Yeah, we established that claiming there are 5 scum when there are 4 scum is pretty dumb. I don't think you set him up to claim town!mechanics!oracle, in fact, that feels very Cobalty.

 

This belief contradicts his "thoughts" of me as a player pretty strongly, not to mention it's been mentioned that I spend literally hours crafting fake claims for partners; take a look at Jurassic Park Mafia QT where there's ~100-150 posts about a fake claim we didn't end doing because we spent hours researching and didn't think it could be pulled off properly, or Space Mafia where I crafted an odd night? vig claim for my partner to save him from being lynched. Like his flip here feels more like a "I see an opportunity to jump on a Reg ML by stating there's 4 scum and will ignore what points against that since it doesn't work for my case". It's very opportunistic and doesn't feel like proper gamesolving at all.

Anyway getting dinner then I'll make a big post for Pie.

pienyan, you going to be around tonight?

 

Hmmm.

I guess my issue with that is that in that case, as soon as 5scum world is revealed when you flip town we just run over blab. It's a 1 for 1, and I don't think that's what scum wants at the moment. Like, why would blab not just go along with the Reg cases being put forward already rather than pick one that gets him killed tomorrow?

 

Scum would happily trade a "1 for 1" where they're not the first person lynched because it doesn't always work out in the way that they get instantly lynched afterwards and it's much more preferable than them or their partner getting lynched. Also getting me mslynched here brings up LYLO tomorrow where they only need someone to have a wrong read to win?

 

Yeah, but I don't think they'd want a 1 for 1 on somebody who's already in a rough spot. That's more like "throwing away a scum member for someone who was likely to die anyway"

 

lynching Reg first is maybe kinda a bad move, because he is unlikely to be in any team of 2.
How about this:
We lynch miner=>scum=>we reconsider
We lynch miner=>town=>we lynch blab=>town=>we lynch Regfan

(I'm kinda assuming I come out of my reread feeling unchanged about Stanari(good) and miner(meh))
I have taken a couple of positions that look very bad on me, so I really don't want to get into a f3 with Regfan, plus, if we can agree on an universal townblock of (Fable, Vaimes, pienyan, dC, Stanari) than I don't even have to feel bad about being mislynched.

 

If you wanted an explanation behind my Waco read progression here's my entire one below;

I recommend reading Post #238 -> Post #434 -> Post #440 -> Post #603 -> Post #623 with the context in mind that I ordered him to be vig shot in WH8 where he was town so was more inclined to think his efforts at solving Q's alignment early on and his read on Plotless even just a "Are you scum Plotless" comment was at the same time I started having that thought was a point towards him being town; it was weak reasoning but you know more than anyone that I state any read/thoughts I get in the early game and then am happy to reassess based on new information which is pretty evident in those posts alone? Especially more prominent in my posts and push on him D2. Inside Post #674 you can start to see that I'm considering lynching there but didn't really want to do it until I was more confident since his dying comments in WH8 was in relation to it being one of the first times I've misread him recently so wanted to at least be sure before D1 lynching him; think you can at least find this pretty understandable/relatable.

Spent a lot of time N1 rereading and attempting to weed out my incorrect reads and thought both interactions between yourself and Waco made sense as partners, also scum read you both individually, I brought up the possibility of it phrased as a question inside Post #1057 because I wanted some untainted opinions on the possibility; for the record, this isn't something I'd think or do as mafia, I'd just post it and attempt to frame others into thinking it's a thing, you can see more of that in . I blow the load and post the reasoning behind considering both of you inside Post #1090 and state that I can see you both as scum independently while voting you in Post #1094 while votes themselves were meaningless. There's the ~10-15 or so posts where I ask for a shot inside Waco/Q stating Wacos my preference, I don't think I need to go and link all of those because you'd have read them by now but I did go into the Waco read in detail in Post #1215. So, yes I did town read Waco initially and have explained why already above; the town read died pretty quickly and reassessed there very early, hesitation re; lynching him D1 was due to the fact that I'd sentenced him to death last game where he was town and I wasn't feeling very confident inside my scum read on D1 -- was mostly focusing on attempting to find a town core there. I didn't really "hedge" or "stall" on a read on Waco at all D1, nor did I "have no original reasoning" behind the read, I actually pushed that shot pretty strongly because I'd noticed a few disconnects inside his reads and serious issues when rereading. If there's anything more about this read or progression you need me to expand on I will, otherwise I'll move on to your other concerns.

 

I'm not really going to be around the rest of tonight. Also Reg, if you're expecting me to engage in these back-and-forths with you at this point in the game, you're wrong. I will read whatever posts you direct to me, and I'll factor them in *if* you bring something to my attention that I missed, but I don't want to give you the opportunity to turn things into semantics arguments and obfuscate the thread.

 

That's fine. I don't expect you to respond in walls. I do expect you to read and consider everything I'm saying though because I can explain my thoughts / progressions very easily here and you know that's something that I struggle with as mafia. If you have any questions for me while i'm doing it fire away.

And none of this is really 'semantics'?

---------- Post automerged at 04:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 AM ----------

I'll eat the Cobalt misread early on, that's entirely on me and something that completely happened; it's not something I'd do as mafia though. I don't react towards Vaimes's scum read on Cobalt/Myself in this manner at all as mafia; I also don't go out of my way to defend Cobalt strongly D1 knowing it'd just be read a mirror of Jurassic Park and thinking he's someone that'd be easily caught by people like Fontisian etc. He's not someone I'd hitch my ride to as mafia, did so to Nacho inside Jurassic and you how frustrated I was about that and Nachos a significantly better scum player than Cobalt is. On the flip side if you take a look at his read on me throughout the he's trying to buddy and tie himself to me.

I also did a lot of attempts at trying to read Cobalt in different manners, for instance there was plenty of W/W, not W/W's that I did inside the early game attempting to start some early team building and narrowing down some of the active players better; you'll see in posts like Post #1044 that I'm trying to just outright increase the odds of hitting mafia D1, my thought process was if I can remove a pool of players that only removes at maximum 1 scum, potentially 0 then it leaves a higher chance of lynching mafia and given I didn't have super great feelings about scum reads fullstop D1 until Plotless late in the day this was my attempt at game solving. You can argue that pushing Cobalt/Jarizok as unaligned that hard and then pushing Jarizok as mafia and thus not having a reason to push Cobalt makes sense as mafia and I can't really argue with you on that because it would? But I think there should be enough evidence that I genuinely scum read Jarizok and really did think Zenzao and Jarizok were aligned.

I can pretty confidently say this is something that I never post as mafia.

---------- Post automerged at 04:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 AM ----------

I don't go into elaborated town reads on the sheer number of players I do in Post #669 and Post #672 as mafia with the placements that I drop before deadline in Post #955 and for the record I thought the day end was at 11AM my time and was posting that ~9 minutes before the deadline as a "If Plotless is scum I might die and I don't really want people to take the Vaimes/Cobalt reads to be as strong as I mentioned in the thread earlier since I'm not feeling them there and I don't really want to get made fun if I'm misreading him so I can save face a little to Newcomb if I drop him a bit" thing and then had that awkward feeling when I realised there was another hour to go and I had to actually explain them. But no, I don't place Zenzao that high as a partner and drop the read entirely as mafia, that change is pretty clearly due to me spending a lot of the night phase actually rereading the game and realising I'm wrong in several places.

---------- Post automerged at 05:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 AM ----------

Just dropping Post #1030 for you guys to read when you want too, it helps show my thoughts a bit. If you take a look at the spoilered section in Post #1225 you can see how natural my progression and way of looking at the game is and proof behind my "Dropped a shitload of town reads and reassessed" while looking at how I was using "Not W/W" reads.

I'll again repoint towards my reaction towards Vaimes trying to get Jarizok to claim to shoot him in Post #1274 and Post #1276. I have a pretty strong "distancing/buss a partner but if town really want to eat themselves and mslynch / misvig; let them" policy as scum, Vaimes should be aware of this re; how I treated X=Y D1 in Jurassic and Pie should be aware of it based on every scum game of mine she's seen as well as conversations outside of the game. I think mafia that town-side too hard are silly and think you can get as much town-credit without hurting the scum faction at every turn.

---------- Post automerged at 05:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 AM ----------
pienyan, you've also misremembered my treatment of Zenzo/Cobalt completely, I never pushed "They're certainly not partners" at all and openely stated that Cobalt was a blind spot of mine; he wasn't in my lock town group after Jarizok flipped town and actually stated my read there was very weak and asked Blab to explain his read more in Post #2042 and Post #2045. You can see that Cobalts still in my suspect/reassesment pool in Post #2100 and that I merely wasn't considering him where I was lynching on D4 itself (I was and am pretty confident Miner is scum) in Post #2121. There was actually several people pushing Cobalt/Zen not being a thing heavily, I was not one of them.

---------- Post automerged at 05:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 AM ----------

I was actually pretty comfortable leaving you to the side for most of the game despite scum reading you because a) If you're town then getting into a Wall v wall and pushing you is obviously anti-town and gives scum a very easy position to be in and b) If you're scum I didn't think I could explain the read without referring to skype logs and meta games which I think would have ruined the game completely and was hoping it'd just be resolved via me dying at some point and you getting lynched. Then I read your Post #1756 and thought "Fuck me, what if we're in a world where it's somehow Jari!Town and Pie!Scum and she's TMI'ing here and setting up a mslynch push on me tomorrow based on it" which caused my vote change in Post #1788. For the record Post #1851 and Post #1855 where my first two phone posts of the game (Another rule I broke of mine...) the first was when I took a bathroom break and was thinking "The fuck, is Pie thinking because I told him that I didn't mind Vira attempting to emotionally fuck with me after last game she's doing this" and the second was a vote switch back to Jari because I realised I was being silly and that Jari was the better lynch; I was kind of hoping to rub a Jari!Scum flip in your face and see how you react to it plus I thought that'd make getting Scum!You lynched significantly easier and less painful. Obviously didn't pan out but if you go and look at my posts around the time it should be clear that I'm not lying here and that was my actual intention.

---------- Post automerged at 05:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 AM ----------

Also sorry about the occasional incorrect pronoun usages, I'm pretty awful with that.

---------- Post automerged at 05:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 AM ----------

I think that's a response to most of your concerns?

Let me know if I'm missing anything, otherwise going to go do the dishes and then probably respond to Vaimes's point about Miner and try and squeeze in a reread of Blab and DC. Think making it ridiculously obvious that I'm town here is pretty important though because it seems no ones reading and listening to my posts while they think there's potential I'm scum and I'm not letting myself get mslynched here.

---------- Post automerged at 05:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 AM ----------

Also someone posting so I can stop merging would be niceish.

---------- Post automerged at 05:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:25 AM ----------

I don't think I addressed this one properly actually so I'll go into it a bit more. I completely admit that I didn't have a strong read of the situation and who was actually scum between Cobalt and yourself yesterday, I think I even commented that I felt more comfortable with RNG deciding then myself. I've not felt great about my reads accuracy after WH and after missing on Jarizok here (I don't think my reads here have been atrocious but not what I'd like them to be) and I've got a few things going on that I don't really want to go into that have sort of impacted my ability to focus properly and left me pretty scatterbrained? about things when I don't want to be.

One of my largest hangups that made my decision difficult yesterday was setup speculation which you know more than anyone I do given I've reviewed a lot of games and think I've got a decent feel for balance. I didn't think Cobalts initial claim is something that ever happened from a scum team of 4, and still don't think that's the case. That meant that his secondary claim of tracker is dealing with a world of 5 if he's mafia and I was having difficulty seeing us having enough power unless he was legitimate. This is obviously somewhat solved by Kai not actually being a 1-shot doc but by being a combination of full doctor and DOB but wasn't something I knew when attempting to evaluate the situation so put yourself in my shoes when attempting to work that out and maybe you'll see where and why I was at a little clearer.

---------- Post automerged at 05:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 AM ----------

I think you'll also realise that the timing of my vote on Cobalt was at a pretty pivotal time, there were several players that were willing to swing either direction (Kai/Vaimes/DC/Blab) so no, it wasn't a "Cobalt was dead for sure yesterday" typet hing at all. I also had a strong scum read on Miner long before any claim had occurred, I'd really like you actually read the reasoning I've put forward for him being mafia and talk with me about that if you've got time.

---------- Post automerged at 05:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 AM ----------

Okay, that's everything of mine. I know it'll be a good ~10 minutes reading to get through it all Vaimes and Pie but I really would appreciate you at least taking the time to read and think about it given we've hit an important part of the game and locking down a strong town read on me is going to go a long way towards winning this. It'll also mean you start viewing the game from where I am and share your thoughts on how Miner/DC/Blab have been dealing with their read on me.

 

Have a wallbreaker.
I'm going to need a real computer screen to actually read your post.

 

I think you're kinda missing the point. I mean if nothing else your main content being self-defense is ALSO traditionally considered scummy, so this all largely just comes off as trying to avoid the lynch and not trying to find scum (note that if you are lynched then time spent defending yourself is wasted, while time spent finding scum becomes MORE valuable if anything). I know you're saying you'll do rereads, but why aren't you just going and doing those instead of posting endlessly about how town you are? Even if you get lynched afterward, that just means people will pay more attention to what you said.

Like. Everything you've said or COULD say in this vein can be dismissed with "okay, so you had a coherent town train of thought running through your scumplay, big deal". You might say this makes it impossible to prove that you're town and, uh, yeah? That's kind of the point of the game. If town players could prove themselves town they'd all just DO it and then we'd lynch the scum and it'd be boring.

I dunno what I'm trying to say here. Just that towny behaviour tends to only be good for early-to-midgame and late game you gotta hope your towny behaviour was directed at Actual Scum(TM) because otherwise it's actually indistinguishable from scum who are playing well. At least that's been my experience in scumgames where I've done well. Probably. I've been playing mafia for at least a year but I'm still pretty new in a lot of ways (I'll be honest, I've never really played against anything like Cobalt's hardbus on Zen before)

I mean, I do sympathize to a degree. It's not like I've had a good track record this game either, and I could easily see it being me in that position instead of you. The thing is though that I feel like the reaction of "SEE HOW TOWN I AM!!!" is not how town generally reacts to it. I came into today half expecting TO be in your position, and I was less thinking about how to avoid the lynch and more thinking about how to get the most value out of my last day.

PREVIEW EDIT: Also the Cobalt timing thing was at a pivotal point, yes. My reading of the situation is that you prognosticated that Cobalt would eventually be the one dying at the end of the day, and/or realized that pie flipping with you on her would result in Cobalt AND you going down, and decided to hop on Cobalt as a result of this.

---------- Post automerged at 08:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ----------

(EBWOP: That's a bit ramble-y, but hopefully if you ARE town it explains some of why you're being stuck to so doggedly)

 

dichotomousCreator - I feel like you've ignored what I've actually done this day phase though? I elaborated on reads on Stanari and Pie in Post #2656 and a big case on Miner in Post #2670 only to have zero people comment on the reasoning I've provided on any of these reads outside of Vaimes who I'm planning on responding too. I've had people tell me they're not really intending to read those posts because they're suspicious of me or scum read me, the only solution to that is explain pretty explicitly why I'm not mafia here and then get back to scumhunting afterwards. I'm not going to continuously churn out reads when people aren't reading them, this should be pretty understandable.

 

(DOUBLE EBWOP: Also this logic goes out the window at LyLo, but at the same time that suggests that if you're reacting defensively your team is in dire straits and you NEED to survive in order for things to be ok. That doesn't really feel like it describes town right now)

 

Imo, this is how the game should be played; feel free to ask Newcomb and Eido to confirm postgame, perhaps even Acio too. Town should be making their thoughts transparent and obvious making PoE'ing scum easy.

---------- Post automerged at 05:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 AM ----------

Like my reads and thoughts on the came have already been completely clear and shared on everyone in the game outside of Blab and yourself so to state that I be "Focusing on scumhunting" when we're what? 9 hours into a 72 hour day and I'm not being listened to because I'm being scum read and I'm having my posts read is pretty incorrect. I have plenty of time to do and will be doing both here.

---------- Post automerged at 06:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 AM ----------

This um, also an incorrect way to play the game. It's less about analysing the accuracy of a persons reads and more about reading their reasoning and progression behind their reads and genuineness and natural progression that exists in them. Mafia can buss, town can be wrong; end results are mostly irrelevant. It's about hunting for motivation and town can explain all their actions much easier than mafia because mafia have elements of their play that are influenced by them intentionally making scum-agendery moves and are also influenced by the fact they have inside knowledge about the game making it harder to have a natural scum read progression like a townie would.

---------- Post automerged at 06:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 AM ----------

Lets table the theory talk though, yeah?

 

The case post on Miner hardly counts, that's not FINDING scum, that's hammering in someone who's already widely scumread. I'm not super keen to give you credit for that.

The readpost at the start is admittedly the best content you've produced today, but it's kind of like a drop in the ocean here. And what comments are there even to make? Sure, pie is locktown. Sure, Stanari is probably town. Sure, discounting you the scum are probably in Miner/blab. Great talk!

Like, that's the problem. We're approaching the denoument with a lot of very solid townreads, so there's just not much to say. Like. What sort of feedback did you want? People arguing that Stanari isn't town? People arguing that Miner IS? Vaimes HAS been discussing the latter, and you kind of passed it over.

I guess that means I shouldn't hold the defensive bent against you as much, but there's just so much of it :v

PREVIEW EDIT: Okay lemme go down this piece by piece.

I'm gonna be blunt and say this only works against bad scum, or at least scum who aren't adapted to a meta where this happens. Mafia isn't a "solvable" game like Checkers, and a good scum player will be able to mimic what you're describing but with trains of thought that happen to lead where the scum wants to go.

I'm not saying what you SHOULD be doing. I'm saying what is attracting negative attention to you. You're right about the time, so there's no need to get up in arms at this point. If you're going to provide better content later then you'll do that and if it's good content that people buy into then the situation will change.

The keyword here is "harder", not "impossible". Again, if you're doing just this then you're banking on scum making mistakes in order to find them. This works fine up to a point, but once you get to the end of the game the only scum left are the best ones.

I remember specifically FTL Mafia where I spent the whole game being very careful to mix in my in-thread behaviour with a planned PR fakeclaim to produce a coherent mindset, and as a result people bought it even though it made town seem too powerful (hell, the final lynch was an actual PR who people didn't believe over me because I was "more consistent"). I'm not saying I was anywhere near uncatchable, but it was the right scumplay to combat the meta that your posts suggest is hanging around (indeed, I managed to get Acio with it, though I'm going to chalk that up to beginner's luck).

Anyway the point is that the only HARD indicator of towniness is doing actual damage to the scumteam, and everything else kind of follows a rule where because scum are TRYING to look like town, if there are what appear to be "cracks in the facade" then all the towny behaviour in the world just LOOKS like a facade.

This is how a few comparatively small incongruities can overrule days of consistent towny thought process. Like (and this is going to sound weird) how if you're looking for shapeshifters, someone who appears human 99.9% of the time but then once or twice you see a stray glimpse of a tentacle when they thought you weren't looking is probably someone you want to shoot a lot.

tl;dr scum are trying to put up a facade so town behaviour/mindset by itself has to be treated as something that could be part of one.

And yeah sure we can table theory talk now. I do think it was important to both stake out positions, but I think we can both agree to disagree at least as far as this game is concerned. Maybe we can make more sense of the situation now we know where the other person is coming from.

To that end: From my perspective, a town player in your situation would outline a path to victory based on their reads and such and aggressively push THAT, kind of like what blab has been doing. Explain your reads if questioned and give a (BRIEF) summary of them in the plan, tell people to redo their homework on factually inaccurate stuff rather than textwalling them with it, and move on.

So: Let's pretend for a sec you get mislynched today and, say, Vaimes dies overnight. What are you yelling at us to do in deadchat?

 

I think we disagree pretty strongly on a theory level, I don't think "good scum players" are that much harder to catch by reading their train of thought process and their posts alone, I just think they're harder to lynch and tailor themselves be in favourable positions. I don't think you *need* to factor in their accuracy of their reads more than their reasoning behind the reads. The problem with your "If you're going to provide better content later people will judge you by that and thus you don't need to explain how you're town here" type stance is that if people genuinely aren't reading my posts due to them scum reading me then they're not going to be able to work that out. I've got what ~300 posts here too, so it's not like you don't have content that's specifically defensive about myself to read into. You've also got the interactions between flipped scum and myself the other direction.

If you're confident to the degree where Miner is "Obvious scum" where you don't think the case on him means anything then you should be pretty hard pushing him to get lynched, here, no? Like either I'm scum that's bussing him, I'm scum that's pushing on a town player, I'm town that's correct on him or I'm town that's incorrect on him? You can have thoughts on my read on him, you haven't really shared many. Do you think any of the points I've put forward are particularly stronger or weaker than the other ones. And I've not "Passed over Vaimes" I've mentioned I intend to get to discussing Miner with him shortly?

I'd tell you when I work it out? We're pretty early into the day phase and I came into it thinking we'd likely have 2 mslynches before LYLO and that I'd be able to talk with Fontisian about her Miner read a little more as well as bounce with her a few things. I've not been able to do any of that and we've been fast-forwarded to a 1 ML before LYLO situation which isn't great to 'solve right now!' type on. Right now it's mostly "Lynch Miner and then probably one of DC/Blab" but I want to actually do some hard analysis on this and actually look to see what's even likely teamwise between Miner-DC, Miner-Blab, DC-Blab and then probably even do a double check between Miner and some of my town reads to make sure I'm not missing something there. I've got other small thoughts that I'm kind of waiting on ~things~ to happen with too before bringing to light.

---------- Post automerged at 06:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 AM ----------

Speaking of Miner - Convince me that your read on me is a genuine read; what specifically about "Being wrong on Pie and knowing her well" makes you confident that I'm scum here after seeing how WH panned out. Similarly you mentioned you didn't think my play here matches my town meta; I'd like you to describe in your own words (or provide links) to explain what you think the difference between my play here and in WH8/TH7 is.

---------- Post automerged at 06:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 AM ----------

Also blab - I'll take the detailed explanation behind your town read on DC, would like you specifically to comment on and talk about his play in the last two day phases (D4 and today) when stating that read.

---------- Post automerged at 06:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 AM ----------
Fable - I'd like where you're at too in general.

---------- Post automerged at 06:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 AM ----------

I..probably shouldn't have got sucked into this conversation. I'm heading to bed shortly.

I'll probably re-read and make some notes on the way to work and try and get a proper post upon in my lunch break. Going to try and stop myself from actually doing live-posting during actual work periods though since it's just getting me aggravated.

 

I'd just like to point out that this post is something that town would never ever make because if we're in a world of five, after my lynch blab would never advocate for his own lynch since it would mean town loses.

So either this is TMIing that there's only 4 scum, or this is potentially gamethrowing.

Vaimes

I believe Drome changed my username and sig in the middle of D1. But then again I can't really say if it was even Drome because more than one site mod/admin was around for the whole memefest that happened in the TOMD thread where the whole Adult/Miner thing happened.

Regfan

In WH8 you didn't know me very well and you definitely didn't know Delphine that well either. As in you've played very little with both of us and I've definitely not "discussed" mafia with you to the same extent that it seems as though you have with pie.

But apparently here, you've both talked to pie and played with pie, and you've repeatedly said on D3 (I believe) that you were strongly scumreading pie because "you know that this is how she plays as scum."

Like I mean wtf is this post:

---------- Post automerged at 07:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 AM ----------

Also Regfan

I've got this impression from being both alignments in games where you were town (TH7) that you never ever get emotionally tilted from the game as you have here.

Like I've never seen you get angry when you're being pressured, and the fact that it's happening here is just ???.

 

I don't think Blabs TMI'ing about 4 scum, I think the odds of 4 scum are pretty non-existent but I would agree that his way of assessing the game at the moment isn't reading particuarly genuine or natural. I'm struggling to see him buying the 4 scum world he's considering. I also think his "plan" feels really odd in that he'd listed worlds of 2 that he'd lose to when making that plan.

The post you've linked was in reaction towards Pie's "Don't join games with me", context behind it because what the hell is she read through Vira's QT at the end of WH8 and I'd mentioned that I wouldn't have minded if Vira had posted some of her AtE type comments that she'd prepped in there about me because if I fall for it then that's on me and not her. I thought that post of Pie was her attempting to work at that angle and thought she'd taken it too far. Your push and reasoning here is ignoring the fact that outside of my vanity vote on D2 when I was really just pushing for a Waco shot and waiting for votes to get reset and a ~10? minute period D3 I haven't actually been pushing Pie's lynch at all. I've scum read her, been wrong on her sure, but not actually been pushing to lynch her and instead focusing and scumhunting elsewhere. But again, none of that is an answer for how you think this game differs from my meta in TH7 and WH8 so an answer would be appreciated.

---------- Post automerged at 07:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 AM ----------

Eh, I'm pretty calm most of the time. I did have a ~5 post period in WH8 that I regretted that was directed towards Atum that I apologised for post game. I can't really comment more than I've had a few things going on outside of the game that I've probably let into the thread this game which I shouldn't have but I don't think I've acted entirely unreasonable.

 

The Miner situation has changed since the beginning of the day. I'm essentially sheeping Vaimes's read now because my general read quality has been awful this game. I was talking about the start-of-game state when I was talking about this earlier. Indeed, I was planning to come into the day shoving the Miner lynch and did even firstvote it! Then this thing with a push on you seemed more pertinent, as your case is far less open and shut than scum!Miner's seemed at the time. Then Vaimes went and dug up the stuff for Miner being town, et cetera.

Also I think people aren't reading your posts because they are too long and dense, not because they are scumreading you. I was only skimming the damn things even back on D2 when I had you as high town. Being scummy probably means people will occasionally "catch" on part of the post they don't like and just skip out to rail on that, but fundamentally that won't happen if your posts are shorter or at least less dense or well-summarized.

And if it'll take you a while to get to the whatever other stuff then, honestly, fine. If people write you off as lockscum you can't convince them otherwise ANYWAY, and if they don't they should be reading your posts and if they don't do that it's on them. If you're town, I'm more concerned that the effort you were/are invested in being defensive could have been spent on doing that instead. That Blab question is a particularly good start, as it follows up two of your reads of interest simultaneously. I guess I feel like you could have been doing stuff like that this whole time :v

As for "factoring in read accuracy over read motivation", it's more that read accuracy is a more reliable, but rarer towntell. Like how you can argue that cop checking everyone (excluding Godfather/sanities) is the best way to find scum, but practicality with the mechanics gets in the way. I'm not saying read motivation is WORTHLESS, just that it's not worth as MUCH as read accuracy because it can be faked at no cost by scum (whereas scum faking accurate reads are known as "bussers" and taking on a real cost for their activities). It may be hard to do and therefore worthwhile to try and catch scum failing at it, but you can't just assume they won't succeed at it either. It's like a "necessary, but not sufficient" condition for someone to be town.

Although I agree that missed reads shouldn't automatically mean someone's scum. It's more the opposite: hits are a strong (although not ironclad) towntell.

(PREVIEW EDIT: Blab's definitely not TMI-ing here. If nothing else he proposed a lynch progression assuming 4scum that causes 4scum!blab to lose, which seems ill-advised)

 

Wait what?

What the fuck?

You're saying you didn't want to push pie outside of a 10 minute period D3 and a vanity vote on D2?

Are we reading a different game??????