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HP Questions that don't deserve their own thread V2

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Sesc, Oct 22, 2014.

  1. lopeck

    lopeck Groundskeeper

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    I don't think it was ever said if she brewd the poitions herself. Howerver, in the pensieve scene at the Gaunt hovel she is shown casting a spell.

    Dumbledore also said she stopped using magic once Tom Riddle Sr. left her. So she was clearly able to perform magic.

    Whether or not her lacking skill is due to a nonexistent education is never established in cannon.
     
  2. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    So, horcruxes. This is another one of those "Am I missing something?" type questions.

    First, let me explain how I understood horcruxes to work based on canon (i.e. the books). I haven't seen HBP or DH movies, so I can be fairly sure nothing from those has affected my thoughts, though fanon might have crept in.

    Voldemort made different 'kinds' of horcruxes.

    The locket, ring, diadem, and cup I think we can safely classify together. Magical items. My understanding from the books was that these affected the mental state of those in close contact with them, wearing them down to the point that the horcrux could possess the person in question (much like his original soul fragment possessed Quirrell, though a horcrux was not in play in that case). This much I thought was at least implied in canon.

    What followed from that in my mind was that once the soul piece had moved out of the horcrux and into the person, the horcrux could be hidden again (and if he was killed while possessing someone the soul would return to the horcrux - this explains why the item itself must be destroyed). That probably isn't canon, it's just how I read canon once I gave it some thought.

    Voldemort also made living horcruxes in the form of Nagini and Harry. There are various reasons why Voldemort might have had control over Nagini but not Harry, ranging from Nagini being willing, to not being sentient, to not having her own soul, etc. Harry was an accident, didn't agree, and has a soul of his own. But that's beside the point. This sort of horcrux seems stupid at first glance, because Nagini isn't immortal. When she dies wouldn't that horcrux die with her?

    Then we get to the part that has been running through my head. The diary doesn't match any of the above, and on the surface that makes sense. It was the first one he made and he was still a kid when he made it, of course it wouldn't be as streamlined.

    ...except from my perspective, the diary looks to be one of his best designed horcruxes, along with the ring and the diadem.

    Someone might wear the locket once but then store it somewhere before it had a chance to take hold. The cup presumably wouldn't be in close, regular contact with a person. The diadem and ring were good choices for anyone who knew of their magical abilities, as they would want to wear those full time. Harry was an accident, so ignoring him. Nagini as I said might die and screw him out of one.

    But the diary is the only one that has a personality able to convince the victim to return him to life. It can offer the victim something in the form of knowledge (even if they aren't a lonely little girl, Voldemort as a teenager likely had knowledge a lot of adult wizards wouldn't and was a master manipulator). And it actually appeared to be able to return him to his own body, with his own soul (magic debatable). NONE of the other ones hint at doing that. Even if was able to control someone mentally, coming back to life would require (apparently) a ritual not unlike the one we saw in GoF.

    So did canon ever hint at any of that? I know that he picked the Cup because of it's association with Hufflepuff but seriously... the horcruxes he'd need to stay hidden unless he died, at which point he might actually want one of them to be found so he could revive.

    Or is the simple answer just that the horcruxes were never meant to be used that way? And he wanted them to always stay 100% hidden? In that case I guess the diary was too 'obvious' and that would explain why he didn't like it.

    It just seems like the diary was the most complex, useful horcrux in canon. Could be hidden or used to revive him. So what made him abandon that style?
     
  3. Goten Askil

    Goten Askil Groundskeeper

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    I don't think the diary is very different from the others (except the living ones, of course), not in the way the Horcrux itself works. The only difference I see is that the diary was enchanted so that it was possible to converse with it directly. Even then, maybe the others were too, since the locket could talk after being opened, and we don't really see any of the others' "behaviour" longterm, they're destroyed too quickly.

    But anyway, the diary is unique in that it is meant as a weapon as much as a safeguard, specifically designed to be found and used (pretty sure it's why Dumbledore guesses there are others).

    IIRC, Dumbledore says in HBP that the Horcrux feeds on you when you grow emotionally close to it, which is obviously easier to do when you can regularly talk (or write) to it, but it's not the only way. I don't know about you, but I always use the same glass at home, at every meal, every day. I wouldn't say I'm emotionally attached to it, but I'd certainly be annoyed if it was broken, and I am annoyed when someone else uses it. And it isn't even a magical glass more than a millenium old and with potentially exceptional magical properties, so I can imagine it working for the Cup.

    For the pieces of jewelry, this attachment can come by way of familiarity: the more you wear them, the more you think of them as an integral part of yourself. See how Harry forgets he is wearing the locket when he goes for the sword in DH.

    All this to say that I don't think the diary is the only one able to take energy from someone, just the least insidious one in making contact. And when they take this energy, I don't see any reason to think they wouldn't be able to gain life of their own the exact same way the diary nearly did. We just never have the occasion to see another being in prolonged contact with some unsuspecting bystander. The locket was able to talk once opened, after being worn and potentially fed for monthes.

    Totally agree about that, I think he wanted a sixth one quickly after learning of the diary's destruction, and he intended to make another when she died, after the war.

    I do think you're mistaken when you say Voldemort would have been revived in his own body at the end of COS. The way the Horcrux looked like young Tom and the way Voldemort didn't even talk about it in GOF makes me think it would "only" have been the Horcrux being given consistence, not the Master Soul having a body back.

    This I've never understood. Why do a lot of people think Voldemort needs to have a Horcrux on hand (and even sometimes to destroy/consume it) to get his body back? He didn't have any with him in GOF, so it's perfectly fine to keep them hidden away forever, that doesn't prevent him from being revived if he is somehow "killed".
     
  4. Jarizok

    Jarizok Auror DLP Supporter

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    The Horcruxes serve to keep whatevers left of Tom's soul tied down to earth. It's that piece you need to put back in a body, so I agree that no Horcrux needs be present for resurrection. I'd go so far as to say that the horcruxes are prints of Tom at the time of creation (see Diary) and, given their own body, could act independently of LV.
     
  5. Majube

    Majube Order Member DLP Supporter

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    I think I've seen this in a fic before (Cup), but I've always thought that horcruxes could also work like poison or venom, respectively. ex. drinking out of the cup regularly might slowly drain your soul.

    And also having a pet snake and it biting could transfer it too.
    In fact, from the books only the diary experience with Horcruxes seems like a normal horcrux.

    I think a typical horcrux would be slowly tempting the victim to pour more and more of themselves into the horcrux until they're strong enough to just grab the soul drain them.

    In any normal circumstances, the horcruxes wouldn't need to be practical. He had seven of them. Seven versions of a powerful, charismatic, and manipulative dark wizard.He made them all before he ever heard of the prophecy and after he kept Nagini beside him at all times as his backup plan.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
  6. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    Not remotely, if I'm honest, lol.

    Not what I meant. He wouldn't get his older body back, but it seemed to me like he was going to get a body back of his 16 year old self. A body which could then go and revive his main soul fragment.

    I don't think this, and never meant to imply that I did.

    What I meant is that if you skip ahead 500 years into the future, and anyone (like Pettigrew) who might want to help him revive is long gone... having something like a copy of your 16 year old self wandering around to revive you would be damned useful.
     
  7. Meerkats

    Meerkats Unspeakable

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    I don't know if it's just me but I never thought about the horcruxes in that way.

    Both the ring and the locket were hidden in relatively unknown places that were hard to stumble upon and were heavily guarded, so it never seemed like their main purpose was to corrupt their wearer into bringing Voldemort back. If he had his way no-one would have found them anyway. And then there's the fact that he gave the diary and the cup for safe keeping to his most trusted death eaters.

    I think the idea was that after Voldemort died, then his death eaters had a way of bringing him back.
     
  8. wordhammer

    wordhammer Dark Lord DLP Supporter

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    We're not shown how the ring was defended, only that Voldemort went looking under the floorboards when he rushed to check up on it. In the case of the locket, it was placed in a cave surrounded by Inferi. If Voldemort had 'respawned' there, he might have been able to possess one without interference from a native intelligence. I have a number of theories related to his use of horcruxes, but the one thing I can mention that relates solely to canon is this: twice his spirit was drawn back to Albania when it lost its tether. The next horcrux he made was a snake. Seems like he was trying to solve a recurring problem.
     
  9. Meerkats

    Meerkats Unspeakable

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    I don't have the books on hand so I can't double-check, but didn't the ring have a curse on it that would kill its wearer?
     
  10. Shinysavage

    Shinysavage Madman With A Box ~ Prestige ~

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    Unlikely, given that Lucius used the diary as a weapon - he wouldn't have done so had he known it was a piece of Voldemort's soul. Bellatrix, possibly, might have been entrusted with the knowledge, although Dumbledore does make a point of mentioning Voldemort's preference to work alone. Personally, I'd say that the sole function of Horcruxes is to keep Voldemort from truly dying - anything else is just a useful bonus.

    Yes.
     
  11. Odran

    Odran Fourth Champion

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    Did Snape know about the curse on that DADA position? If so, why did he want it so badly?
     
  12. Peter North

    Peter North Dark Lord

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    Yes he knew of the curse, but he wanted the DADA position because the Dark Arts and it's defense was his first love followed by Potions.
     
  13. Shinysavage

    Shinysavage Madman With A Box ~ Prestige ~

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    To be fair, we don't now that he explicitly knew there was a literal curse on the job, but given that by the time he took the job nobody had lasted longer than a year for about twenty five years, and he's an expert on the Dark Arts, he must have had his suspicions. Either a) he thought it was worth it, b) it was all part of a long con to suggest that Snape didn't have Dumbledore's full trust, or c) perhaps he wanted to take the job in the hopes that something fatal would happen to him, as penance for his actions? Bit wangsty-fanfic, but eh.

    Question of my own: how long does Polyjuice Potion last once brewed? The trio run around the country from summer to spring using some they stole from Moody before leaving, which would seem to render it a bit less of a trial to brew - it might take months to make, but that's surely worth it if a cauldron full of it can then last for a year?
     
  14. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Chances are he knew and took into account when he chose to take the job. Remember that Dumbledore lost his hand before the start of the year, which was about the time he and Snape came up with the plan involving the Elder Wand. They both knew that the curse wasn't immediately fatal, either, so they both expected him to kill Dumbledore, get into Voldemort's good graces and become the master of the Elder Wand all in one fell swoop. All the while playing the curse to their advantage.
     
  15. Peter North

    Peter North Dark Lord

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    I don't have a direct quote from HBP but Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort placed a curse on the position of DADA when he went to ask Dumbledore for the position of DADA professor.

    As for the time it takes for Polyjuice to wear off Hermione says it only lasts for an hour in The Camber of Secrets.
     
  16. Shinysavage

    Shinysavage Madman With A Box ~ Prestige ~

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    Yeah. I'm not sure when that meeting took place, but it was just after Dumbledore became Headmaster. He was headmaster when Lupin started at Hogwarts, which was around 1971, so I went from there and, IIRC, 1995 for HBP when Snape actually gets the job.

    As for the Polyjuice, I know it only lasts for an hour once drunk, I mean how long would a cauldron full of it last? Moody makes some for the Seven Potters thing, which Hermione steals to take with them on the Horcrux hunt, and they're still using it at least at Christmas when they go to Godric's Hollow. That's six months out of one batch, unless we're going with the idea that they managed to brew a new batch in a tent, while moving camp site every day.
     
  17. Quiddity

    Quiddity Squib ~ Prestige ~

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    Aekiel

    Snape wasn't supposed to be master of the elder wand. Dumbledore's plan was for his willing death to mean that allegiance to the elder wand died with him.
     
  18. Warlocke

    Warlocke Fourth Champion

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    How often were they actually around people? Out of that amount, how often were they around people who even knew who they were (i.e. magical folk)?

    What happens in the forest, stays in the forest.

    It's not like they had to use polyjuice, alone, in the middle of the forest. A good-sized batch could have lasted quite a while if they only used it when absolutely necessary.

    And if, say, they went on grocery runs in the muggle world, sending one person is less conspicuous than all three of them going, so even if they did use polyjuice to do so, it could just be one dose, instead of three.
     
  19. vlad

    vlad Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    While true, I think the question is what is the expiration date on a batch, not how long will the supply last. Crouch either didn't brew a big enough initial dose, or the potions potency is only useful for so long once the potion is made.
     
  20. Shinysavage

    Shinysavage Madman With A Box ~ Prestige ~

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    Exactly. The biggest limitation of polyjuice is the lengthy brewing time, but if you can brew some up six months in advance and it still be usable, then that's less of a consideration.
     
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