DLP ate my post >.>

I don't like looking at games I wasn't a part of. They don't stick with me. I was obs in both those games but I was paying zero attention.

I was never doubting that this was something you had been doing for a couple games. I'm saying that, to me, you went from a textbook town style to one that is a lot more obtuse. I was trying to get into the mindset behind it. Did this have a progression in mind or is this developing an alternative playstyle that's easier to fake as scum? If the second is that this game?

131 pinged me. People agreed. Others disagreed. That'ss normal. More disagreed. Little doubt. Some people I thought agreed with weren't, others dropped their support. More doubt.

You were never getting a 'tonal shrug lynch' whatever your posting status.

 

Reasons not to be a fonti. by Jan

I don't think fonti has a lot of actual content. Therefor a lot of this will be me calling out mechanical mistakes and blunders, which she needs to answer for.

No. Bad! *sprinkles water in fontis face*

Scum do not need to know which person just became vt. (hitman will almost always priced around 500 and is useless for town.
This just makes it easier for scum to reduce towns money by killing the people who either got useful stuff or still have money left.
Both of which are bad. If a town would get that role, they should not come forward unless there is a really good reason to do so.
(most of this point is invalid because of Newcombs proposal, but it is still bad).

Add to this the fact that fonti says :

Considering that town!fonti always believes to die early on, there is no reason for her not to bid high on the hitman right from the get go.
Worst case scum get it, best case she gets it and scum have no reason to kill her (if she outs).

She proposes things here that you might be able to argue about and then does not follow through.
First strike.
(I did not realize this last part until right now, but knowing that hitman was at 0$ half way through the day and she would never in a million years go for doc, no way she did herself what she was talking about here.)


Moving On :

Let us argue about this.
Daykill, will being a priority to get for town is as useful for scum and therefor should not be in the early round. In no world ever should that be a thing.

Jailkeeper is .. ok?
It is only 1 shot and the only upside to it is the roleblock part. Useful for both sides, not only for town, which makes it less valuable for town.
You could argue about it, but I think bulletproof on a person that is within the top3-4 towns is way more valuable.

The trick here (in case I am dead when the bulletproof comes around) is that only a circle of like 3-5 towns are allowed to bid on it and they all have to bid slightly more than 300.
If scum wants to outbid them then they can't get another item for 500, but on the other hand scum don't know which of the mentioned towns has it which makes killing between them (or using a hitman when killing between them) always a gamble.
This way scum is left somewhat unclear and the town that got it still has some money left for a later item.
This paragraph was not so much about fonti .. just guideline in case I die tonight.

Moving on. To talk about fontis priority list we have to make one ourselves, right?
Ok Let's do that.

(Going into details about mechanics and priorities for the abilities. Feel free to ignore the spoiler unless you have questions about my thought process on the parts following after them)

Spoiler

Technically we only need the top 8 and make an order out of those. Maybe I am wrong. We'll see.

Let's start by removing the scum only roles :
Godfather x 1 : You appear as "Not Mafia" on Cop reports, regardless of your actual alignment. Must select a night to use it.

Hitman x 1: Scums Night-kill will ignore any ability that would stop the kill from working. Must select a night to use it.

Hitman x 2: Scums Night-kill will ignore any ability that would stop the kill from working. Must select a night to use it.

Ninja x 2: You may choose which of your visits (if any) will appear on Tracker and Watcher reports. Must select a night to use it.

4 roles total.

This was the obvious and easy part. From here on out it will be a bit more subjective.

Strong roles that have two uses should be picked.

Watcher x 2 (Targeted): Choose another player. You will be informed which players (if any) visited that player during the Night.

Auction Detective x 2 (Targeted): Choose another player. You will learn all of their bidding history from the previous day phase.

Tracker x 2 (Targeted): Choose another player. You will be informed which players (if any) that player visited during the Night.

Doctor x 2 (Targeted): Choose another player. That player will be protected from the night kill that night.

here you could argue about the Auction detective, but the really important part is that this ability becomes useless d5 onward, and is always stronger than the 1x use.
Even if you don't think this is the strongest ability (it is in my top 4-5), that alone means it should be on the list before d4.

On the list before d4 means the auction detective is always in the top 8


Adding the roles that are strong for town only with single uses :

Bulletproof x 1: You are protected from the first Night-kill that has targeted you. Bulletproof is countered by Hitman.

Cop x 1 (Targeted): Choose another player. You will receive back a report of "Mafia" or "Not Mafia".

Those are the obvious two - the next two are weaker but still good roles for town only :
Tracker x 1 (Targeted): Choose another player. You will be informed which players (if any) that player visited during the Night.

Doctor x 1 (Targeted): Choose another player. That player will be protected from the night kill that night.

Next step : Roles that are good for both alignments, therefor should be picked after we reduced scums money a bit. (Forces them to decide to let us get most of the other stuff or let us get those abilites)

Day-Kill x 1 (Targeted): Send me a private message with an order to kill someone during a day phase. That player will die.

Weaker roles that are good for both alignments :

Jailkeeper x 1 (Targeted): Choose another player. That player will be protected from the night kill and also unable to act.

Roleblocker x 1 (Targeted): Choose another player. All of their Targeted abilities that they activated for that night will fail.

Commuter x 1: All abilities that target you will be roleblocked. Commuter is countered by Hitman. Must select a night to use it.


That leaves 4 roles who are mostly utility. Can be used by either side for fun and tricks, but are in most cases not as strong as others.
Auction Detective x 1 (Targeted): Choose another player. You will learn all of their bidding history from the previous day phase.

Gravedigger x 2 (Targeted): Choose another player who has died. You will learn of all the abilities they had when they died.

Neighborizer x 1 (Targeted): Choose another player. You will receive a QT upon daystart where you may talk any time while alive.

Neighborizer x 2 (Targeted): Choose another player. You will receive a QT upon daystart where you may talk any time while alive.



The only reason auction detective one is part of the last group is because you can argue his worth and while I think it can be as useful as a copcheck other people might argue against that.
(it would be broken if it would show total bidding history)
It is still a perfect candidate to pick n3 so you can see who was bidding what on d4.

The top 6 here should be something like :

2x Watcher
2x Tracker
2x Doc
2x Auction Detective
1x Bulletproof
1x Cop

Those are the most valuable roles for town that have close to no value for scum.

After that you have
1x Doc
1x Tracker

1x Auction Detective

1x Dayvig
1x Jailkeeper

1x Roleblocker

Those are hard to argue for and against.
Roleblocker is amazing lategame (with 1 scum left). block 1 person if there is no nightkill you know you have a scum and if there is a nightkill you have a greencheck).
There are ways to circumvent that, but it is still a good ability.

Jailkeeper is the same, but it can save and block, which means you don't get the check because you would not know if the person got saved by you or was the culprit and you blocked them.
I would argue that Jailkeeper is worse in this game almost always. It just sounds fancy and has a bit more utility.

Anyways .. enough spoiler talk

Not 100% conclusive with the list. I think Jailkeeper NEVER belongs in a top list.
It is a cheap skill someone can grab in the end and maybe rise and shine thanks too it.


The only reason fontis priority list might be a little bit better is if what she means by it is "skills town should try to get all the time and go all out on to prevent scum from getting them".

Even in that case
a. Jailkeeper no thank you.
b. 1xdoc/cop are not usefull for scum and they will not go out of their way to get them.
They might bid on them, but paying 500 for a single copcheck is only useful for them if said scum will gets lynched anyway.



This is a case that is hinging on her lack of mechanical understanding, which she does not have.

One more thing about my earlier point of her not bidding on the hitman when it was her proposal to bid on it early and with full force.

She realized the thing Newcomb said 3 hours into d1. Her first post was 5 minutes into the day.
If she wanted to do what she was proposing then she would have done it.

This is not the strongest case in the world, but I need those things explained and I need her to get in here and take a stance.


I did not quote any of her 5-6 posts with a little bit of actual content, because it was nothing to me.
Her early townread on miner was too fast, but I think she has done that before as town so there is no actual point to make.

I forgot one point that should remove one excuse for her :

I do not think this would have been a good pick in any world.

It gives scum the dayvig (always), which they can use to blast 2 people back to back (n2 kill and d3 dayvig), removing a lot of money from town and increasing the chance to hit the person who got the cop-ability.
+ they can use the jailkeeper that night to possibly hit the cop or doc to nerf town even more.

Add to that the fact that most of the 2x roles are way stronger than the 1x roles.


There are so many mechnical flaws in her plans (that still look very good on first glance) that I have trouble believing town!fonti would come up with it.


I hope people can comprehend most of my thought process here .. mechanic talks can sometimes be a bit complicated.

 

I'll give it another read in a bit but I follow the mechanics talk. Thoughts on that being one of the few things fluff commented on?

 

I don't think it is indicative of anything.

I mean .. the only question is would I rule out w/w which I don't?

The question itself does not mean that much. If he does not ask that then everybody would just assume her top priority skills are the ones she would pick as marketplace owner.

 

Not ruling it out but it does seem an odd choice for fluff's few posts in a w/w world.

 

RIP, losing a post is the worst.

And ehh. Your theory is that I changed my playstyle a couple of games ago to elevate my non-existent scum game by nerfing my town game? Despite the fact that I openly hate playing scum? I'm... probably too close to this to treat that objectively, but someone that isn't me should consider this. I know I bitch about rolling scum all of the time, and almost certainly did when we rolled scum together, but it's hard for me to decide if those are things that you would think about in trying to read me or not.

(For what it's worth, I changed styles because I changed activity levels. I was never going to be a driving force in games as I was - my old style didn't work in a high volume way. I wasn't being mislynched, but my genuine contributions were sporadic. Here, I'm in the mix of things, and capable of elevating town to victory almost singlehandedly if I'm seeing the game well. And it's more fun, honestly. Maybe there are growing pains involved, but it's worth the endgame.)

131 is your post - presumably you mean 153?

If so, let's look at what you said (this is probably going to be lengthy, but I want to get everything out in the open where we can look at/talk about it, so bear with me. Actually read the spoilered text):

Spoiler

First you toss shade at me with Newcomb's meme, and then you say in explanation

Then Jan gives his townread on me (stemming from me throwing down a Conan picture and saying I was out to win here), and you push back with

Then I respond with an explanation for the tonal differences (mobile vs. keyboard posting, trying to find a toehold vs. thinking I've seen a tell), and you say

I tried to explain things from my perspective again, and you said

Later, after we have our miscommunication or whatever over us bouncing ideas, you sum up your argument as this

Recently, you were here

Which you followed with this

And that's it until the Jan post and the start of this conversation.

Okay. So maybe it was wrong to characterize it as a "shrug" lynch (except not really because you were voting me for tone and it had nothing to do with my content which you presented no sign of even particularly considering, and hadn't moved off of me or seriously explored another scum read since the second page), but I think it's impossible to argue that it wasn't a wholly tonal lynch vote.

And in some instances that's okay, but you had your vote parked on my for multiple real life days. Are you honestly telling me that Koalas, who is allegedly town and is trying to solve this game, couldn't do better than "I feel like Typhon's posts are needlessly wordy and rambling, so he's probably scum. If not, my next highest scumreads are Fluff and Cobalt."

Seriously? I'll buy your read on me as something that pinged you, but I don't buy it as something that a town player is content to have as their only argument against their only serious scum read.

This would be the part where I vote you, but alas, I already have. Have a meme instead.

---------- Post automerged at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------
Jan I'm probably not voting fontisian today because I feel like lynching someone who isn't here is a lazy out for the day.

With that said, I did read the post, and I will continue to consider your thoughts on her, so don't worry about it being forgotten. I do agree with your list much more than I did hers, FWIW, and I appreciate your reasoning.

Still concerned about you getting Marketplace Owner and dying, but at this point I think there's enough difference between your towniness and Waco's (and I feel like I know where your head is enough mechanically) that you kinda need to be the owner anyway.

Unelect, Elect: Jan

 

Typhon Why did you never try to get yourself elected?

 

If Cobalt is mafia and the rule of applies then his partners are?

Fonti ... and Rubicon or Jari?

Does not have to apply to both of his reads, it could be just one of the three.


Like ... I am really annoyed that we have someone like Acio on the sidelines because the game was full and 3 people at the end of d1 that are not capable of having more posts then the mod.

Sure stuff gets in the way .. but chances of three people having other stuff being so important while not actually giving a heads up in thread or asking the mod for a replacement?!

Sadness.

 

I haven't been a collective town read. If people didn't feel like I was top town, they shouldn't vote me. If someone asked me to I wouldn't object, but no point in fighting a pointless battle.

---------- Post automerged at 11:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 AM ----------
Jan let's consider someone who is here. What do you think about Koalas and what I posted? Does that resonate with you at all? Do you have a better lynch candidate among the active players?

 

Something else people can do if they want to is leave suggestions on who the next owner should be in case I die tonight (and I become owner of the marketplace).

Not promising anything, but you know .. the answers might be fun and all that.

 

It's just, you elected Fonti in your second post.

According to the guidelines you set for market ownership (towniness and the ability to follow the plan) you should always have made a platform for yourself, because you're the surest town bet out of all of us from you perspective, and I'm sure you think yourself capable of sticking to the plan.

Furthermore, Fonti is not the first person I think of when I think of sticking to the plan, unless it's her own plan.

 

Jarizok, actually, since you're here, what are you thinking? Like, obviously your vote is on tom, but do you have a case for that or is kinda like Jan where your vote was a throw away pressure sort of thing and you haven't moved it? If the latter, where are you looking now? How do you feel about Koalas?

 

You didn't know up front you weren't going to be townread. That argument only hold up with a priori knowledge.

---------- Post automerged at 18:46 ---------- Previous post was at 18:44 ----------

My vote on tom is legit, but it's a tone read. He's not as noticeable as he has been in the past games where he was town. I noticed the same about him last game and he was maf then.

---------- Post automerged at 18:47 ---------- Previous post was at 18:46 ----------

About Koalas, I'm not surprised he's not throwing out reads left and right, we had to basically beg him to throw out an opinion in AYAW 4. He was town then.

 

Ok, now that I finally have free time, I can start reading. Yay.

Does anyone else find the Miner and fonti interaction weird, especially with miner's 32?

fonti proposes a bad plan that miner immediately backs up, after which fonti immediately calls him town. I'm not sure that w/w do this, but it still looks bad for both of them.

 

Right, but my perspective gets me exactly one vote? I've been townread by a handful of people, but broadly speaking everyone who thought I was town thought Jan was town more. I'm equally pleased to both have and not have owner myself, so long as it stays in hands I trust and I think they will be intelligent about what they pick.

When I voted fonti, I voted for her in a show of support for her tone of "we're going to make a fucking plan and we're going to stick to it and I'm going to make sure of it because I'm going to carry it out myself". That's a tone that I emphasized with, having been through some games here that fell to shambles because people ignored the agreed upon plan, and not the way I expected scum!fonti to approach things. 80+ hours later of mostly inactivity because of busyness or whatever that's not a thing that matters anymore (it barely mattered then), but it was the first thing I liked.

I'm not sure I understand the line of questioning anyway. Is there a reason it matters whether I put myself up for owner?

 

Never had a strong read on him either way.
Will make a list os suspects/candidates. Won't order them for now.


The groups for todays event are :

Not today :
Jarizok
Typhon
Vira

I might listen to a good case :
The Waco Kid
Rubicon
Newcomb
Miner

Sure. Maybe?
Koalas
Tom

Low hanging fruit (that should still die at some point or step up their game by 476%) :
Cobalt
Fontisian
His Fluffiness


Top top and bottom groups are fairly obvious and explained my stances on the players in them before.

I don't trust my reads on the other 6 people enough to lock them in as town right now.

Koalas was around and pushed something I disagreed with. For a long time.
I am unsure if scum!koalas would stay on the same path for this long or just look for another target. Tunnelvision is a towntrade for most people.

Tom is .. I like him more right now than in games we played before. Mostly curious what Newcombs rock solid case is bringing to the table.
I can see a few comments by tom as possible attempt to pocket people, but I liked his catch up for the most part.


Newcomb .. I want to give him a daypass for coming back and trying unless there is a really good case.
There is no way I let the three Stooges live until d2 and the guy who told us ahead of time that he wouldn't be around at the start, still did some work at that time and is trying to do work now gets the noose.
That is no town pass, but a stellar performance compared to the people now known as monkey business.

Miner/Rubicon - somewhat of a gut townread but nothing strong enough to keep them alive forever.
I think I would kill Miner before Rubicon just because I think the scumteam would do whatever they can to keep their teammates alive this game.
And if fonti is scum (which I think she is 75% of the time) then that would be a not unlikely partner.

Leaves Waco...
Waco .. I think he is town, but I don't know why.
I think he wants the neighbour thing which means he should not be the marketplace owner .. bad combo.
Losing the possible qt for town as well as the person who ran the marketplace would be stupid.

Which means if i get to own the marketplace you should not create a qt with me regardless of how much I would love to have one. Unless you like living on the edge. Some people do.

/thoughts.

---------- Post automerged at 18:59 ---------- Previous post was at 18:58 ----------

I love you. Just a little bit.

 

*continues sheeping fonti*

 

It matters because, according to the requirements you set forward, you're always your own best candidate but you never even threw your hat in the ring.

You might say you didn't think you had sufficient mechanics or whatever, but you voted for Vira later on, who showed she wasn't all clear on this what with her "doctor isn't good", so obviously that's not a problem to you either.

 

And yes fluff I think w/w would do this.

getting the wolves in a strong position regarding the marketplace owner is the most precious thing there is.

Imagine scum!fonti becomes the owner and puts in
Dayvig, ninja, 1x doc + randomrole that is not the cop.

She can still blame bad luck for ninja showing up and noone could blame her. Chances of cop showing up are very low, same for other information roles, which means as long as the scumteam gets through that day which is likely, she can manipulate another roll and town is down 5 people which puts the game at 5 vs 3.

One more misslynch and the game is over.

The key in this gametype is that there is a snowballeffect.

The side that gets lynched loses money. The side that has the owner has an increased chance of their goods showing up.
Two things that are likely to effect the game in their favor.

This snowballeffect is insane because if we lynch scum d1 then we are unlikely to get a lot of the abilities we want today, BUT the scumteam loses 1/3 of their total money. Add to that the fact that they most likely want the 2x hitman which means it leaves them with 1099$/2400$ if we lynch correctly today.

Losing a single town is not as bad for town as losing a scum d1 is for them, which is why I think they are likely to somewhat align if possible.

 

its 2400 vs 5000. It's more important to elect a town owner than to lynch correctly. Like, ideally, you elect town owner and lynch a scum, which would almost be gg right there, but we need to make sure we elect town as owner.

And if it can't be me, then it better be Jan.