Ah well. 'Twas fun while it lasted.

Interested in fluff's Jan vote.

More interested in what tom gets out of his reread.

Most interested in how/why Typhon is getting such polarizing reads. I think that's critical, and where we should start trying to truly game solve.

Not really sure which side to believe on the Typhon spectrum, but I do believe a Typhon flip would be very useful.

---------- Post automerged at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 PM ----------

Cobalt is just... weird here. It doesn't smell like his previous scum games, but it's also just extremely off the way he interacted with people disagreeing with and calling out his reads.

---------- Post automerged at 11:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 PM ----------

Also I'd like to seriously bid for marketplace owner.

Afaik I'm fairly town read at this point, but I'm clearly not the strongest town player around, so me eating a night kill would actually be pretty ideal. I'm also willing to follow whatever we decide to x4 in the night, and will bid 499 on hitman to force scum to pay up or lose the ability.

 

oh fuck, this game is a thing

unfortunately I'm literally going to pass the hell out so I'll check in tomorrow.

when is phase end?

 

Ok. First step is reading the OP. I also cheated and read some of the early mechanics posts.

There are 2 roles with a tangible, absolute effect. Day-kill and Cop.
Godfather is a counter to Cop, but the kill has none (Bulletproof and Commuter both specify "night")
4 roles only useful for us - Bulletproof, Cop, and both Doctors.
4 roles only useful for scum - Godfather, both Hitmans, and Ninja (barring town buying a second role to hide an ability from a scum Tracker/Watcher, which is ridiculous).
7 information roles - both Auction Detectives, Cop, Gravedigger, both Trackers, Watcher.
7 roles that could change the numbers - Bulletproof, Day-Kill, Commuter, both Doctors, Jailkeeper, Roleblocker.

I would prioritize information roles early. In fact, were I elected I would increase the odds of Cop/Tracker/Tracker/Watcher. If we focus on getting information into the thread, we will have better odds later in getting good use out of the protectives/Day-Kill, and helps increase the odds of getting that information before Godfather/Ninja/Roleblocker roles show up to muddle things.

I also don't think we should be trying to take scum roles from them. Yes drive up the price. Yes it's better than dying with a full wallet. But letting them keep their money to screw with us later is... not ideal. They have more individually, but less total. Forcing today's lynch to bid the max on Hitman is a sound idea in theory, but it deprives us of the EoD we truly deserve and doesn't really account for people just bidding what they want.
Hell, someone already outbid me for Neighborizer.
Which brings me to the Neighborizer roles. Their only utility for scum is to fool someone so completely they give them useful information. The benefit for town is potentially much greater. But I don't need to talk about that right now.

I've done some maths on optimal spending per day but scrapped a lot of it when I realized I couldn't actually account for deaths. But I do think info first>protectives later is the right way to do it. And that people shouldn't be so married to max bids even for very strong roles. A bid of $300 still takes enough of a mafia's money to beat that they can't auto-outbid us for something like Day-Kill, and if you win you still have something to play around with later for any weaker roles that might show up.

I continue to believe posts about mechanics are not alignment indicative. This one was pretty great but I could do the same thing as scum. And that's not even a Tom thing. That's just a thing. Mafia players can talk about mechanics with their eyes closed. They don't even have to fake it. But yes, the discussion probably has to happen.

Elect me. Or just elect someone you actually trust is town that will pick all the info roles that aren't Auction Detective.

 

Popping in before bed to say I appreciate you dropping the gimmick, Miner.

That's all - there are other things to look at, I see, but I can't be fucked tonight. Toss me questions if you want to see where my head is; if not I'll be around again tomorrow.

 

Fonti is still alive.

 

This, in context, remains the towniest post of this game. Everyone was content to just fluff and talk about plans/mechanics. Vira broke MIRVS (Mechanics Infused Random Voting Stage), and it was good.

---------- Post automerged at 22:30 ---------- Previous post was at 22:28 ----------

And this, I think, is a good interpretation of that Vira post. It's not what I'm townreading Vira for, but it does add to it.
And I don't like Typh continuously pushing that it's something else:

Nor do I care for this underlying "don't hate me because I'm voting you" since being voted back by scum is just... the best.

---------- Post automerged at 22:30 ---------- Previous post was at 22:30 ----------

I don't like this. Because Typh already implied that they would be NK candidates when talking about electing an Owner. So why minimize the use of neighbor chat? Sure, those are strong players. But the less time you have with that the less chances for a tangible benefit. Like, they're probably fine for Owner if you think you can trust them, because they get to make a good choice then give it to someone who has a higher chance of being town.
But I'm not buying the threat of early death not influencing his choice of Neighbor targets.

---------- Post automerged at 22:35 ---------- Previous post was at 22:30 ----------

Jan also didn't like this Jarizok post.
And... yeah it's bad. He doesn't seem to have a read on either. But he's just willing to accept a throwaway read?
But unless yall think its a perspective slip (aka he knows Fonti is town and wants to sheep her) I'm not sure how its scummy. Scum make bad plays to lynch someone. Not to take away the option of lynching a newish player doing something weird.

---------- Post automerged at 22:38 ---------- Previous post was at 22:35 ----------

This bugged me enough to right click to open quoting it in a new tab, but I'm not sure what to make of it.

Hey Rubi. Why is that important?
Like, I'm assuming this is a joke but is it a reference to something? Is it dead serious?

 

https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showthread.php?p=761069#post761069

It's a joke, but also sort of serious?

I have no read on fontisian at the moment.

 

Toms post has some truth to it, but not all of it is.

I am in the weird spot where I don't want to talk about everything regarding abilities.

I think bulletproof should be picked for tomorrow in addition to a mostly information heavy lineup.
You should only bid for bulletproof if you are in a spot that is more likely to die in the night.
People who are very townread or people who are a big danger to scum if left alive.
The bid itself does not need to be 500. Low 300s is enough. if scum want a role that is useless to them outside of the fact that they take it from town, so be it. Make them pay enough that they have trouble getting the really good stuff.

2nd most important ability is watcher.
Not only for watching a mafia killing someone, but as well to force mafia to make less optimal kills.

With both bulletproof and watcher out there, they will have trouble just killing straight down the townlist.

This is an advantage we shouldn't underestimate.

2x tracker is fine as well because it has 2 charges. Rule of thumb - more charges should be on the market earlier.

I personally would argue for auction detective as well. It forces mafia to either stay in line with their biding or risk getting tracked.
Downside is that it only gives the info for the previous day, but you can get leads on other peoples alignments with the info.
I won't go into detail here because I don't want mafia to know how to behave in those cases, but there are differences in likely spending behavior and forcing scum to somewhat stay in line is not bad. (the easiest case is has said person paid more than 500 for an ability).

Daykill is maybe useful d3 onwards, maybe only d4 or not at all. It comes down to
a. did we get a save at any point in the game -> daykill becomes good
b. Do mafia have the currency left to get the daykill.

Without any save the daykill is not as useful, because it will just put us on even numbers, which is where scum want to be most of the time.
Include to the the fact that a save can happen later on as well, which can make the daykill good again.
In the end daykill is a lot of risk vs reward.

Important to note that IF daykill is out there, then the person with the daykill either claims it before they shoot or they are confirmed mafia. (Unless the shoot a mafia, but we don't want blind hero shots. claim first shoot later).

Copcheck gets better with less people in the game, I think, which is why I would push it back to d3.

Right now my picks would be
1x Bulletproof
2x Watcher
2x Tracker
2x Auction Detective

A valid case could be made for 1x cop as well, which would be likely to replace one of the bottom 2 roles.
I personally prefer good 2x roles tomorrow.

If most information has been used by n3 (assuming we get some of the one times roles out the next day), then the commuter is a good role to get for the last day as well, if we have a spot left.

/mechanics off.

---------- Post automerged at 08:08 ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 ----------

I am hoping that we will get something out of you soon.

Maybe reasons for why you picked such a flawed t1 list?
(keep it short enough, we need more than mechanics from you)

And some reads .. spicy ones if possible.

 

Is this you agreeing with Typh's read on Rubicon?

---------- Post automerged at 00:06 ---------- Previous post was at 00:04 ----------

This Fonti shade is noted

 

tom I'm thinking of accepting Vira as town because it feels like maf are correctly townreading her for towncred.

At the same time I like Typhon better because he's not townreading her.

Thoughts?

 

Minor thing, but scum making this post almost always makes a super awkward joke with it.

---------- Post automerged at 00:14 ---------- Previous post was at 00:10 ----------

You should be townreading Vira because of her posts tbh, but whatever gets you there.

Typh is townreading her. Unless that changed in posts today that I haven't read yet. And he did so as soon as was convenient for his push on Rubicon.

 

Those are some useful thoughts. I thank you for them.

 

1 - why does that look w/w?
2 - this paragraph is mrgle
3 - this is a pretty townie thought though. since as scum he can just choose someone else to do that with. Maybe even (god forbid) me.
4 - do you not have a scumteam to call that doesn't include two people who you'd be surprised if they were w/w?

---------- Post automerged at 00:27 ---------- Previous post was at 00:25 ----------

A moderate number of my thoughts are useful.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So I keep stopping at Cobalt posts and... like they're pretty bad. But, well, that doesn't seem to be alignment indicative for Cobalt.
I need actual thoughts bro.

---------- Post automerged at 00:32 ---------- Previous post was at 00:27 ----------

This is a great read. I mean, its a waffle I guess. But the "play harder" ultimatum is real. And... yeah. Jan is using OOG knowledge to lessen the impact of the read, which doesn't really make sense to do as scum regardless of Fonti's alignment.

---------- Post automerged at 00:33 ---------- Previous post was at 00:32 ----------

Time for a waffle of my own:

So I like this response. But I don't like only picking out the thing about you in a giant post.
Oh wait did I do that too...

---------- Post automerged at 00:35 ---------- Previous post was at 00:33 ----------

What's the difference between opportunistic and reacting?
What opportunity was Miner seizing on?

---------- Post automerged at 00:36 ---------- Previous post was at 00:35 ----------

Seeking clarity to try to read Newcomb?
Or trying to divert him elsewhere?

I can't decide!

---------- Post automerged at 00:37 ---------- Previous post was at 00:36 ----------

This I unabashedly like though. Even if Cobalt is town.

---------- Post automerged at 00:39 ---------- Previous post was at 00:37 ----------

Yes! I missed this post too and it's not even mechanical.
Koalas light town for turning that back on me but just sort of floating it.

---------- Post automerged at 00:40 ---------- Previous post was at 00:39 ----------

Pretty much mindmeld here. Though it took me longer.

---------- Post automerged at 00:46 ---------- Previous post was at 00:40 ----------

Ok this is just the end of the exchange and not a particularly meaningful quote, but this whole conversation with me/Jan/Jari just felt like some townies shootin the shit figurin out the game.
Like, we are probably the 3 most free flowing players in this game anyway. But it just felt good.

---------- Post automerged at 00:47 ---------- Previous post was at 00:46 ----------

Ok thats 5 pages done. Calling it a night.
Or at least calling it a "done reading and thinking for now" and I'll probably watch Elementary and pass out.

 

In regards to me using my oog knowledge of fonti visiting friends. That is null either way.

As town I am just honest.

If she is town and I am scum then she knows I know about it and me not using it might come back to haunt me in form of fontis fist.

As scum with her I would distance while giving her an excuse to not be around for a while.

 

I don't see that. It just feels like your case is shifting and your conf!bias/tunnelling rather than developing a read.

Given that your content on most others players to this point has been pretty low at best, it feels like the tunnel exists more as a show than a serious case.

---------- Post automerged at 08:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 AM ----------

Damn, and people say I reach back far into past games to dig stuff up, haha

I think Rubicon's position in my wall kinda indicates my feelings on him at the moment.

To more specifically answer your question, yes and no. Yes in that I was (am) LS on Rubicon, but I'd already voiced that prior to the Typhon post I was responding to (which was #86 )

In my post #60

Although after that exchange with Typhon the (still unanswered) question I asked of Cobalt in #186, was a question I'd been throwing around in my head since #60.

In the Koalas case, Koalas hadn't even gotten into the game other than a "hi" post, and it just felt like Miner was throwing a little shade to effect perception before Koalas even posted.

In the Cobalt case, it just felt like a bit of a bandwagon vote given Miner had expressed some prior thoughts on others, but then followed Jan's vote on Cobalt without reasoning.

Given that both posts came in a 2.5 hour span that was just over 20 posts, and he didn't follow up on either, it bothered me.

Miner since clearing up the Koalas thing as a joke reference makes me feel a bit better about the situation however.

 

I don't think Jan makes this post as scum. I'm drinking the koolaid here - unless something pretty major happen, I'm hard-townreading Jan.

---------- Post automerged at 08:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 AM ----------

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

That's not particularly spicy in the bold sense, but it is pretty damn close to what I'm thinking, so I don't really have any complaints there either. Swap our names and you more or less have my wall as of your post, except with Koalas probably more in the grey than the orange for me.

On Koalas, I see your point, but also I kinda (irrationally, maybe) feel that way about most people who are voting me for having the same style/tone as as the last time we played, so it's not really a thing that I'm confident about my objectivity on.

Just toss me Vira when you get the chance, if that's cool. I'll keep an eye out for it. I think she's the only person who I don't understand your placement on sjnce you were town reading her before iirc. I assume you probably went through a similar process to mine?

---------- Post automerged at 08:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:05 AM ----------

So you only had time to cover three non-me people, and you chose two of them to be Cobalt (less posts than the mod) and Fluff (same thing).

I mean.

Surely those two don't shape how you're viewing this game in a significant way?

Vira, on the other hand, is a good choice of player to talk about, but... your actual analysis makes no sense? Her sheeping pleases you, but your high place in her wall doesn't? Are your position and tom's position the only problems you have wifh that well?What on earth does "right kevel of curious mixed with dumbtell" even mean in game terms?

I'm going to just completely throw what I said to Waco out the window now, because you should be orange after all.

Unvote, Vote: Kalas

In other news, no one has joined me on Jan, so time to move on to Waco for now, I think.

Unelect, Elect: The Waco Kid

---------- Post automerged at 08:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 AM ----------
Cobalt phase end timer is here. That's ~36.5 hours from the time of this post.

If at all possible, please pop in a few times before then and give us some meat to base a read off of for you.

---------- Post automerged at 08:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 AM ----------

This is a post acknowledging Tom gave us content and appreciating that.

I'll probably sit down later today and try to work through his posts and sort him, but I don't really have that much to say at the moment about them after glancing through them. We disagree in a lot of places, but that's not surprising.

---------- Post automerged at 08:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 AM ----------

And... that's it.

Thread's dead baby, thread's dead.

---------- Post automerged at 08:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 AM ----------

I'd give you guys a wall, but mine is literally Waco's at the moment, with his name filling the spot of mine. That's subject to change after I think about Tom for a bit, and it's probably worth noting that I agree with Jan in that we probably shouldn't lynch Jarizok D1, but the tiers are good.

 

Ahhh. I see we had some miscommunication here. When you said you wanted someone to bounce ideas with I assumed you had some you actually wanted to bounce.

When you wanted me to start I was a bit confused but whatever, decided to start with the bare bare basics of players and see if we're on roughly the same page.

Instead you're incised that.. I didn't post a readwall I guess. For this thing I'm doing to help you center yourself. So guess that was a failed attempt.

As for Vira.. you're being obtuse? I felt like I saw something in your posts. Vira agrees. This pleases me. I don't think us agreeing on that is enough to have me second highest townread or tom being third. These were more pressing concerns then why fonti was below Cobalt or whatever else on that read list. "Right level of curious mixed with dumbtell" is exactly what it sounds like. Genuinely curious about the Doctor/Hitmen interactions while showing a lack of thought about said interaction not characteristic of scum ie dumbtell. Reading comprehension is harrrrrrrd.

---------- Post automerged at 11:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 AM ----------
tom to be fair if you hadn't commented on that soon I was planning on coming down on you like a ton of bricks

---------- Post automerged at 11:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------

Also Typhon have you been reading old games or something? The posting has noticeably changed from earlier/153.

 

Not sure if you're throwing shade here or not, but I'm going to take it at face value and assume not. Fake edit: you are, but I'm leaving what I wrote anyway.

Let me run through what I've said before (here and in other games): there's a certain style I start games with. Sometimes, like you did earlier, people call it narrative, or over-explainy. I pick up that style because I'm trying to get a feel for the game, and it is helpful for me (and I'd assume everyone else if they'd quit seeing it as some sort of show and realize that you're actually seeing my real thinking process on display in the thread, but nevermind that) in thinking things through. When I'm centered, my style changes because the way I can see the game changes.

But like, it's not like changing hats and I just decide when to do it. It's not a choice of which style I'm using at the moment, it's just a process I go through. I could probably try to not, but that's going to make me sound forced which is going to defeat the point of being natural and genuine.

When I talked about bouncing ideas earlier, I mean what I implied with the neighborizer thing - in addition to a town circle helping to center me working through the game, I'm at my best when one or more people in that town circle are equally engaged, and we can bounce ideas and hash out reads such that we temper each other's reads.

(This is my equivalent of Newcomb's Vaimes statement, and it's actually usually Vaimes for me too - consider my last two games. SVM he and I never really jived, and I played the worst game I have in some time, whereas in TH7 we were hard town reading each other halfway through D1, and I played quite well, I think.)

What I was hoping for from you is that you'd give me a sort of "state of the game according to Koalas" post, I'd give you a "state of the game according to Typhon" post, we'd see where we were on the same page and we were not, and we could work from there. It wasn't the perfect solution because I didn't/don't trust you, but it seemed to me a better plan than flailing.

Regardless of the miscommunication, I can't understand why town!Koalas would pick Fluff and Cobalt to talk about. Of all of the players in the game, there is by far the least to say about them, and it's pretty impossible for it to end in anything besides "but shrug".

As far as Vira goes, I don't see why that wouldn't be enough for you to be honest - it's the main thing either of you have talked about (scum!me), and she's been pretty straight-line in her thoughts so far as I can tell. And be snarky if you want, but "right level of curiosity mixed with dumbtell" isn't really a thing I can see here? Like, I think it's a stretch to characterize Vira' s judgement as "genuine curiosity"; maybe a dumbtell, but. I guess thats not really a point to get hung up on, though, I'm not arguing terminology again right now.

---------- Post automerged at 10:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 AM ----------

So, with that out of our system I guess, what does a Koalas readwall look like?

 

Villgery popin

I'd like to thank you all for not completely blowing up the thread and making it impossible to catch up.

I'll be diving into this after work today.

Re: that meme to Typhon. I was making fun of him using a bunch of jargon in that long post, especially the phrase ">EV town"

Villagery popout

 

The main meat of my arguement on your posting is that it does not read naturally. It has in past games but this one does not. Previous posts were getting back to that but this one fell flat.

Regardless town!Koalas picked those three for a reason and left content there to get the ball rolling.

I'm not sure what you mean by "enough for you to be honest".

I can read wall in a bit.

---------- Post automerged at 12:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 PM ----------

We're not in sync. Am disappoint.