families in the book lives somewhere in a town somewhere in a country. Did the house have a name for the Floo Network? Did it have an address? Does anyone even know where the bombed out ruins of Harry's home are? About the only way to find it will be a differential analysis of what Harry and an impartial observer each see. I've got no clue how Hagrid got to Harry before Sirius unless there was a lot more going on than we knew. After all how did DD know to send Hagrid? The idea of Harry surviving an AK is ludicrous, yet somehow Hagrid is there with a crying Harry when Sirius arrives.

My theory is that Snape was there that night, but he wanted Black to suffer. I wouldn't be surprised if Snape dueled James himself like a treat given to a loyal dog (though given the whispy bits from his wand in the Graveyard it's almost certain Volde did the coup de grace). Realizing that forces were at work beyond his ken when Harry didn't die, he took Harry out of the house, hid him somewhere and went to tell Dumbles. Most likely he torched a muggle home (next door?) for the purposes of stashing Harry. Hagrid apparently is just able to rescue Harry from the ruins of the house just before Muggles start "swarming around." Why would muggles be swarming a home that they should not be able to see? Burning a muggle home next door would answer why Volde's body was never found, why they didn't destroy his wand, and a few other questions. When Sirius arrived, a house in the right general area was burning and nobody asked too many questions.

"Saving" Harry would cement Snape's rep as a spy, after all the child of your schoolyard nemesis who just killed your liege is laying helpless before you and there are no witnesses. A true DE would have killed him right? Dumbledore sends Hagrid to collect Harry and the rest is history. Fifteen years later I bet Snape was laughing as Black went through the veil. Snape could have stopped his torment and chase at any time but let it go on to keep that grudge going.

 

You forget that Harry was not told by Dumbledore the location of Grimmauld. Moody handed Harry a note written by Dumbledore stating its location.

A possibility is that Lilly or James had Peter write their location for Dumbledore just in case and instead of destroying the note immediately he kept it until he showed it to Hagrid on that Halloween.

Knowing the Secret does not automatically mean you know the Secret Keeper.

 

I assume they deliberately tried to keep the identity of the Secret Keeper a secret

If you add all hints, then everything happened very fast. Peter was made Secret Keeper and no more than a few days later he informed Voldemort, who raided Godric's Hollow as soon as possible.

Therefor I doubt many people knew about GH. Sirius, of course, but Hagrid? Dumbledore might be one of the first people to be informed about their hiding place, but if they had told him the secret, wouldn't they have informed him about the switch Sirius-Peter, too, as he was their trusted leader, the most powerful wizard alive, etc, etc, etc? Thus I think neither Hagrid nor DD knew the hiding place.

I think the fact that Hagrid was able to find and get Harry means the Fidelius was broken or lifted. I always thought Peter as Secret Keeper lifted the charm - who else if not the Secret Keeper is able to lift it? With the Fidelius lifted, everyone else suddenly remembered, where the Potters were. Because of this Dumbledore knew something had happened and sent Hagrid.

 

What's the purpose of the Potter's hiding themselves with Fidelius if in the end they would only tell the whole Order where they live? One of the reason why they hid themselves using the Fidelius Charm is because they KNEW there was a SPY in the Order. If the whole Order knew where to find the Potters then it would be very easy for the spy to go Godric's Hollow and AK all three of them in their sleep.

I agree with Necrule Paen's idea of having a fail safe where they had Peter write the location and giving it to Dumbledore for safekeeping.

 

I thought they knew a spy was among their friends (Remus, Sirius, Peter) but didn't know which one which is why they did the switch. I think that as far as JKR is concerned, the Potters were powerful enough to stop anybody but Voldemort. They had escaped him 3 times, so any of his servants should've been a piece of cake.

 

Note: Like some people, I'm not sure where my canon defers into fanon. <_<

I was always under the impression the Fidelius dispelled after the caster died, while the idea that there could be a ton of hidden objects all over the place that no one would remember is kinda cool, it seems impractical and well.. what keeps the spell going? Of course, Dumbledore had said the spell was largely forgotten, right? Perhaps this is why, or maybe there's a catch as to what supplies the magic to support the charm if the caster is gone?

Interesting idea: If the caster dies, the Fidelius switches over to the next in kin and uses his/her magic to support it. (Definitely some problems with this idea, but it's interesting nevertheless. Could explain a few things. )

Maybe I'm mistaken, but what keeps Sirius from being the one that told Dumbledore and Hagrid (etc.) the secret? They didn't switch to Peter until a few days before the attack on Godrics Hollow, right? It would depend on whether or not the secret is the same after a switch with keepers but it's a possible explanation for assuming Sirius was the keeper. (well, if someone wanted to full out dispel a manipulative Dumbledore knew Sirius was innocent all along plot, anyways.)

^ but yeah, that seems like the most likely explanation.

 

I don't know if anybody ever noticed this, but it seems there are two ways to cast the Fidelius Charm. In POA I believe Flitwick said something along the lines of "You-Know-Who couldn't have found them if he had his nose pressed to their window." Could this then be interpreted that the house itself was not under Fidelius, but the Potters themselves?

 

It could mean that.

But it could also mean that JKR didn't think about the Fidelius that much when she wrote PoA. Writing OotP she might have wanted to add some special effects.

 

So if you want to hide from everyone else and use the fidelius couldn't you get a random guy or girl, make him secret keeper and kill him afterwards, then it means that nobody could ever find you?

Overpowered much?

 

Perhaps I'm Mis-Intreperting what I remember of Cannon, But I was under the assumption that Sirius persuaded the Potters to switch the Keeper Before the spell was ever cast.

I'm more inclined to follow Avitus' Line of thinking in that it wasn't the house But the potter's themselves that were hidden, Either that or Dark Minion's thought that Peter lifted it all together just before the attack. It would be Interesting to see caitiff's Idea in action though. What if it was delivering harry that cemented Snape's position as a 'Good Guy' In Dumbledor's mind? It's not Implauable that snape, Seeing his master banished, Took immediate steps to get himself some additional protection from the prosecution that was sure to come.