Well I've decided to stop waiting for one of you guys to do it. Here is your very own thread dedicated to debating which element the Kyuubi really is. Try not to clutter up the NFL with it again please.

So which is it? Is Kyuubi;

Tied to Water.

Tied to Fire.

Tied to Earth.

Tied to Lighting.

Tied to Wind.

Tied to them All.

Or does it shoot light out its ass?

 

I'll like to think that he is just a large mass of chakra and is able to form said chakra into whatever the hell he wants.

However, going by the stipid 'affinity' bullcrap that Kishie has pulled, the Kyubi probably has control over all the elements; unless I'm mistaken, and please correct me if I am as I am not entirly sure on it myself, the more powerfull you are the more elements you have an affinity for. As such, the Kyubi is the most powerful of all demons in the Naruto-verse and it would make perfect sense for him to have affinity for all. Wether this will transfer over to Naruto is debatable, but highly unlikely as Kishie loves Sasuke more and would never do anything to upset this balance.

 

How about adding 'None at all' or 'Healing' to the poll?

As yet, the real, unsealed Kyuubi has made just one appearance in the whole manga...and that's only on one page in ch. 1. Said image merely shows it swishing its tails and growling a bit.

It's never directly mentioned that there is any affinity at all. Actually, not even a hint except the red colour of its chakra maybe but that doesn't say much.

And Kyuubi!Naruto only uses this red chakra to bash people into the ground. No fire spewing, nor any other elemental manipulation and definitely no light out of his ass.

The only fact we know for sure, is that one extraordinary characteristic of his chakra is the immense healing factor.

When Naruto is cut by the Demon Brothers, Kakashi, who was probably present at the Kyuubi attack, seems to know this abnormal healing from the demon.

I'm aware that healing can be achieved with normal chakra via medic jutsus but you can't just gather lots of normal chakra and expect a healing effect to take place like with Naruto's demon chakra. Addtionally, any healing jutsu would be hard pressed to imitate the enormous level of healing the red chakra has.

So the healing factor is defenitely inhuman and thus the only particularity that I'd attribute to the Kyuubi. Also, none of the other demons seems to have a similar healing ability, at least Gaara hasn't.

I know that it's not really a typical element but so is Gaara's sand. So if you'd please add one of these options to the poll, voting will get much easier for me -.-

 

How do I edit polls? I don't beleive I've come across anybody but Staff who can do that.

 

Well... let's count a second. One... Two... Three... yes, Nine demons. But only five elements + Ice and Wood.

And now the main question: Can two demons have the same affinity?

I don't think so... so we're missing an element (Metall?) , or there is an other system.

I have collected all informations on the demons for quite some time. So in short:

Itchibi (1 tail): Shukaku
Jinchuuriki: Gaara
Look: Tanuki, yellow body
Ability: Can control sand/ Air
Possible Element Affinity: Earth speciality Sand // Air

Nibi (2 tails): Nekotama
Jinchuuriki: Nii Yugito (aus Kumogakure)
Look (jap. mythology): Black cat
Fähigkeit: Firebreath
Special: In the legends the nekomata could control the death; in the manga th cat has only shown abilities similar to fire.
Possible Element Affinity: myth. Darkness // Manga: Fire?

Sanbi (3 tails): Isonade
Jinchuuriki: none, was wild
Look (jap. mythology): big shark, blue, three tails
Look in Manga: similar to a turtle, green, three tails and a shell
Possible Element Affinity: Water

Yonbi (4 tails): Sokou
Jinchuuriki: - - -
Look (jap. mythology): Mixture from serpent and rooster (basilisk?)
Possible Element Affinity: ?

Gobi (5 tails): Houkou
Jinchuuriki: - - -
Look (jap. mythology): Hund, weiß, lebt im Wald
Possible Element Affinity: Wood // all? One element in each tail?

Rokubi (6 tails): Raijuu (Thunder-being)
Jinchuuriki: - - -
Look (jap. mythology): weasel, yellow fur
Possible Element Affinity: Thunder

Shichibi (7 tails): ? (a, b or c)
Jinchuuriki: - - -
a) Kaku (oder Mujina): Badger, Earth affinity, can transform himself with clay
b) Makumori: Black Bat, demon
c) Suzaku: Phönix, one of the legendäry Yoma, Fire or Air Affinity

Hachibi (8 tails): ? (a or b)
Jinchuuriki: - - -
a) Yamata no Orochi: Serpent, eight heads, brown
b) Hachimata: Dragon, eight heads

Kyuubi (9 tails): Kyubi no Youko
Jinchuuriki: Uzumaki Naruto
Look (jap. mythology): Fox, red fur
Ability: Very potent and near limitless chakra, fast healing
Element Symbolik: Fire // Blood? (my theory) // all?

 

Going by a manga I would have to say no affinity because like li.u said all Naruto has ever shown with it is massive healing and a more potent version of human chakra that can kick lot's of ass. My personal votefire

 

I have always figured that the Kyuubi would be so badass that is was nonelemental. The problem is that you would think that some of the affinity would carry over to the Jinchuuriki which would make it be Wind, which well I can't see. So I stick with nonelemental.

 

I don't think everyone here understands german:

I support: Kyuubi has no element. He can control insane amounts of chakra...that's it.

 

I have heard that during the intial Kyuubi attack, he could crumble mountains, form tsunami and creats great gusts with one sweep of it's tails. From that I get Kyuubi having the ability to manipulate wind, earth and, water. Also, I have heard that there are ninja in stone that have the ability to regenerate at mass amounts, similar to kyuubi's regeneration. This fact is also proven by Kabuto who was intially from the stone village, but was taken in by the leaf and was also placed by the akatsuki under a form of brainwashing. That puts more merit in the Kyuubi being earth based. Also naruto during his fight with sasuke was able to move through the water very quickly without kicking his legs, but through the manipulation of kyuubi's chakra, he doesn't possess the control for this feat. This puts more merit in the affinity for water. Wind being Naruto's element, I can't prove that it is kyuubi's through this.

My take on Kyuubi's chakra is mostly earth and water, with a hint of wind.

 

We already talked about the 'mountain crumbling and tsunami causing' in the NFL thread. Someone from Japan said that it's only a pattern of speech to express how strong and powerful something is.

So all this figurative speaking is only there to emphasize the enormous amount of strength the Kyuubi has.

Huh? Where did you get that from? I haven't watched any filler episodes but the original manga introduces only few Iwa nins. At the moment, I can only think of the 3 guys from Gaiden.

None of them had any regenerating abilities and I'm not even sure if Kabuto really is from the Rock. However, it's true that he is also able to regenerate his body to a certain degree.

His skill used for that is a bit different from Naruto's. Whereas Naruto can heal him himself at any time with the Kyuubi chakra, Kabuto has to gather his chakra to the specific point where the damage will occur.

So his ability is rather like a cushion that has to be prepared beforehand. Even then the extent of his healing is nowhere near Naruto's. It looks like something that can be achieved with normal chakra by any extraordinarily skilled medic such as Kabuto.

So, even if he really was from Iwa, I still don't see how regeneration is connected to earth chakra and the nins in this country. In my opinion, super regeneration is and will always be Kyuubi exclusive.

Dunno...but this point sounds a bit ridiculous. In that scene you simply can't see how Naruto moves under the water, he just shoots out of it.

Still, only because it isn't visible, it doesn't mean that he now has a mystical water affinity and godlike control over it. Also something important like that would've probably accented or at least mentioned by Kisihimoto.

If he really had something like that, he'd probably have learned water walking much faster and wouldn't have spent a whole month for it.

 

I don't have the time to debate my case, so I will just link someone who explains it better than I can now:

The second part of this.

And the first few paragraphs of this.

 

Ehm...that wasn't a good explanation of Kyuubi's elemental status. Actually, it wasn't even an explanation at all.

What he said is that Kyuubi is the God of Fire. That's it. End of story. No elaborations, no explanations on how he got to that conclusion, nothing but the claim that Kyuubi's element is fire.

This rant mostly addresses other issues and isn't really relevant for this discussion.

 

His ranting about Kyuubi being the god of fire is just the legand that kitsune have the ability to control fire, but that is true only for certain legands, I believe it was the brown/yellow 5 tail that could control fire. Not the 9 which, I have seen in traces of other legands and animes, games, that ninetailed foxs typically are more earthy, like plant manipulation.
Also Li.u, Kabuto was found in a burnt out village around or in stone, a child of the enemy. Heck, that is even mentioned in the chunnin exams. Take a look for yourself if you can find them, I recommend youtube, they usually have every episode of it there.They also mention that Kabuto was taken in by Yashamaru(the name is similar to that)who was the head of konoha's medical devision, thus where kabuto learned his techniques. Now for Kabuto's regeneration, if his 'old blood' awakens fully he is not completely concious of his healing, he runs more on instinct in that bloodlusted state.

Also, on the elemental effinity of water of kyuubi, naruto learned water walking much quicker than expected if ebisu's surprise was anything to go on, and it didn't take him a whole month. He mastered said technique in less than a week before going on to learn summoning, which then led to him meeting Kyuubi face to face. Also, naruto is not tapping into the foxs chakra constantly, his own chakra is supressing it all the time, he has to be totally exhausted to even tap into before his contact with kyuubi, so Kyuubi's affinities are not fully crossed over into him, if at all. I'd like to mention that the other jinchuriki's that I have seen have had more contact with their demons chakra and mind. To add to that, gaara uses earth and wind effinities to create his ability to manipulate sand, which is based on the legend of the battle of earth and air. When Naruto taps into his chakra, the only elements I've seen him do better in manipulating is wind(his own effinity) and water, his control of his movement on it becomes much greater than before. I've seen the chakra of the kyuubi itself tear up earth with its presense before naruto could control it, which the chakra when summoned doesn't do, even later on when naruto taps into it willingly.

Also, the expression of strength for crumbling mountains and creating tsunami, I have seen traces of several legands and expressions in the show and most if not all are taken literally, like the legend of the frog being beaten by the snake, the frog beating the slug and the slug beating the snake. This legend is can be represented in several ways in the series but my personal favorite of the slug beating the snake is Tsunade being Hokage, orochimaru wanted that title badly at one time.

Any other counters Li.u? I enjoy your takes.

 

Stupid Rant:
I have no problem with the Kyuubi being the God of Fire according to the legend. It's just that he didn't mention where he got all that information from or any other details to back his claim. A little explaining and elaborating on his part would've been nice...

Kabuto:
How am I supposed to know where 'Bellflower Pass' is? In the manga it's just said that he's the only survivor of that battle and the child of an enemy. So I had no idea that Bellflower is supposedly near Iwa and that the enemies were rock nins.

Still, the argument that Iwa nins have some sort of automatic regeneration due to their earth chakra remains moot. There is simply no real example given.

Also, I can't find any scene where Kabuto goes into a fully awakened bloodlust state and heals himself 'unconciously'. As yet, he always had to do the healing with some sort of technique or jutsu.

Water Walking:
Ah yeah...hehe...my bad. I looked it up and Naruto grasps this skill really quickly. So it's not a whole month but rather like...ehh...a day. Just had the notion that he hadn't mastered it for a whole month since I had this picture in mind where he always keeps sinking in while training with Jiraya.

However, I still think that any affinity in or out of Kyuubi state would have been emphasized or at least brought up by Kishimoto.

Kyuubi Chakra:
Sure, the red chakra is so potent that it can tear up the earth as can be seen in his fight with Haku. It's just that always when he taps into it unwillingly, he at the very least loses a part of his counciousness.

So the output is not controlled and a much higher amount leaks out. It's just more...thus the more devastating effects. Even Lee's normal chakra when he initiates the Ura Renge tears up the earth a bit. Again, that's just because there's so much of it.

I'm not really sure about the wind and water affinity. I haven't seen any wind manipulation or jutsus while in Kyuubi mode and the red chakra seemed to rather impede than help him with the Futon Rasengan.

The water...perhaps I could agree with you on that to some degree. Though, like with any other element there just isn't enough evidence given. So for now, I'll just stick with 'no chakra nature at all' and 'regeneration'.

'Crumbling mountains and creating tsunamis':
Well, perhaps it's taken literally, perhaps not. Who knows. But since so many people were dead bent on the 'fact' that Kyuubi has to have at least water and earth affinity just because of a little bit of figurative speaking...

I don't say that it's impossible but it's just as likely that it's merely meant as the pattern of speech it actually is.

 

I didn't say the regeneration was for all Iwa ninja. After all, the effinity is determined by the person and the bloodline they may or may not possess. Tenzo's is water and earth. Haku's is water and wind. Each of their effinities are joined together to create what is known as a bloodline for each. Byakugan and sharingan are much harder to pinpoint what elements they tap into, but from data collected, sharingan is fire mostly. So that could mean that unusual bloodlines have some elemental effinity, and bloodline abilites can be simulated with just plain manipulation of elements. Who is to say that medical techniques don't tap into elements to heal?

Kishimoto doesn't have everything planned out, he said so in an interview, he is still working out a few things. Until the series ends we won't know for sure and maybe even after.

During the fight with sasuke, Naruto just screams at sasuke and high winds knock sasuke back. Also during said fight he claps his hands and wind, water and chakra all smash into sasuke, though the chakra goes through him without damage.
Also about jutsus, How in the world is kyuubi's personal jutsu going to be used by naruto? Their bodies arn't even similar. Even Gaara and Shukaku use different techniques and their abilities are much more capable of working together. And to add to that, Naruto dislikes using Kyuubi's chakra, even when he needs to. He wants to stand on his own, and because of that, why would he spend time trying to create unique techniques only available with the Kyuubi's chakra? So he could be more dependant? Doesn't fit in his personality.

 

Kyuubi has no element. Kyuubi needs no element. Kyuubi is a living entity; he's an organism. Western people (no offense or anything, but this is true) tend to take the translation of 'demon' too literally. Western demons are hellish entities that are the embodiment of evil, as I understand. The closest we Japanese can get to those are the oni, who are basically just ogres or trolls when it comes down to it.

'You' from youkai or youko just means supernatural or unnatural. It doesn't mean evil, it doesn't mean hellish, it sure as hell doesn't mean OMG!!1!eV1LLLD3M0N!!!!ORZ!!!. 'Kai' from youkai also means strange or unnatural; youkai is a general term describing those of supernatural and unexplainable origin, going into the whole ghosts and spirits thing with the occult. Inuyasha has also set the stage for youkai and demons in the Western audience's mind, when it's pretty inaccurate if you want to go for authentic cultural definitions of youkai. All manga and stories are, when it comes down to accuracy.

...anyway.

The whole 'screaming at Sasuke and a shockwave occurs' thing, as well as the 'creating tsunamis and knocking over mountains' thing are both ways of expressing greatness or amazing strength; Japanese folklore and mythology generally tend to overexaggerate in order to convey power and physical presence.

This can be seen in the Yoshitsune tales, where (in an extremely shortened, paraphrased summary) a celebrated military mind, Minamoto no Yoshitsune, is on the run from his tyrannical older brother, Minamoto no Yoritomo, the new shogun. Various political motives and personal jealously move Yoritomo to kill his brother.

Yoshitsune's first encounter with Benkei, who would later become his most loyal servant, was on a bridge. He tried to cross, but Benkei wouldn't let him through without being bested. So they duel, and Yoshitsune was said to leap in the air with an amazing grace to defeat Benkei- that he was able to jump Hassou, or eight sous, a form of measurement. Hassou, as best as I can recall, is four or five meters. Roughly. It's impossible for a human being to jump that high without assistance. But, Yoshitsune does iit. Hassoutobi, or Hassou leaps or jumps, is what this is now known as; a definitely grossly exaggerated scene where Yoshitsune defeats Benkei through speed and agility. Japanese folklore expanded his actual deeds to make him seem much more heroic and able.

Another Japanese expression exemplifying this is "Iwa wo (pronounced 'o') mo kudaku", meaning "can even crush stone", signifying terrifying strength.

At any rate, Kishimoto, as most Japanese authors and storytellers tend to do when explaining the backdrop of a story, uses old fashioned and epic language when he first introduced the Kyuubi in the first issue. This suggests that he meant for Kyuubi's descriptions of being able to level mountains and cause tidal waves as a show of his awesome presence or aura.
(I reread the thread while writing, and I noticed li.u already said this, albeit in much less detail. Sorry for reposting the argument)

And this also reminds me; Kyuubi isn't seen as female by most Japanese readers that I've talked to. It's seen as a more masculine identity, but with no actual gender. In the original, untranslated versions, it uses 'washi' when it refers to itself. 'Washi' is generally used by older men- it originated from the word 'watashi', meaning 'I' or 'Me".

It also ends its dialogue with the suffix 'nou'. When he tells Naruto that he is weak during the last battle with Sasuke, he says "Omae wa yowai nou, kozou. Kansha surundana, kono washi ni; soshite, washi wo omae gotoki ni fuujikometa Yondaime Hokage ni." (or something extremely close to that. I'll have to verify. I don't own the actual manga volumes, so I have to find it on the web.) 'Nou' is used primarily by older (as in retired old) men, though women occasionally use it. It's a Japanese stereotype that old people end their sentences or phrases with 'nou', but the next usage of 'kozou', commonly translated as 'brat', makes me lean towards the masculine side of things. Women in Japan, and indeed, female characters in Japanese folklore rarely use kozou in that context.

Next, he ends the 'Kansha surundana," with the suffix 'na' which is a mainly masculine usage. In the anime, the voice's intonation shows that the Kyuubi is saying this in a contemptuous way; female entities wouldn't use that phrasing when saying something in contempt.

The water affinity argument from earlier can also be attributed to plain chakra control. If you can stand on top of water, can't you also grab onto water under the surface? Therefore, if you have enough chakra and enough control over it, then you can push yourself underwater with frightening speed. Naruto, at that point, is enraged at Sasuke, if memory serves. His chakra is shown, numerous times in the manga/anime, grows stronger and somehow more powerful/potent when he's angry or determined. It's not a far stretch of imagination to say that he was able to kick off of the water to shoot his clones out of it.

...And you don't really need earth affinities to level mountains or water affinities to create tidal waves. I mean, a country could blow up a mountain with a well placed explosive chain or single missile, and cause tsunamis with a well aimed torpedo in the right circumstance.

Backtracking a little, when Naruto just claps, as you said, "wind, water and chakra all smash into sasuke, though the chakra goes through him without damage. " Isn't chakra only tangible energy that can be used to mold the body and influence the area? How else would you define it? It can be used to stick to walls; is that a magnetic sort of action? or is it physically 'sticky'? Or is it just a matter of perception, where he's not 'sticking' to walls, but the chakra merely allows him to stand on the wall? At any case, chakra has been shown to be able to manipulate the surrounding landscape. Gaara is a prime example of this. Temari is a better example. She uses a fan to cause extremely fast and sharp winds to cut at her opponents; if swinging a fan once is enough for a technique like that, is it overkill to say that Naruto, empowered by Kyuubi's[/i] chakra can clap his hands and cause a single-effect shockwave?

Kyuubi is a is a demon, or at least a demonic, unnatural entity, right? Or is he a physical, living, breathing, ultra-powerful organism? Seeing how Shukaku assumes form in the Sound Invasion arc, we see that Bijuu can be intangible beings; he uses his chakra to gather soil and sand to form a physical body. But since chakra is the molded, fused form of spiritual energy with physical energy, Shukaku would have needed an actual, living physical body to take the physical energy from. Enter Gaara. But, sleep deprived and insomniac as he is, Gaara can NOT have much stamina in his natural, unaltered state. It's just biologically not possible. Gaara, at that stage of the battle, is also exhausted to the extreme. Therefore, it's natural to conclude that the Shukaku was actively involved in manufacturing usable chakra. Since Shukaku is an intangible being with fuckloads of chakra and energy, it is very probable that he was able to 'convert' his energy into Gaara's physical stamina to forcefully manufacture usable chakra in order to create an avatar in the real world.

Sanbi, as we see in canon, is a living, breathing, turtle like monstrosity. It just swims around; it never uses chakra at all. So Bijuu can also be living, tangible beings. Kyuubi also is shown to be injured numerous times before he is sealed, and [i[turned into an intangible being with a considerable load of energy[/i]. He heals his body up anyhow, but the point is, he is a living entity at that stage. As soon as he is sealed into Naruto, his body has no mention at all in canon. No corpse is mentioned; the body, we can therefore assume, was also a manifactured avatar constructed through chakra, just like Shukaku attempted to do in the Sound Invasion. I could also be entirely wrong, since there is no mention of a body or lack thereof throughout canon.

Bijuu must have physical bodies to base their chakra and energy from; otherwise, they are weak entities that are only capable of supplying spiritual energy to their vessels. Shukaku tries to control Gaara by forcing him into insomnia and influencing him by speaking into his mind, thus giving it a greater chance to be able to override Gaara's control and physically manifest himself at will. He is overjoyed when he finally has a physical body in canon; perhaps this is the reason? His seal allows him to do this, to counter any arguments against this.

Hang on to your horses here; I'm getting to the elements bit.

Kyuubi is able to manifest its chakra through Naruto's body in the last battle between him and Sasuke in Part I of canon. The Nibi was able to manifest itself in its entirety when Kakuzu and Hidan go to capture it. Using my earlier theory about Shukaku's ability to force manufacture usable chakra through a physical body, it's entirely possible that Kyuubi and Nibi were utilizing the same method to manifest their chakra in a physical, tangible form.

The chakra that Naruto uses when he defeats Neji is different from the chakra he uses to fight Sasuke. The former is primarily the same as his own chakra; it's just energy. So he's drawing on Kyuubi's excess energy to boost his chakra reserves; scenes of chakra trailing through his pathways from the seal on his stomach support this. The latter, though, is physical, and tangible. It grabs Sasuke and flings him into a stone cliff! So there has to be a different way in how Naruto differentiates the two kinds. Naruto certainly has no understanding of it. Therefore, it must be the Kyuubi manipulating the state of energy.

So... in short, Bijuu are entities with shitloads of energy and are able to physically manifest their chakra through physical mediums. Thus the reason Kyuubi is seen to be injured in canon- his physical body is. The body is merely a physical construct held together by chakra, therefore it can be regenerated by using chakra channeled through it. The reason Kyuubi is a fox, and not a formless entity, can not be explained through this reasoning.

This is how Bijuu differ from other beings, and why they are so unique in the Narutoverse. No other beings can manifest their chakra to be tangible. If any canon character comes around, and manifests his or her chakra to grab something, then I will gladly kill this theory. But, the best they can do is use their chakra to influence other things, like cut them through the wind element, or burn them through the fire element.

Humans must need to use the elements to channel their chakra into a usable state. That's why they need handseals. They mold their chakra in a certain way, according to a certain element, to be able to use it to stick to walls, walk on water, etc. etc.

Now I'm ranting, so I'll conclude.

Therefore, Kyuubi can't have a single element. Its physical avatar, however, can be constructed and altered to be attributed to one or more elements.

That's my take on things, at least. I still have to come up with how Kyuubi is a fox, or Shukaku is a tanuki, or how Nibi is a cat. Meh.

 

Well, it might be possible that I didn't get everything in your rather lenghty post right at the first time...

Anyway, about the whole manifesting chakra into a physical, tangible form:
If only Bijuu can do that, then what's the deal with the whole summoning business?

I might of course be wrong but if my memory doesn't fail me, Jiraya says something about being the 'Sage from the Spirit Toad Mountain'. So they shouldn't have a physical form of their own.

By calling them, wouldn't you have to let your chakra form a physical body for the spirit to settle in? And even if they really had bodies of their own and all you'd do were teleport them, why do they 'poof' away when they're 'killed'. Then their dead bodies would actually be lying around unless you teleport them back.

So summoning...isn't that actually what you said should only be possible for Bijuu, hence their awesomeness?

Not sure...but do chakra strings count? Puppeteers use them to hold onto their tools after all.

 

Thanks for the translation. I thought I got it all, but obviously I was wrong.