Yeah I'm going to sleep. Reads, I guess?

{dC}
{Zenzao, Cobalt}
{pie, Acio, Jan}
{Fable, Vaimes, Quiddity}
{a bunch of other people}
{fontisian}
{Plotless}

...This looks a little top-heavy. Oh well, deal with that tomorrow.


I was going to wait for Plotless's response, but eh.

Vote: Plotless

 

Really liked Cobalts catchup. Impossible to move further up, unfortunately.

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Don't get the blab read, though. I want to reread him and Jarizok.

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I placed you in null. What.

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Acionyx I actually think I missed that Plotless post entirely. Possibly in the catchup?

Let me find it.

 

Alternatively: It made no sense to put most of the players you had in null, in null.

 

To you, sure.

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Stanari I'm sure this has been walked through a dozen times, but could you explain your fonti read?

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Actually, not "sure". Give me a player in null who I ought to have a stance on.

Remembering of course that null=/=no opinion.

 

I've got Kai as a weak scum read, I can maybe see someone having him as a pure null read here but lumping him among the same group as people like DC/Blab/Acio/Myself doesn't make an inkling of sense to me at all, there's more then enough content and information to have a read one way or another on those players and given I'm pretty sure everyone there is town and there's strong reasoning to have those reads your placement is very ??????????

 

Oh, I had seen this, albeit not responded.

I don't like it because it seems to posit that length is a substitute for solving. But that bit particularly is so on the nose that I can see bad!town going for it. ("I want to like" is also shit, but less something that ought to be coached away.)

All in all, it only reinforces my earlier opinion, in both respects.

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So you didn't see that layer as null? Who did you think was?

This isn't pure null as in inactive. You, for instance, have been solvey but the angle of it I don't particularly trust, particularly with my meta of you. In summation, I'm not prepared to make a call one way or the other.

Acio and blab I literally don't have an opinion on. Especially blab. I saw everyone clear him early, but I didn't get it in the slightest.


I mean...I don't agree with your reads in general. lol.

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Well, I now have Kai in lean sum. So that's one in that direction.

 

regfan send help

 

@Q - No, I did see that layer as null which is the problem I'm having, you shouldn't have that many of the more active players in the null area that you do. If you don't share the town read that everyone does on so many players like that surely you'd be asking people to explain those reads so you can understand them, or explaining what about the reasoning shared you don't agree with but there's not much of that you have done.

Like I'm looking at your posts and thinking "where's the town motivation" and I'm...not finding it. And then I'm remembering your meta and thinking "is he just being this bad as town since I know he fake those reads as mafia, or is he as mafia attempting to emulate his bad town play" and ending with just, lost and annoyed at trying to read you and hoping that you somehow resolve yourself later.

But if you want to talk about one read in more detail I'd love to hear your read on myself elaborated on re; the "You, for instance, have been solvey but the angle of it I don't particularly trust, particularly with my meta of you" - what meta are you referring to and how has it impacted your read, unless I'm mistaken you've not seen my scum play so this is pretty confusing a statement for you to make.

 

We can only know what you share with us.

Like you were obviously going for clearly defined groups of 'very scum/a little scum/null/a little town/very town' but it's hard to swallow that you had no particular lean either way on all of the people you have in null, even if you do have an 'opinion' on them.

 

"The town read that everyone else does" - on whom? Blab, sure, but who else?

I am not seeing a universality here that I would feel the need to enter. I've seen the reasoning on blab - or I've seen some instances of it - and I didn't find them convincing, but...that's not a problem? This is early d1, there's time and tribulations to go.

I think we just generally approach this differently. I don't accumulate reads as fast or as strongly as DLP in general, a fact I've brought attention to in the past.


You've seen me as town before, no? Mountainous? So you have that layer.


My meta of you is of that play in general. It's analogous to Zenzaos inasmuch as I do not recall a scumgame play, but I've seen that baseline that I'm comparing you to. E.g. Typhon I hadn't seen the same and so his blaze of activity was blatantly town

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What.

/I'm watching it buuuuuurn

 

is q actually town here or.. ??

 

@Q - Outside of maybe 2-3 people (If that) being sceptical of DC he's effectively a universal town read, same could be said for Acio. There's been a multitude of reasoning brought forward for both being town, for DC there's a) Fontisian's point that he'd be aware the game started and not be refreshing the sign ups if he was in a Scum QT and it's not something he'd fake not realising as well as b) The progression behind his reads and willingness to listen to others re; "holding off on certain players" both coming across as very town, these type of reasoning you've...not commented on...not asked more about and stuck the person in null. It..doesn't feel like you attempting to gamesolve. I also find your meta answer re; "Holding me to a baseline" explanation sort of hard to buy.

The million dollar question.

Anyway heading out after work and likely won't get another post in til late tonight.

 

I DEFINITELY would protest that of Acio. Or at least add myself to the skeptics.

The dC meta thing I hadn't realised yet, and before that I had qualms with them although he was progressing in that direction.

I find the "stuck them in null" a tad sanctimonious. There are 18 players in this game, some of whom I've never played with before. I comment on the things that stick out to me, and not all players have had that.


Really not appreciating the herding vibe I'm getting from you rn.

 

I desire more blab stance from you can you reread him?

 

Fable; I mostly have a town read on Miner based on his #364. Particularly, I thought the point about Zenzao pretty strongly showed critical thought in a way I think looked town and I'm kinda interested in seeing how it ends up myself, and I liked the reasoning he took towards me too (even if I'm probably a bit biased for him town reading me). I disliked Acio early game bc his focus on Vaimes seemed very one-sided and like scum looking for an easy point to nitpick on to inject themselves into the conversation. I want to reread him because I haven't minded his later posts as much at all.
Acionyx; OTOH Vaimes or Reg. Vaimes I'm the most sure is town and I trust him to keep a cool head, Reg I just have a ~feeling~ is town but is really accurate with reads (most of the time).

Vote: The Waco Kid

Hey, Regfan;. Wanna strike sweet, sweet blood here with me?

 

What's your opinion on my Quiddity case especially given that Waco seems to disagree with it?

 

I definitely see a similar sort of thing with how he approached me; I was a bit bothered when he said in #633 that he found my defense "suspicious", for pretty much the reason you said. He just left it at that (some unexplained cosmic reason) instead of attempting to explain or sort through it at all, which made it come off like it was just shade throwing.

I could buy that his play is just scum coasting. I need to mull it over a bit.

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*If* he flips scum at some point, Waco goes next for sure. I don't think the converse is necessarily true, but I generally just find Waco's posts pretty openly disingenuous, and the Q read for "keeping an open mind" is the first place I'd look were Q to flip scum. (I intend to explain this, I just won't likely have a chance to sit down and take care of all the stuff I need to do in this game until tomorrow morning/afternoon or so. It's 1 AM and I feel myself about to pass out sometime in the near future)

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This is gonna be a wall, I've tried to cut it back a bit but I can't help it. If there is a standard for formatting/spoilering very large walls on this site, please let me know.

So first, some stuff about DC. The first thing I want to say is that I think the point about him not noticing the game start being a townslip actually has some merit; I don't think it's unfakeable, but the way it happened here looked a lot more fluid and not done in a way I'd really expect scum to plan (as opposed to a typical sort of "oh this started, ops lol"). So that's a point in his favor.

Reading his catchup wall in #351 - the first thing I want to say is that I generally take issue with the format of the wall. Catchup walls like this are generally just inconvenient because they always lead to you thinking you've seen something only to reverse it a few posts later when it's explained, so there's not really much of a point in doing it unless you're simply unaware of this - I see this stream-of-consciousness sort of thing a lot more from scum who want to give the air that "oh my god, look how natural and free-flowing my approach to the game is". Anyway, as for the post itself, I'll start by seguing at about the #130 mark or so. There's two things with this post up to here. First off, I'm noticing a *lot* of focus and commenting on scum pairs, and interjecting with "this might be a thing", "only one is scum", etc. I take issue with this because it doesn't really do anything; it's a fairly typical way for scum to pad out the length of their post and looks like they're coming up with some new point that no one bothered to think about before, without *really* saying anything. The other thing is that a lot of the reads he's given have been pretty shallow and not concrete; particularly the read on Jari reads more like he's just attempting to throw shade on his posts (nothing to it besides just "ew" several times), and the read on Cobalt feels very easy. To be fair, the read on Q is a lot more concrete (and I can see where he's coming from with it upon review), and Cobalt apparently has some pretty obvious meta stuff in his favor, so this probably isn't that strong of a point.

Segue again at #175 (my first post in the thread). Up to here, it's more of the same - more really vague scum reads and continuing to focus a lot more on worlds linking people via interactions as opposed to individual, reads, i.e. the "still think Vaimes is scum but not as likely before" still with no concrete, isolatable reason attached to it. The explanation about #165, in particular, is an instance of him focusing way too much on a bunch of interaction possibilities that are almost entirely irrelevant this early in the game. There is not any reason I can think of behind doing this to this extent besides just trying to pad the post out with original-sounding content.

I guess the stuff about town reads may just be playstyle? He seems to be doing it with Jan too, but ehhh.

At #184 and his read on me literally amounts to "she's attacking a bunch of people I think are probably town, must be throwing shade, such scum", with nothing specific explaining *where* I'm actually making up reasoning to push these reads. In fact he does this literally immediately AFTER he just says he sees where I'm coming from with the reasoning behind these reads, without caring to explain the "context" making him question it at all. This is typical scum behavior: keep your options open by throwing shade, hedging on reads to look unsure but never really providing a concrete reason and making it harder to make a push there in the future.

At #215, I think the read on Q is still by far his best and most genuine read - I'm not 100% yet on if it's correct or not but really it is the only read I can look at and think that he genuinely believes in it (and not going to lie if I'm not just horribly wrong about the stuff about Q/Waco, I may look here for potential distancing, but I'm getting way too far ahead of myself for D1).

#232 stands out again because even though he's acknowledging Jari (one of his pet scum reads) is doing something he's done as town before, he still acts skeptical about it. Again, he is displaying the same typical scum behavior when you want to keep your options open.

Fast forward to the end and it's really just more of the same, if people have been following me at all up to here it should be obvious enough to see where I'm coming from with the rest of the catchup, so I'm not going to get into any more details about the post here. And yes, that was my analysis of one post. We're in for a long ride.

FF again to #402. This is the first time he's attempted to seriously explain his issue with me beyond "she's pushing people I think are town", and again, it's very vague - he just says that my push on Acionyx is unjustified, and doesn't explain it at all. Moreover, if you read _from_ #402, he literally never brings it up again after that. I don't really think the thought process he's displaying here is genuine, as he's done nothing to really *sort* through it with me directly (even though he easily could have asked me, I was in the thread several times by then), just sit and poke from the sidelines.

FF to #455. This is, in the fact, the first time he's provided a solid scum read that has actually backed up with evidence. I mostly just bring this up to highlight that he hasn't had this at all until this post. Apart from that, it's just been general questioning, with no real direction anywhere. This is again the typical sort of approach scum take, blah blah I've been over this enough already so I'm not going to say it again. Also noted is that Fable was iirc one of the easier scum reads at the time (I think a lot of people myself included scum read him for various reasons at this point in the game).

#532 looks kind of town, I guess? The part about "want to aggressively push early because I don't want it forgotten" rings true and is kinda similar to what I tend to do when I have an early read I want to draw discussion to (see: Cobalt).

#549... actually has me questioning a lot of what I've pointed out up to here. The read on Waco reads very true to me and it's a pretty succinct explanation of what is wrong with Waco's play here.

FF again to #615 I mostly just take issue with because DC hasn't mentioned Jari at all since his initial catchup wall in #351. This may not be much of a point because it simply looks like a wagon consolidation vote, and he's expressed reason to feel better about Q (and to some extent me with regard to Waco even though never explicitly said it).

Overall I'm basically of two worlds with regard to DC. I don't really like his early posts since it fits the profile of scum unsure how to enter the game, and thus just commenting on a bunch of irrelevant stuff because it sounds good while avoiding explaining the meat behind their reads. I think I generally like his posts a lot more now that more stuff his happened, and I feel that he's got a bit of a better foothold in the game and I can see the aim behind what he's doing a bit better. I also don't know if I'm being particularly fair with the early part of his catchup, since along with the Waco read later in the game he has displayed some more well-founded reads, i.e. the Q one. Along with the townslip stuff I think there's a fairly good chance I'm just reading into his style and he's the sort who picks up once he gets "into" the game and has a general view of things (like me).

End conclusion is that I'm actually coming around to town, but there is a part of me who suspects he may just be a competent scum player and doesn't want to write him off fully, but regardless I guess I'm pretty OK not worrying about him for this game day.

Waco comes next but I don't know if I'll get around to it tonight.
dichotomousCreator; I get your reasoning about wanting to aggressively push Q early so it isn't forgotten, but I don't get why you think Q's play has improved and I don't think you explained it anywhere? I actually had the opposite impression. If I missed something, link would be appreciated, I was zoning out a bit near the end.

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Also if someone could poke me about what DC's general skill level as scum is, I'd feel a lot better *if* he isn't next-level enough to fake most of the stuff I was skeptical over. TIA.

 

Unvote, Vote: Pieyan

 

Umm, seriously?

We need to talk.

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If that's serious, I'm honestly just more disappointed than anything.

Especially because I know I won't be capable of successfully talking it out with you (and the fact there's no Nacho in this game to understand my play).

 

Haha, no. Not seriously. I think you finally left your scum range this game but couldn't pass up that perfect opportunity to troll you (mixed with a small reaction-test). I'm mid way through reading your huge DC post, I'll respond in a few hours probably. Planning on posting some detailed reasoning behind all my town reads since I feel pretty good about ~9 people being town here so I'm largely playing a PoE game and want to make sure all my town reads are correct before going down that avenue.

Unvote, Vote: Plotiness