Sorry I can't be the thread analyzer you deserve. :V

idk when you're gonna wake up, but I'm going to be pretty slammed for the next twelve hours. I'll get to it though.

 

Replies.

I’m replying to someone else’s argument. Why am I the only one at fault here?

I posted the votals in the thread so I could come back to them later to examine. Here’s what I learned ten minutes after posting them:

At the beginning of Day One, Vaimes was comfortably on the Miner wagon with you, and sometime before the Delphine claim, he had wandered somewhere else and came back on. I think I remember him switching to Owner afterwards.

On D2, he along with everyone else was on Kalas. Two other scum (Rubicon, Jari) were also on that wagon. After Kalas got shot, everyone split on Rubicon and Atum. Vaimes and I stayed on Rubicon for the entire Day while Atum got knocked off.

D3: he and I were again on Rubicon, but he Unvoted for some reason, then jumped back on and stayed there.

Finally on D4, he was on me for a long time (not the entire Day, but long enough that I noticed he was weirdly still there after the mob had ditched me). Originally Kai was there too before he withdrew. I don’t think Vaimes was vote parking, I think he was just away from the thread. I don’t know who he jumped on between Delphine and Jari after that. My votals died at this point because why.

Oh, so much information! Vaimes and I have… similar voting history?!

Why the fuck did I bother.

As I said in post #3715 and this one, what has Vaimes done? Substantially done. Like, I glanced at your reasons for townreading him and yes, I will get to those in explicit detail in like an hour, but they are weak as fuck. I really hope your big post does more than that.

Also it’s hilarious how as soon as Vaimes’ flip from Cobalt to me is called unnatural, he suddenly considers if Cobalt is scum in multiple posts despite saying the game is solved and I’m scum.

I did start a Vaimes re-read, but watching him absolutely refuse to explain why I’m scum outside his angel argument and get a pat on the head for his troubles has fucked my motivation. It hasn’t given me any hopes you’re going to listen me and if we lose, it’s your fault, not mine. I spend five hours a day on this game trying to keep up with the thread and keep town from walking off a cliff, and I’m kind of over it.

“Guys, don’t lynch Delphine!”

Lynched.

“Guys, don't lynch Miner!”

Double lynched.

“Guys, don’t lynched meeeeeee!”

…

I’m tired.

I got up to early Day Two in my Vaimes re-read. This is the one post of note:

And it will.

And I can’t do anything.

Honestly if we were still on D7, I’d have lynched Cobalt over Vaimes. Not so much of what he’s done, it’s just that at that point I didn’t really know his scumgame so maybe this is how he would act.

I also agree his initial reason for turning on Vaimes, that Cassandra scumteam guess I made, wasn’t all that he made out to be. Owner and Kalas were dead and I was going to get Rubicon lynched next, and I backtracked on Vaimes on D3. Like, it’s cool now and I will bask in its radiance post-game, but it’s not Twilight Zone-shit.

But I agree with his other points. If you told me that you thought Cobalt was scum rather than me and Vaimes, then I’d argue. Vaimes behavior toDay has been bad, especially regarding this angel thing. If Cobalt was scum he only had to turn against me to win. The fact he’s taking the harder route shows he’s thinking about things.

Uhhhhhh.

Witch Hunt 7, one year ago. Town Gambler. I was Leeroyed in the middle of D1 by a town Loose Cannon who thought replacing out was below him. I posted a lot in angelchat.

Witch Hunt 4, three years ago. Town Loose Cannon. I apparently replaced out.

“Warlock” Hunt, six years ago. Town Dirty Old Bastard. I was apparently killed at twilight or something?

 

Yeah, I am objectively worse at scum than Cobalt is. He got to F3 on DLP, I never have.

So clearing him based on his scum meta is ignorant at best, dishonest at worst.

---------- Post automerged at 14:03 ---------- Previous post was at 13:57 ----------

You also played in WH3!

You were the Recluse.

 

Yes, Vaimes, it is impossible for you in the history of the universe to get to F4/F3 as scum on DLP. It's not like we lynched your scumbuddies one after another before Reg forced us to mislynch town-cleared Delphine and Miner three times.

And clearing you on your scum meta isn't?

---------- Post automerged at 01:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------

What the fuck is the Recluse.

Seriously?

---------- Post automerged at 01:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------

Did I replace in? I see I've posted in this thread.

---------- Post automerged at 01:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 PM ----------

Oh, I was a discount Gambler. I replaced Typhon. Okay, sure.

Witch Hunt Three. Fours years ago. Discount Gambler. I replaced Typhon. Game ended in a draw and I made it to the end, apparently.

 

It's bad only to consider Cobalt's scum meta and not mine. If you compare them, you'll see that purely in a vacuum I'm much less likely to be scum than him.

I understand you need to mislynch me to win so I'm not really trying to convince you. Just pointing out it's shady.

---------- Post automerged at 14:31 ---------- Previous post was at 14:28 ----------

I only knew that because I reread WH3 every few months or so. It's fun.

 

I asked you for a recent scum game, but you never gave me one.

And if Cobalt is scum, please tell me why he's not on my wagon and guiding it into the ocean.

---------- Post automerged at 01:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------

That actually makes me feel better.

"Vira, every other player but you remembers these games perfectly and everyone who's played in them no matter how long it's been. It's just you. Your memory is bad. Buy better memory."

 

I linked a recent DLP scumgame above. It'll be a short read; I got lynched D2.

I don't think he's scum! One of the reasons being he benefits more from lynching you before me. But it's important for the others to see how you approach new evidence.

---------- Post automerged at 14:41 ---------- Previous post was at 14:39 ----------

I think most people on average remember their games better than you do.

 

Reading the game.

Vaimes, who was your scummate?

---------- Post automerged at 02:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------

Please don't tell me its Miner.

 

tom, may he soon return.

 

Wow, seven posts within two hours has you convinced! Is it because Vaimes was defending you from the big bad scum? Why do you think Rubicon wrote that post? Doesn’t help him any if he’s taking Vaimes off the mislynch table unless that’s the point.

Like. Have you played scum before? Do you believe scum don’t talk to each other inside the thread because they have a QT?

Jari is bandwagonning. He says outright he’s never seen Vaimes’ scum game but since everyone else is calling him town because of that he will too! An easy road out. The Owner thing is just weak. Hasn’t Owner played with Vaimes before? Shouldn’t she know this already instead of sprouting fluff to make conversation?

And as Vaimes said, those four were clearly in the lynch pool.

I thought we weren’t going to bring up bussing because we both were on the same wagons? Or is Vaimes exempt from this rule?

And you’re right that the “ehhhhhh” at the end of Vaimes’s three sentence read doesn’t stand for him being conflicted, but that Waco is perma town. And are you serious? Genuinely good reasoning? For that post?

Everything you've posted is NAI and I want some actual reasons. Your third point is best but that applies to me too. I don't see you bringing that up though.

Like, I’ve always had a problem with your wording. Even on D1 I thought, “Reg’s all ‘strong indicator of town’ this, ‘very likely scum’ that. This is Typhon all over again and he’s going to tunnel vision random people.”

I wanted to scumread you for it but the last thing I wanted was to wagon you, re-read, then buy the Backtrack 5000 when I decided you were town.

You are telling us that you think Vaimes is town because of 363 words on D1.

 

Vaimes

I think saying you're outside of your scum range is a huge copout.

Do you think Vira is anywhere inside her scum range either?

For EITHER of you to be scum means you've played an UNBELIEVABLY PHENOMENAL game. So clearly, one of you is doing really, really well.

The fact that it very well could be you and you're just saying "no don't lynch me because I'm too bad to be this good" is fucking bullllllllllllshiiiiiiiitttttttttttttttttt.

---------- Post automerged at 05:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:04 PM ----------

THIS IS ALSO BULLSHIT LOL

I got to F3 because you and whoever the fuck our other partner was got MINCED by Day Two when I wasn't even playing actively yet.

So I had no connections at all, especially to you, and I was able to coast on a mechanical doc claim because I was scum doc and I wined the fuck out of not making night kills to claim saves.

There was no way I ever beat Acio and Proph in that F3. It's not some kind of demonstration of how Cobalt is so much better than you. Like... please stop talking like this. None of these are reasons why you aren't scum here.

 

Reg, how's that post coming?

 

Vira RE; #3742;

1. I'm not sure why you bothered with the vote count compilation, I'm trying to understand you better here but I'm struggling with the idea of "Lets go look at VCA, colour one of the remaining players in red and do..not much with it". Did you consider if the game made more sense with Cobalt as mafia looking at it? Help me understand you better, please.

2. Your point about "What has Vaimes done "Substantially" is fair, I'll admit there's less far less invidual actions and reads I can point towards of his and say "See he did that, that means he's town" but at the same time can you do much of that for Cobalt outside of his claim? I'll try and explain my town read on him as best as I can tonight, I've organised to borrow someones laptop for it.

3. Can very much understand your frustration with Vaimes not interacting with you, it's a playstyle choice that I'm not really a fan of especially since I don't think it's a certainty that it is you v him. And the angel argument wasn't something "I patted him on his head for", rather the opposite; I said it meant nothing to me and wasn't something I was considering as reasoning he's town or you're mafia due to.

Please read Vaimes's scum meta in Mountainous Mafia and Witch Hunt 6 and get back and discuss this with me because I think arguing that Cobalt is more outside his scum meta than Vaimes is really weird based on what I know about the both of them and their play this game.

---------- Post automerged at 07:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 PM ----------

Just got to work, will spend the next ~2 hours slowly responding to posts that happened last night.

---------- Post automerged at 07:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 PM ----------

@Vamies - If you're around can you try and walk me through what the Gravedigger claim from you D1 was all about.

---------- Post automerged at 07:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------

Thanks for the WH links to your prior games though, will peruse them later.

---------- Post automerged at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 PM ----------

Sigh, Vaimes man comments like this aren't helping.

---------- Post automerged at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------

See, I can follow the logic of "As mafia he has more motivation towards pushing Vira which he's not fully doing" but I'm not reading it to be worth as much as either of you are. He's still brought up the option of lynching Vira 2-3 times today so it's not like he's locked himself in on Vaimes and as mafia he has to be worried that his strong push on Vaimes yesterday -> Changing to Vira would look equally as bad as what Vaimes's did.

---------- Post automerged at 07:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

Man this is one ugly postmergre, someone break it!

 

I'm working on a reply right now, but here's a preview:

 

Endgame makes me bitchy.

I claimed GD like everyone claims Priest. As a joke. Didn't rescind on the slim chance mafia would shoot me for it, but would have on D2 if people asked me for a flip.

---------- Post automerged at 21:05 ---------- Previous post was at 21:05 ----------

Cobalt, you are annoying me so much. It's probably better if I post less.

 

Please don't. If you're town here fight through it since you also need to help convince whoever is town inside the other two to move otherwise there's risk that you just get deadline lynched here, us no lynching is almost worse than you being mslynched.

---------- Post automerged at 08:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 PM ----------

Look forward to it!

 

Preview? I meant feature presentation.

Here’s Cobalt:

Spoiler

Day One.
Miner [4]: Fontisian, Vaimes, Regfan, Cobalt
Fable [3]: Jarizok, Waco, Rubicon
Regfan [3]: Jan, Atum, Vira
Jarizok [2]: Owner, KaiDASH
Fluffiness [1]: Delphine
Fontisian [1]: Miner
Jan [1]: Fluffiness
Owner [1]: Newcomb
Rubicon [1]: Fable
Abstaining [1]: Koalas

Day One, Pre-Delphine Claim.
Miner [6]: Fontisian, Regfan, Cobalt, Rubicon, Vira, Vaimes,
Rubicon [3]: Fable, Delphine, His Fluffiness
Fable [2]: Jarizok, Waco,
Owner [1]: Newcomb,
Jarizok [2]: Owner, KaiDASH
Regfan [2]: Jan, Atum
Fontisian [1]: Miner
Abstaining [1]: Koalas


Day Two.
Kalas (11) - Vira, Miner, Fontisian, Vaimes, Newcomb, Rubicon, Jarizok, Waco, Regfan, Cobalt, Fluff.
Waco (2) - Kalas, KaiDASH.
Fonti (1) - Fable.
Not Voting (2) - Atum, Delphine.

Day Two, Post-Kalas.
Rubicon [4] - Vaimes, Font, Fable, Vira.
Atum [2] - Reg, Cobalt.
Reg [2] - Atum.
Font [1] - Rubicon.
Not Voting [6] - Delphine, Fluff, Jari, Miner, Newcomb, Waco.

Rubicon [5] - Vaimes, Font, Fable, Vira, Miner.
Atum [3] - Reg, Cobalt, Jari.
Reg [2] - Atum.
Font [1] - Rubicon.
Not Voting [4] - Delphine, Fluff, Newcomb, Waco.

Rubicon [5] - Vaimes, Font, Fable, Vira, Miner.
Atum [4] - Reg, Cobalt, Jari, Newcomb.
Reg [2] - Atum.
Jari [1] - Rubicon.
Not Voting [4] - Delphine, Fluff, Waco.

Atum [6] - Reg, Cobalt, Jari, Newcomb, Fable, Kai.
Jari [3] - Rubicon, Atum, Font.
Rubicon [3] - Vaimes, Vira, Miner.
Not Voting [3] - Delphine, Fluff, Waco.

Atum [7] - Reg, Cobalt, Jari, Newcomb, Kai, Font, Fluff.
Rubicon [4] - Vaimes, Vira, Miner, Fable.
Jari [2] - Rubicon, Atum.
Not Voting [2] - Delphine, Waco.

Atum [8] - Reg, Cobalt, Jari, Newcomb, Kai, Font, Fluff, Waco.
Rubicon [4] - Vaimes, Vira, Miner, Fable.
Jari [2] - Rubicon, Atum.
Not Voting [3] - Delphine.


Day Three.
Rubicon [6] - Vira, Vaimes, Fluff, Miner, Fable, Cobalt.
Waco [3] - Newcomb, Kai, Delphine.
Delphine [1] - Reg.
Not Voting [4] - Font, Jari, Rubicon, Waco.

Waco [6] - Newcomb, Kai, Rubicon, Font, Reg, Delphine.
Rubicon [5] - Miner, Vira, Fable, Fluff, Cobalt.
Not Voting [3] - Jari, Vaimes, Waco.

Rubicon [8] - Miner, Vira, Fable, Fluff, Cobalt, Font, Waco, Vaimes.
Waco [5] - Newcomb, Kai, Rubicon, Reg, Delphine.
Not Voting [1] - Jari.

Rubicon [8] - Miner, Vira, Fable, Fluff, Cobalt, Font, Vaimes, Newcomb.
Waco [4] - Kai, Rubicon, Reg, Delphine.
Not Voting [2] - Jari.

Rubicon [10] - Miner, Vira, Fable, Fluff, Cobalt, Font, Waco, Vaimes, Newcomb, Reg.
Waco [3] - Kai, Rubicon, Delphine.
Not Voting [1] - Jari.


Day Four.
Jari [3] - Vira, Fable, Miner.
Vira [2] - Kai, Vaimes.
Delphine [1] - Reg.
Not Voting [5]: Cobalt, Delphine, Font, Jari, Newcomb.

Delphine [5] - Regfan, KaiDASH, Jarizok, Cobalt, Newcomb.
Jari [4] - Vira, Fable, Miner, Delphine.
Vira [1] - Vaimes.
Abstanining [1] - Fontisian.

It could be better. He was on the tail end of Kalas’s wagon, but I think that’s when he was just catching up. Then he was on Atum, and on D3 he was in the middle of Rubicon’s wagon. On D4, he voted Delphine, but everyone eventually voted Delphine and I think I remember he was also doubtful of the wagon.

I don’t think it says much about him or anyone. We’ve hit scum early and strongly on nearly every Day, and everyone mislynched Delphine and Miner. When I posted it I thought I could find something, but this isn’t the type of game where it’s useful.

His claim is one of the hardest things to get over, though. As Cobalt said earlier, scum wouldn’t know who has which role, and to randomly pick a name and hope to god they fulfill the Watchman criteria is just… And in this scenario Cobalt can’t be the Watchman.

Apprentice / Gravedigger / Nurse / Fanatic / Spiritualist OR Judge.

Who would choose Watchman over any of these roles?

I can kind of see a scenario where scum use Watchman to confirm town someone on D2 and Cobalt’s chosen because he’s not in the lynch pool. Then everything goes sideways when Fluff and Fable come out, and the scum team don’t have time to kill you, but…

It’s super risky and barely makes sense. I can’t see Rubicon approving of this plan.

I’m still reading Mountainous. I’ll get back to you.

 

Fair, this is a conclusion I can agree with.

---------- Post automerged at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 PM ----------

So if the scum team has; Apprentice / Gravedigger / Nurse / Fanatic / Watcherman / Judge then they'd pick Watcherman over one of Apprentice/Judge since there's no gain in them having all three of Judge/Apprentice/Gravedigger, so it's plausible he can genuinely be the watcherman as mafia. As for the "If he's not watcherman it's risky in what he claims it on" isn't as strong as we thought since what "Active" roles are there that aren't in the scum team? Priest? PT if they've used their exact shot? That about it? So it's not such a "Risky" play in regards to being caught via the claim.

---------- Post automerged at 08:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 PM ----------

I mean, I think we're at the stage of the game and with players that were universally town read throughout the game that at least considering that Cobalt made that play as mafia should be a thing. We can talk more when you're done reading through Vaimes's meta.

Vaimes - I need you now more than ever.

 

Priest, Inquisitor, and maybe Hunter. That's 3/13? I mean, I guess it's not that risky, but it's still a 1/4 shot of picking someone bad.

 

Wasn't a missed night kill at the time so Hunter wasn't relevant and if mafia had worked out that Fluff was the priest (Which they should have) it'd have been 1/12? Either way not "that" risky.

---------- Post automerged at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 PM ----------
Vira RE; #3750; Admittedly everything I brought up in that earlier post was from the early game and that's becasue well....it's my read based on being up to Post ~1400 inside the game which was still D1, I'll discuss posts later in the game when I get home. Rubicon has a pretty good track record at reading Vaimes correctly; see Mountainous for that for instance, the early interaction between the two of them and Jarizok following it up hard town reading Vaimes feels like the scum team spewing him and attempting to pocket him there.

Like, I can very much see a scum team that doesn't include any of Fontisian/Newcomb etc that are players that are notoriously good for reading Vaimes thinking Vaimes would be cleared as town and thus jumping on that read early on. I feel it less likely they'd attempt to hard clear him as partners knowing that people read him well and he'd likely be caught looking bad on them.

I find Vaimes's play less "Bussing" in that he's wasn't explicitly pushing "Lets lynch X/Y/Z mafia right now!" early on, he was more pulling players away from the lynch pool that were all town for reasons he most certainly didn't need to as scum, he gets less credit from doing that as mafia and it stills hurts him the same, it lacks real scum motivation. Not a whole lot more I think we can discuss till you've finished his meta reading and I'm at home.