Anyone watch Slahser's way to play Monkey King? Shit looks OP.

Also, Wraith King Level 25 upgrade looks fucking absurd. No mana cost on reincarnation makes Refresher WK viable with the new backpack shit.

Dota is no longer dota when WK is no longer a 1 button hero.

 

Yea but, it's level 25. I don't know what percentage of games actually get to lvl25, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were under 1%. Unless it's a hero like prophet, or maybe invoker (who gets early midas), you can mostly treat the lvl25 talents as flavor text, because they will almost never come up in a meaningful way.

That said, I am mostly a fan of this update. There has been a trend recently to remove needless complexity carried over from the WC3 engine, which this patch continues, and I'm a big fan. There was so much random nonsense about which illusions get which buffs and auras, for example, which is mostly cleaned up now. Also damage types have been cleaned up, etc, etc.

The major map/jungle changes are hard to evaluate, but this has happened several times recently and high level games are still good, so no real reason to worry about it imo, and change is always good for high level dota.

 

That is true, but keep in mind that experience has changed somewhat with this patch. I played 4 complete games in the test client today. Hit 25 in two of them(56m/1h:12m victories), and 23 in the other two (27 minute victory/38 minute loss ) There were 18 other level 25s across those 4 games, on either side.

Granted, it was the test client, and I was buying midas, so those were probably unusual cases... But I'd say it's likely to see at least a few 25s in games lasting ~45 minutes, especially with any midas carriers.

 

The new Dire jungle looks like it's safer than the Radiant's . It's also easier to pull on the Dire safelane.

 

Played three games with 7.00. Here are my thoughts:

• Map Changes are fine if confusing. I keep going somewhere expecting a jungle camp only to find a staircase. The whole High/Low ground variation throughout the jungle really changes the way fight work, but also the vision map. There's too many trees in the way to have very good vision from ground-level ward (as far as I know at the moment). I'm still uncertain about the Roshan location; it's certainly easier to contest from both side considering how the entrance is placed.
• Monkey King seems pretty cool. I've played against one both time, and both time he was easily taken care of. I don't know what his base stats are, but I felt like he was somewhat tanky in the early game which made it super hard for support or low damage carry to contest his aggression.
• Talents are pretty cool. I played Lina, and Invoker twice. I think Lina will come back into the meta as a viable support and even a carry. Her talents allow her to get a +100 cast range. Coupled with +220 of Aether Lens, you can initiate your combo from so far away it's crazy. As if that wasn't enough, you can get another talent for 100 attack range. Coupled with Dragon Lance and you can hit towers without being within their sight just like Sniper and Drows with DL. It was pretty fun playing her. Invoker was also very interesting; I went midas both time and didn't even considered the +%xp gain talent. It's a useless talent once you hit 25 anyway, and I haven't done the math but I think Midas pays itself faster than the talent exp would. Anyway, the -15s cooldown on the level 25 talent is pretty amazing. Your tornado has a 11.2s cooldown. It gives a lot more control to invoker when the fight goes a bit wrong (didn't land your combo, or enemy pop bkb, etc.)

All in all, I liked it

 

Ugh.. hate this new patch update. Bugs everywhere. The balancing required to even make this game slightly competitive is massive.

This patch is stupid and pointless. They did not need to force this patch update when so many metas are being played by competitive dota. This is not LoL where it's been static for years.

 

Please, innovation is needed to keep a game like Dota2 to the forefront of free to play. You can't keep the game the same way it has been since Dota1. At some point you're going to have to change something.

 

Yeah the problem I think is that they did it too fast. Competitive Dota is at its peak right now and this massive massive change will throw a monkey wrench to everything pro players have worked for. What do you think would happen if basketball or football would suddenly have huge changes to its gameplay? There'd be outcry.

And as I have said, Dota has not been static at all. It has been changing a whole lot compared to what it was during Dota 1 or even a few years back.

 

I still completely disagree. The game had some clear balance issues that needed to be addressed. This was the best way to go about it.

I also think that comparing Dota 2 to basketball is stupid. Esports is a constatnyl changing space, all the games have been really, whereas traditional sports are almost completely static. The pro players haven't lost all they worked for, they just need to adapt and move on. As they always do. Esports is not real sports.

Dota changes consistently, this was a bit more of a change than normal, but a necessary one.

 

Esports is not real sports? I beg to differ. The amount of training, talent and dedication needed to be a pro top tier player is about the same as any traditional sport. In fact, you gotta use your damn brain instead of mostly relying on muscle memory. Also, genetic freaks won't be able to dominate the sport as much in comparison to traditional sports.

The only reason why it's "not" considered a real sport is because of its relative newness. It is very new.

The game had some clear balance issues that were addressed and have been addressed via captains mode. Simple as that.

Before the patch you're saying there's some "clear balance issues?" Try playing the new patch and that clear balance issues changes to a big damn balance issues that will take a whole lot of patching to even remotely make it as balanced as it has been.


Don't get me wrong, I don't hate change. In fact, I encourage it. This huge info dump patch is not the way to do it though.

 

I am trying to say that esports doesn't follow the same conventions as real sports, not that the pro players have to put in less effort.

Also, it's absolutely fine having an info dump patch. This is a major shift in how the game is played, you can't really do that slowly. It was released directly after a major so there are quite a few months to learn the patch.

What's so complicatedly unbalanced, that it'll take months to patch?

 

Remember when they re-structured some hero abilities and skills? Or introduce new hero to the pool? It took them forever to re-balance them and re-introduce them back to captains mode and by default, pro and competitive mode.

Now, we have huge changes everywhere especially that talent tree which is in need of a severe balancing issue. (Those ahgs upgrades are brutal)

 

So your argument is that Valve should instead make all the different massive changes individually over a significantly longer period of time, balance them one at a time, then combine them together and balance that?

Pretty sure I like the idea of introducing them all at the same time, then balancing the game just once better.

 

tbh I'm fine with having new OP heroes, it's fun when you are playing heroes that nobody was really playing. It's cool playing Visage again, Tree is everywhere and Lycan seems fun and I'm still not quite sure if Monkey King is just snowballing from his really strong laning phase or if he is genuinely OP.

The thing I'm most interested in tbh is how IceFrog is going to balance the talents. I wonder, for example, if IceFrog will change CM's +50 damage to something like +5 int or is he committed to the damage. Or will he slowly replace a lot of talents with what are effectively level 5/6 of some skills.

 

Yes. At the very least, the game will still be playable in a competitive level. Aghs PoTM/Drow did a complete meta change to the game and that was just adding a small change.

Yes it will be fun, yes it will be new, but it's also game breaking to have too much change at once.

No use arguing about it anyhow since it won't change a thing. Valve does what Valve wants and we players just have to suck it up. Who knows, maybe in a year they'll finish balancing the game again somehow.

 

I like the new patch. At first I was overwhelmed by all the changes, and the bugs made some of the games really annoying. Not being able to use the minimap during a game is something I consider gamebreaking, but they've fixed it pretty quickly. I don't like Monkey King: he definitely seems OP and doesn't require a lot of skill to be played correctly (unlike Earth Spirit when he was first introduced).

My main problem with the patch isn't actually with the patch, but with the people that appear in my games. There's still people that play LC/Meepo jungle, even though the game is heavily focused around non-stop fighting. Sanctuary/Shrine is a game-changer (especially the new tp location), but most people ignore it. As someone who mostly plays support, warding has become a real challenge. I simple don't know what's good, most of the time. But that's why I love it: every game was the same thing during the last few months, and now it's completely different. I think objective based gaming is more important now, and if they (slightly) increase the comeback gold, it could be a better patch than 6.88.

 

This might be a bit of a necro, but I figured that is better than starting a new thread. I am curious if anyone on DLP is still active on DOTA 2? I figured with the Dueling Fates update hopefully coming soon it was a good time to check in on the DOTA 2 population of DLP, trade thoughts on the meta and possibly get some people to play in a stack with.

To start off here are some of my thoughts on the current meta:

• Necrophos is currently OP as all hell at the moment, I am fluctuating between a 70-80% WR on him currently and will be sad when he gets nerfed. I feel his current strength is a result of how powerful Ghost Shroud and Sadism are in combination.
• Sven has reclaimed his spot as the preferred pub cancer of the 2-3k bracket and is overall in a very good place at the moment.
• Veno is strong without feeling too OP at the moment, but is possibly a bit too versatile as it can be played well in any position from 1-4.
• Earthshaker is strong and I look forward to nerfs making him a little less popular, tired of seeing ES every other game.
• Nightstalker honestly feels like the best roamer in the game and the vision advantage he gives is absurd.
• Nature's Prophet is insanely strong during all phases of the game. Once you get phase boots NP hits for near 100 before Tree-ents which makes most lanes a breeze while providing global gank potential for your team. This then transitions into split push potential making the character a head ache to play against.
• Given the current strength of NP, Necro, Puck, Mirana and Batrider I am honestly surprised Drow comps have not made a huge comeback.

I look forward to hearing the thoughts of the rest of DLP on the current state of DOTA 2 and lets all hope Icefrog doesn't wait till December with the next update like he did with 6.88.

 

From your post I'm assuming you are playing in between 2k-3k MMR because I have none of the issues you've mentioned above at 4k+.

• Necrophos: Easily dealt with aggressive right-clickers in the laning phase, and diffusal carrier in the late game.
• Sven: Bullied into oblivion; I barely see him at all.
• Veno: Strong, and annoying I'll admit, but I feel like he doesn't bring enough to the team.
• Earthshaker: Pretty much everywhere despite his recent nerf to Enchant Totem. He's a good hero, but you can easily force him out of lane early on with aggressive duo, and lane management (e.g. Lich).
• Nature's Prophet is actually not that present in high bracket. People don't seem to trust themselves to play him well, but he is indeed very strong and a good one on your team will definitely have high impact...just as a poor one will cost you the game.
• Drow is way too easy to handle, and I barely see 1 out 4 of the heroes you've mentioned.

 

About right on where I play at most the time, with the occasional 4k game being tossed at me lately. Most the heroes I mentioned aren't even that prevalent at my bracket, other than ES and Sven. A lot of my thoughts come from watching a lot of pro-DOTA(FPL and King's Cup at the moment), where in the first wave of picks and bans you will almost guaranteed see NP, Necro, NS, Nyx, Lich, ES, Puck and Veno. Which led me to trying some of them out to see if they could be that good at my level.

I definitely see the logic in most of your thoughts on my own observations and agree with most of them in hindsight. The advice you provided on ES mostly lines up with my experiences, however even when bullied all he needs is a blink to be a pain. Especially when people are not paying attention to their positioning. But then again, I assume people will be better about that as I climb. Could you elaborate on the Veno bullet a bit more?

I am definitely curious to what is popular at your mmr? I am always happy to take advice and steal tech from better players.

 

I am still active in dota 2, though no where as much as I used to be.

Necro and ES are common in my 3k bracket in Au servers, though I'm never really convicned that certain heroes are OP, just that certain drafts favor other drafts.

Veno is frustrating as hell to play against, but not really common.