fontisian you're not doing a great job of not looking like a serial killer. Give us a spectrum of reads. Your world view should have been shattered by Tom flipping town, but I don't see any evidence that you actually care about reevaluating the game.

 

Q doing some good work.

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I don't really think scum Q has a reason to clear Eco a bit there.

And Eco has sounded really pure. Like. I'm almost soulreading. :///

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Well that's barring a Q/Eco world but I don't really see that.

 

Praise be, I'm finally on a computer again instead of phone posting.

Time for me to do Jan spew, finally.

 

Read through Jan's posts looking for clues.

#985 really makes a strong case for Miner and Jan not being on the same team. I just find it kind unlikely that someone would say "Fuck that guy or better force a lynch down his throat" about his buddy, unless they'd really screwed up, but it was a pretty poor case that no-one else was really interested in.

#1169: "Von , Cobalt, FLuff, Delphine are just almost always town." -> this strongly tells me that one of Coblat and Fluffy is scum, as the other two are town and Jan would have been very keen to put a buddy on this list. General interaction with cobalt is basically non-existent, but Fluffy always appeared very high on T/S lists without ever really being explained. Another strike against Fluffy.

#2135 - "Math has not evolved their reads a lot after the first 200 posts, but it feels half of the game haven't". There was a decent early attack on Math from Jan, but that didn't really end up going anywhere. I highlight this post because Jan has a golden opportunity here to push MathBlade but just...doesn't and instead excuses MathBlade with generalities. This is a BIG RED FLAG.

There are a number of interactions with Mal as well: it's very jokey early on, and in 2168 "Mal is less impactful as I want to remember, but I feel that my radar on such stuff is a bit off, because there are so many posts on d1, which makes it easy to not remember that much about a single player that was not in the middle of the fighting." which looks like distancing with reluctance to commit. It also excuses Mal in a similar vein to Math by using a reason that could apply to basically anyone.


These obviously need to be taken with a pinch of salt, but there's some evidence here of a Jan/Math/Mal/Fluffy Team. Going to look now at these players individually and see what I can dig up.

 

Compare this post (which I claim indicates Miner/Jan unalignment) with the Mal/Jan early interactions that some (at least he) claimed to indicate unalignment. See what I mean?

I've liked Miner individually, but read all of the Jan interactions, not just this one (including the bit that follows in "this one"). Jan treats him as a mislynch he knows he needs, and yet didn't really have a reason to push yet, and then when he gets a (fairly weak) one he's full speed ahead.

Pretty sure Miner is clear.

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This is, of course, the post I referenced early.

I stand by what I said then - Math is probably town by gamestate and spew, Mal is probably scum.

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Think that's most of the big stuff.

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Well rip. At least half of my post is gone...

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So here we go. Sorry for the wall of quotes, but as fonti mentioned people apparently don't click links in this game, so here we are.

When I initially read this, I don't think much of it, except /maybe/ a /slight/ tick for Jan/Mal unalignment. But then when I gave my Mal/Jan/Vaimes/fonti team at the start of D2, Jan quoted me and made reference to this opener to say that he and Mal had to be unaligned, so I went back and read it in the light of scum claiming unalignment with someone based on it. Read that way, it looks a lot more flat than it did previously. A lot of that is a feel thing, but for instance the "indignation" added to the second Mal quote came four minutes after his first post - it seems significantly more likely that if he had been genuinely indignant that would have come in seconds later.

But even beyond that, they had this weird little back and forth about Mal being the votal guy and ended lightly townreading each other in that unnecessary to really justify but also significant way that scum like to use for their partners, and Jan feeling confident enough about their unalignment that he cited it to try and shake my confidence on my scum team.

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Alright, let's look at this quote now. He mentions Vaimes [town], fonti [probably not town - maybe 3P], Math [?], tom [town], Q [?]. I claim fonti is probably not town, for many reasons previously cited and further because the setup with a 2 shot town vig, an info role, and masons is not balanced against 4 scum with a role blocker (I'm pretty sure).

Moving on from her, he scumreads Math and soft townreads Q. Let's just note that and move on to the next segment.

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So here's why I noted the Q and Math thing earlier. The Math bit is fine - it seems fairly consistent. The Q height in the wall, on the other hand, is a pretty massive stretch for "oh, I like how he's not trying to live up to expectations to have a good town game". Note also the soft townread on Mal and soft scumread on Miner.

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This is one of the best arguments, imo, in favor of town Math. It doesn't make sense for scum to put two of their partners on a two man list and say "there's definitely scum in here" if none of them are in danger of being lynched. Two townies on the list would make sense, but I don't think we're in that world because I don't think Mal is town.

So if we're looking at a list with 1 town and one partner, which we most likely are, then Math is probably soft cleared.

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Hmm. Jan spew kinda points at fonti 3P. Noted. Still probably kill her tomorrow, but yeah, we shouldn't lynch today.

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...I accidentally wrote the damn thing in two tabs. Sorry about that, this is all of the rest (I think).

 

Typh, interested to see what you think about my version of Jan's posts, since I have the opposite view of Math from them (but I agree about Miner and Mal).

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Also I don't see how fonti is spewed 3P. It's pretty clear Fonti and Jan aren't on the same team, but scum wouldn't know if fonti was 3P or just Town.

 

Note on Eco if you haven't played with him before - he's quite good at this. I'd advise against clearing him for tonal stuff. Look for blips in thought process if you think he's scum or POE him, but I'd advise against directly trying to read him, at least in that way.

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On your Math read (stemming mostly from 2135, I think) - it did ping me a bit, yeah. I justified ultimately having a town read on them to myself by saying that 1. the wealth of Jan/Math interactions pointed more firmly towards s/t than s/s, and 2. the post you linked happened after I had a back and forth with Jan in which I was not subtle about the surety of my Jan read after not mentioning him at all yesterday.

Given that, I give less weight to the things he said after that interaction at the start of D2, and more to D1 things. There were more relevant D1 things anyway, to my eye.

But, like I keep saying, I wouldn't be flabbergasted if Math was scum. I'm just not in a hurry to make that lynch - might as well get the people we are sure of first.

As for fonti, I'm just saying Jan's posts probably point towards unalignment. I have an /exceedingly/ hard time believing that town fonti plays a game like this - as I said D1, I don't think arguments about her being wrong hold any weight. Shit happens, people have bad games.

It's more how she was wrong - this is a game where her mindset makes no sense as town, but does as scum (or non-town, I guess). I don't feel like she's been interested in figuring out the game, but rather in figuring out justifications to lynch the people she needs to lynch, if that makes sense. It's not a blatant "look at this scumslip" sort of thing.

That, and the setup in a world with town fonti seems super townsided, which I kinda doubt is a thing?

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Just shout up if you want anything from me, but I'm not really sure what more I can say about fonti. If there are specific bits you take issue with, let me know what they are and we can discuss.

I will say in advance I prefer her lynch tomorrow, though, if that changes your desire to discuss things.

 

OK I read back through Fluffy's posts, and I'm of the opinion that Fluffy is incredibly likely to be scum.

To summarise, Fluffy has passively sat at the periphery of the game throughout. Fluffy has asked a load of questions that were mostly clarifications (and therefore not adding content) and were never followed up on. Fluffy has provided VERY few concrete reads and voted infrequently and only for popular wagons (Tom, Jar, Fonti, hot-new-PoE-read-cum-OMGUS-attack Eco).

At the end of Day 1, Fluffy "contributed" three vote counts (1152, 1689, 1759) with no comment or analysis. This is classic active lurking: posting words that have no value under the guise of being "helpful". He joined the Jarizok wagon literally because Jarizok told him to and not because he thought that Jarizok was scum (although he left it open ended in 1624 "I believe in lynching scum, and am not convinced Jarizok is scum."). At no point did he try and analyse Jarizok, just posted a bunch of "Boy I sure am confused posts!" until someone told him what to do.

In 2010 onwards (2579 most recently) Fluffy votes for Fonti despite being dead set against the Fonti wagon D1 (saying he hated it and calling everyone on it scummy in #1762). Why? Vague, neutral-hunting fearmongering like "I'm kind of worried about the scenario where font is a non town kill role, which is a scenario where we can't really afford to give her another shot?" from 2117 (tempered again in #2147). This complete 180 on Fonti is so incredibly flimsy and convenient: the read has gone from "do not think fonti is scum, also think many scummy people are voting for them" to "oh no fonti might be a neutral! But maybe not but we should totally lynch her anyway right guis??" This isn't an organic change of opinion, it's an opportunistic, hollow attempt to get a free lynch.

Fluffy's posts have almost entirely been, well, fluff. Minimal reads. Only trivial questions. Only short posts. No commitment. No engagement. No analysis.

Vote His Fluffyness

 

I think the context of the day is really important when trying to read into Jan's "spew". I'm pretty sure it looked like a free mislynch to him from early on (tom) to late in the day (jarizok), because even I could see it and felt helpless to stop it. There was almost no reason for a real push elsewhere.

Also consider the context that Miner has had fonti hard defending him the entire game. In the world where fonti is town and miner is mafia with jan, what better to do than go hard against your partner with ~no risk of them getting lynched? That could be game winning based on an interaction where neither had any intent of actually pushing/lynching the other, afaict. And you seem to note that too with the "no-one was really interested". I just want to be really careful here.

On fluff (with a side of cobalt) yeah, that is a lot of townreads to just be town. I've found them towny today for like the first time all game. I hardly know his meta and it seems like people are setting a low bar for him and it's hard to tell if he's been legitimately spewed or miscleared.

On math and mal - I think your interpretation is better than Typhon's which I will quote here:

Typhon, you cut out a really really important part of Jan's post there. That wasn't Jan reading mal and math in a vacuum. That was all in the context of a fonti post and what their alignments would be if fonti was scum.

Here is the entire post for clarity:

There's absolutely no implication for either Mal or Math's alignment from that post. Jan had no connection to those reads and certainly had no reasonto prefer associating any of 0/1/2 scum to town fonti if it was reasonable to do based on fonti's reads (it was). It was a hypothetical world in which he was not living/pushing.

Please be careful guys but I think we're on the right track.

 

dLGN: Can I get a readlist, and in particular your opinion of Fluffy?

 

I gave a brief list last night.

On Fluff - I'm frustrated that this game has set such a low bar for him but the people who know him insist this is his town play. Von seemed confident in it. Typhon seems very confident in it.

He certainly could be mafia and I hardly have a strong read but I think his contributions today re: mal seem towny and pretty casual. I don't think Fluff is bussing going for the long game and rn mal looks pretty bad so...? But if you're town and mal is town he's virtually always mafia, yeah?

I laughed pretty hard at this post btw

Would be appropriate if this solved this shitshow of a game.

 

Looking at 2620, so you did. You also said you'd be fleshing those out today so I'm going to have to poke you for that.

I'd rather something more specific. Ignore the meta argument put forward by other people. Take the game as a whole, not just Fluffy's last few posts. I want a gun to your head, overall read. Is Fluffy Town or Scum?

What makes this game a shitshow? We could be in a better position, but it's nowhere near hopeless yet.

 

You're kidding, right? We lynched a guy because he asked us to. I get that you weren't there but the game has been terrible so far. It's devoid of logic.

I don't have anything more specific on Fluff. He screams easy target to me and I find it unlikely that he has fooled the entire game except for you but it happens I guess?

 

Oh yeah. D1 was stupid, I'll grant you that.

How can Fluff be an easy target if everyone apart from me has dismissed him as Town?

 

Because he doesn't seem like one to really resist but that's just a guess. Like if he's mafia I kind of expect him to roll over just based on the little I know about him. If he's town I kinda expect the same thing. I don't know if I can tell the difference.

 

The trick is to get a read on him before he gets wagoned then, isn't it?

 

First off I didn't bus in TH. Q bussed in TH.

If you want to see a scumgame of mine where I bussed go look at HP mafia.

Fun fact, it worked. Sort of.

Q, I meant that your posts this game do not feel familiar to me. I realize that building meta off one or two games is a terrible idea, but you just sound different.

Also, I'm pretty sure I was on my last nerve for politeness/patience when talking to Jan and I was making an effort to hold myself back.

I like fluff this game but I dislike the way that so many of you are clearing him. fluff's towngame takes literally no effort to mimic. Like, I'm convinced that one of these days we're going to get rolled by scum!fluff playing exactly the same way he plays in every game.

Will be around for maybe an hour, feel free to ping me for questions.

 

What is it you like about Fluff this game, and what do you think about my case against him?

 

What do you expect to read? Sometimes a potato just is a potato no matter what lens you use.

I think if we're going to vote him today is ideal because we have a ML. I'd just feel like I'm snuffing out a puppy.

 

I mean I provided a whole readlist and explained reads when people asked me to elaborate, and I was null reading fonti D1 while scumreading people voting her. At no point was I "dead set against her lynch".

This post is reaching so badly its kind of sad.

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