I take credit for this.


Anyways, can we like... have some actual wagons?

 

Summary/little SoC in spoilers.

Spoiler

Page 1:


RVS miner interactions.
RVS Vote on Rubicon
Tongue in cheek response to Jari wrt miner/Waco w/w
Responds to fonti on Jari
More RVS miner interactions


Page 2:
RVS Neighbourizer stuff
RVS
Waco on Rubicon slightly for Vira doctor stuff (Jari also there)
RVS
Reasonable mechanics post wrt to money. NAI
Goodnight post


Page 3:
Return post. Quoting Typhon wrt Rubicon reasoning, asks Jan about Rubicon
RVS with a slight downplay of dumbtells (agreeing with miner)
RVS stuff with Jari, playing off intial miner joke. Goodnight post.


Page 4:
Post 183
Non Rubi reads Jan/Typhon t. Likes my push on Jari, decent question directed at Cobalt, doesn't understand my thought process on Typhon (reading me or the thread?). Half joke(?) suggestion to Jan to elect him.


188 kind of a weird response to Vira on Jari. He liked my case, understood but didnt like hers? Vira was washy to an extant. Challengers tom on Jan/Rubi nulls. Consistent with previous reads. Checks in with Jan on New.


191 weird response to a full quoted wall post. Elect me, Jan opinion on New noted/he'll think about it later.


193 mild push on miner with regards to doubts on me, vote on cobalt


192 to 196 was an interesting stretch. There's an inconsistency between Rubi's question to Waco, Waco's response and Rubi's response to a similar quesiton to Cobalt. Looks worse on Rubi


195 is kind of generic reasoning but it isn't incorrect.


199 the follow up on team interactions feels a bit out of place. Another goodbye post.


Page 5:
Nuthin


Page 6:
252 mild response to Jari vote on him, prompts miner for more wrt to me, discuss miner with tom (miner lacking explanation, gimmick NAI) goodnight
296 More focused push on miner, meme-y Jan response


Page 7:
302 is there


307 Like his response to typhon, mostly follows what's he has been saying thus far. Cobalt bit isn't unreasonable but far from the best part of the quote. Continues pressure on miner. Asks fluff for reads.


318 read wall has no surprises from what he's posted. Well chosen quotes on me. Work thing.


320 Answers my question, leaves for work.


335 comments on me follow thought process so far, joke with rubi, good interaction with tom in his case wrt rubi and miner


Page 8:
387 hockey game, inactivity notice, plan for ownership information then protection, decent response to Jan over some legitimate concerns


390 Meme (for rubicon elect vote)


392 rainbow confusion and goodbye


Page 9:
Nuthin


Page 10:
489 mechanics talk with jan wrt potential roles. I disagree with his analysis (auction detective) but waco mentions a black box so.. who's to say.


491 obvious statement on market owner (also an issue kind of out of there hands?)


500 Meme


Page 11:
508 calls Jan and typh to notice postcounts, kind of associates himself with it in a weird way?


511 ties Jari slowing down postcount to scum and himself again


514 game summary of previous game with high activity Jari


Fin

Thoughts:
Reads have remained kind of static throughout the day though given he hasn't really been talking since page 7 that's somewhat understandable. Overall though he's remained consistent with what he's saying, everything logically following previous posts. Admittedly this isn't incredibly hard D1 but it does reflect well.


On the less positive side he managed to build a consistent if low key case on his RVS vote.. which is weird. Not the norm. Miner interactions also read like a push but one without pressure. In a PR game I'd say he though he'd stumbled onto priest and was trying to back off but here I'm not sure what to make of it.


Also the 'reason' for his mechanics talk should be explained. I really don't think information should be going out before protective roles for some fairly obvious reasons but he seemingly has a case to disagree.


Tl;dr He's good for D1 but if the consistency starts slipping or the reads don't expand (or just expand into easy consensus ones) you have a problem. Alignments should be kept in mind wrt his pushes.

---------- Post automerged at 06:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:39 PM ----------

Alright. I need to jet to work. On the off chance this does something.

Vote: fontisian

 

Okay, here's why I think tom's mafia here.

I originally had a lightbulb moment at a very specific part of this post:

First of all, here's what you need to understand about tom as a player and how he approaches both alignments. It's actually less important for this first initial point, which I think is just a scum thing in general and not a tom-specific scum thing.

Tom isn't a classically "serious" player. He plays primarily for entertainment. As town, he plays first and foremost to entertain himself, and secondarily to entertain others. He's not a complete goofball, he does know how to do actual analysis and reasoning, and he does like to be right, but those are not his primary motivations as town.

As scum, he takes pride in being good. He's made a name for himself as someone who's both successful and creative as scum; he enjoys the fact that he has a basically unlimited scumrange, which is, I think, a direct quote from him.

The key to understanding the difference in tom's game is understanding his motivations. As both alignments he has an agenda. As town, he frequently gimmicks up; his agenda is to have fun, to entertain himself, to entertain others, and to win, pretty much in that order. As scum, gimmicking up is not about fun, or at least not at all primarily about fun, it's about the agenda of getting townread. The primary goal is to win.

Back to the post that tipped me off -

This really struck me. I swished it around in my head, and I really think that this particular sentence just Does Not Come From Town.

It's subtle, but think about tom's mindset when he's asking me that question. The issues in play, from his PoV, are:

- Newcomb said his scumteam was Jarizok/Rubicon/Koalas

- Newcomb said he'd be surprised if Jarizok/Koalas were w/w.

So, there's something to poke at there, right? Essentially there are two threads. One, you can think it's a non-malicious contradiction, in which case the angle you're looking at is something like, "what are the relative strength of those reads? Which one trumps the other, when it comes down to it?" Two, you can think it's a malicious contradiction, in which case you're coming at it on a sliding strength scale from (1) "That's a contradiction that I think town!Newcomb would have explained or delved into" to (10) "Town!Newcomb does not make that contradiction because <reasons> Vote: Newcomb."

We got Door Number Three, which was just... shade without bite or curiosity.

"do you not have a scumteam to call that doesn't include two people who you'd be surprised if they were w/w?" is just not a thing town says when genuinely considering the issue.

It subtly implies that I don't, while at the same time lacking any kind of drive to get into my head. It's just shade. It's just mudslinging. It's just... not town.

So, once I saw that, I started looking at tom in depth, and I noticed a trend. This is where an understanding of tom's motivations as a player come into play.

Spoiler

So. Let's talk about the overarching threads here.

The two biggest threads I see are:

1) An unnatural self-awareness of time and space. What I mean by this is that tom is focused, very focused, on the perception of what he's doing and what he will be doing. Count how many times he talks about needing to do something, or what he's about to do, or what he wants to do. Town!tom plays to the crowd for entertainment, scum!tom plays to the crowd to look towny. I believe this is the latter; town!tom would have less motivation to talk about his own activity/reasons/future actions, whereas scum!tom thinks it looks like some combination of casual, filppant, and invested, probably with a dash of preemptively calling out his own lack of activity.

Notice, in particular, how he stresses this "too cool for school" mentality in his opening posts, "reading mechanics is lame" type stuff. Constantly talking about skipping them and how they're not alignment indicative. This is combined with a kind of resignation to read them in the future, and the culmination is a longish mechanics post of his own. That kind of progression has a lot of scum motivation behind it, to borrow a Reg phrase. Because, see, it's mostly about appearances. He even talks about running some numbers in his QT that were ultimately useless because of NKs or whatever. While simultaneously acting all casual and la-dee-dah about mechanics, he still takes great pains to hint / outright declaim that he's working on them himself in a protown way. Which ultimately strikes me as much more likely to be theater than to be an actual town approach.

2) A strange dichotomy between the strength of his reads. While being self admittedly "hedgey as fuck" - see how he treats me and fluff, with straight-up, no-frills fence sitting of the "I want to townread but also could be scum" variety, he's also preternaturally confident townreading players such as Jan, Vira, and Waco. There isn't a spectrum, really. Either tom has a solid, confident townread on you, or he's a giant waffle. While every player is different and games have to be approached on their own merits, this strikes me as a pretty unnaturally developing gamestate for town!tom here. I would imagine we'd see more of a spectrum if this were a genuine town trying to solve the game. That is, there would be a range of confidence in his null/waffle reads, it wouldn't just be this continuing churning cycle of null.

What I think has happened is that tom's good enough to know what the "scum keeping mislynches open" archtype looks like, and is avoiding that trap by giving confident, blase townreads on a section of the game. Potentially hiding a partner in there just for style points, but, one step at a time here. This lets him - in his mind - get away with keeping open the mislynches he needs to win. His fluff comment, in particular, is practically clearing for fluff if tom flips wolf.

The most stark example of this is his readslist. He has like six sentences talking about Jan's solviness, finishes with "I'll hear no more of this internal tinfoiling," but then ends the list with this:

It's a bit too schizophrenic to seem real, in the same post. The confidence and self-awareness to talk to himself out of purported "internal tinoiling", with a giant self-aware disclaimer that he has a history of getting pocketed. Again... it comes off more as theater. Something tom thinks sounds towny but when you pick at it, doesn't really hold together being very likely to be part of the same internal chain of reasoning.

All in all, I stand by my 75% read. I feel like tom is moderately >rand to be a wolf this game.

Vote: tom

 

This is me except I feel confident about Newcomb and Waco and don't know why anyone townreads Vira.

 

In too much pain to catch up. I'm sorry.

Read Jan's mechanics post. We need the doc, Jailkeeper and Daykill roles early, while there is more tiwn money to spend on them. We also need cop early to ensure that it is used on a potential mislynch and not killed/taken by scum. All of these have counters that are only valuable to scum when they come out first.

The person who got hitman, if not the lynch. Is important, and actually better than Newcomb's plqn, but now pointless because I have to explain it, because it clears them. No scum, excepting tom maybe, would claim it and the manner of the claim is important.

Auction Detective should not be boosted until later, when 300 bids can be seen, outing mafia and controlling behavior. It also shouldn't be talked about, but here we are.

Despite fucking all of this, I think Jan is toxn, because he knows I'm sick and pushed me anyway, and I don't think he has the heart to do it. Will sheep his vote provided it is not on Miner.

 

Get better soon Font.

 

I disagree with parts of this, I think, but that's immaterial for this day. I'm not lynching fontisian today full stop.

Going to work through Newcomb's tom post now.

---------- Post automerged at 04:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 PM ----------

And feel better fontisian, that sounds miserable.

 

Feel better soon, fonti.

I agree with this.

(Still working through the rest of the post.)

 

Lynch Vote Count 1.8

Jarizok (2): Fontisian, Vira
Fontisian (2): Jan, Koalas
Tom (2): Jarizok, Newcomb
Typhon (1): Tom
Cobalt (1): Miner
Rubicon (1): The Waco Kid
Jan (1): His Fluffiness
Koalas (1): Typhon
Vira (1): Rubicon

Not Voting (1): Cobalt

Player Currently to be Lynched at Deadline: Jarizok

Elect Vote Count 1.8

Jan (8): Jan, Vira, Miner, Newcomb, Koalas, Typhon, Jarizok, His Fluffiness
The Waco Kid (3): The Waco Kid, Rubicon, Tom
Fontisian (1): Fontisian

Not Voting (1): Cobalt

Player Currently to be Elected at Deadline: Jan

Day Ends in 4 hours of this post when that countdown link expires.

Please remember bids will no longer be eligible within the last 10 minutes of each day phase.

Also please do not post once the deadline expires. Flip and Auction Results may be ~20 minutes late.

 

tom this game is all about portraying how unsure/bad and not into the game he is.

Spoiler

The comparison to his town game in SVM is stark (I just picked some early examples here, we're still in D1 after all):

Spoiler

You can make the argument that he just had a better handle on SVM than this one, but it's not the case that he has a lower post density or disagrees less with people in this game that's making him so mellow.

Instead he makes sure to comment on people's reads but he just never calls them out for it, he's avoiding conflict.

Spoiler

This very similar to how he played last game, where he was scum, constantly hedging his bets, asking open ended questions rather than confrontational ones.

Spoiler

His wording in this post

was what really got to me though. Referring to yourself and 2 others as "3 townies" like this stuck out to me immediately. It's unnatural. The emphasis is not on how good the talk was, but more "look at how townie we were being".

I saw Newcomb's post by now and I know mine pales in comparison, but it is what it is.

 

I've never seen such a varied vote count.

Why is Fluff still on Jan? Didn't Fluff backtrack on his Jan read after Jan said his reads were out of date?

 

Obviously the aim of fading into the background while being active is to not get lynched. That's just pervading all of tom's posts this game. I know I did it again, just letting a bunch of quotes speak for themselves. I rephrased and scrapped the post a bunch of times and there's still barely anything of mine in it. I just feel like my words are so superfluous when the material is just there for everyone to see.

 

Hm.
/10chars

 

Finally.

Ok Newcomb.

You said a contradictory thing and I asked about it. And you weren't around. How does that equate to whatever it is youre assigning to it?
Like, you said theres something to poke at. I poked. So, like, what?

I'm pretty sure you know self-awareness is not unnatural for me. And this point makes me want to omgus you.

As for my reads... they are what they are. I would love to have solid scumreads. And to not have to question my townreads because I have too many. This is not what's happening here.

Listen. That bit about how I play the game isn't too bad. You've been trying to figure out a way to read me for awhile now. And this aint it. The self-awareness part is particularly terrible. But I do think you're trying. And I don't make it easy for you.
So tell me which of my townreads is wrong or let's lynch a lurker.

 

Lol, never actually removed that vote.

Unvote

 

Correct.
I have absolutely avoided conflict, and do not want lynched.
What the fuck is your point?

 

Unvote

Unsure. Feels bad. Gonna do a litlle reset and rethink things.

 

tom This is the most confident you've sounded all game. It's natural because you're talking about your own alignment and all, but where was this attitude before?

---------- Post automerged at 00:22 ---------- Previous post was at 00:20 ----------

My point is that you don't care about this as town. You do your thing, get in people's faces. You claim we're always scumreading you anyway so might as well try and get some reads right?

 

Classic tom. And not the town tom who would talk about fake reads but actual give reads (even if they were fake). The other tom.

 

That's not to say you don't mind getting lynched as town, you do, but since you think it's inevitable you'll be scumread you've not been afraid to go full out in the previous games I've played with you. But you were last game and again this game.