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Should Draco Malfoy have gone to prison?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Skeletaure, Sep 12, 2019.

  1. Bergeton

    Bergeton Squib

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    It's been almost eight years since I studied criminal law, but with regards to Dumbledore's death, wouldn't the obvious answer be to charge Malfoy with aiding and abetting or conspiracy?

    With regards to the Imperio-defence, to me this would seem to fall under automatism. An ingenious defence, really, since it must be almost impossible to disprove beyond reasonable doubt.

    On a more general basis, should we assume that wizarding law is particularly similar to English common law? At the very least, we should expect that it has developed mostly independently since the statute of secrecy. However, since the British wizarding society appears to have been rather academically minded for a long time, I would posit that it is more likely that their courts developed along the lines of the ecclesiastical courts. So, perhaps we should be looking at Scots law instead?
     
  2. Scarat

    Scarat Fourth Year

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    I mean, the actions of the Death Eaters were against innocents. And we know that the ministry is willing to authorize the use of unforgivables in certain cases, so I could understand them being okay with Harry casting them, especially after winning against Voldemort.
     
  3. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    Yeah, nobody seems to consider Harry tossing around Unforgivables in the last book to be any sort of crime, it seems likely that the laws against them are more akin to the normal laws than some sort of special magical law. In other words, the Killing Curse is illegal because murder is illegal, the Cruciatus Curse because torture is illegal, and so on.

    It's pretty well recognized that a lot of the standard laws of civilized society don't apply during wartime. It seems likely that in the aftermath of the war, Kingsley's administration would put through whatever legislation it took to establish that Britain had no functioning legitimate government after the Death Eaters took over, and any laws broken in the course of resistance against Voldemort's regime don't count.
     
  4. Faun

    Faun Fourth Year

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    Adjudication falls to judiciary but prosecution and actual punishment are in executive's domain. From a purely legal point of view Draco is guilty, but whether he should be prosecuted or not is based on different considerations.

    In the post-war period focus is on reconciliation and rebuilding. To prosecute everyone will appear like persecution. If a strict approach is taken then Harry too has to be prosecuted which is untenable. Its easier to grant pardon to likes of Draco and punish the worst offenders from both sides.
     
  5. Longsword

    Longsword Banned

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    Do we even now this from the books ?
     
  6. Faun

    Faun Fourth Year

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    It's the next logical step. After every war focus shifts to reconciliation and rebuilding. The books are silent on what happened in the immediate aftermath. If Draco is allowed to be free then reconciliation is easier to swallow than graft.
     
  7. TheWiseTomato

    TheWiseTomato Prestigious Tomato ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Draco Malfoy Did Nothing Wrong.
     
  8. aAlouda

    aAlouda High Inquisitor

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    • Draco tortured multiple people with the cruciatus on Voldemorts orders
    • attempted to use it on Harry in the bathroom
    • used the imperius to enslave Rosmerta for a year
    • almost murdered Katie, Ron, Harry and Slughorn(the last two also almost drunk the poison),
    • he was responsible for letting Death Eaters into Hogwarts, including Greyback who procceeded to partially ate and disfigure Bill Weasley
    • was at the very least accesory to the murder of Dumbledore
    • During the battle of Hogwarts he actually tried to capture Harry
    • and he was old enough to understand the severity of what he was doing during all of that.
    At no point does he acutally try to redeem himself or at least show that his views on blood purity dont allign with Voldemort and his followers. And the nicest thing hes ever done in the books, is not identifying Harry in his manor. So yes, I think he should have gone to prison, you dont deserve a get out of jail free card, because you were to cowardly to look a person in the eyes when murdering them.

    Though this got me thinking on Narcissa Malfoy, whois a more complex case. I belive the only illegal thing we ever see her do is having Snape swear the unbreakable Vow, which seems like it would count as conspiracy to commit murder, but I dont think except for her anyone else knew about it at the end of the books. Does anyone remember anything else about what role she played and if she deserved prison?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
  9. Methos

    Methos High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

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    By not having Draco in prison, we were saved from all Dramonie fics that would follow it.

    In addition Narcissa is too hot for Azkaban.

    With a more serious thought, Harry can claim Narcissa saving him, is her way to repay her debt for her actions leading to Sirius death.
    (If he want to morally justify it for himself).

    I expected the Magical World version of the Nuremberg trials, with enough DE choosing suicide.

    Malfoy earned his time in Azkaban, most of his generation earned it, they had Death Camps for muggleborns/squibs and half blood.
    Yet everything is swept under the carpet.

    Did Umbridge survive book 7 and remained alive during the crapilogue ?
     
  10. Stan

    Stan Order Member

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    Do we know whether it was Draco himself and not some other Death Eater who cast that curse? It would be impossible for him to sneak out of Hogwarts to cast the spell -- that's the whole point of going through Katie Bell after all. And it seems unlikely that Draco cast it before the school year given that he was super confident that he would be able to fix the cabinet. The Katie Bell scheme was a desperate measure.
     
  11. Agayek

    Agayek Dimensional Trunk DLP Supporter

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    It's possible that another Death Eater cast the spell for him, but it's not exactly likely. He wasn't exactly supposed to succeed in the first place, the whole job was a punishment detail, so it would seem very strange to me if Voldemort allowed one of his other minions to help him. It's certainly not impossible, but I can't see why any of the other Death Eathers would want to do it.

    Most likely, Draco snuck out through a similar passage as the one that Harry used in PoA, if not the exact same one, and the reason he went through Rosmerta instead of doing it himself was to have a rock-solid alibi for his whereabouts when Katie got the package.
     
  12. DrSarcasm

    DrSarcasm Headmaster

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    I think it's worth remembering that the Ministry seems to operate more on the rules of politics than on the letter of the law. Remember that Stan Shunpike was arrested on "suspicion of Death Eater activity" because the government needed to be seen to be doing something to combat the threat of Voldemort, not because he was actually aligned with them.

    Realistically, I think that given how tenuous the situation was post-Battle of Hogwarts, and with how Harry was very publicly the Savior of the Wizarding World, all it probably took to get the Malfoys off was Harry's word. Given that Pottermore says that the Malfoys avoided Azkaban because of their last-minute switch in allegiance, I think that it was the fact that it was Narcissa's lie to Voldemort that allowed him to be defeated, if not any sympathy Harry was feeling towards Draco due to lingering feelings about Snape's life and sacrifice, that caused Harry to give his word.

    Objectively yes, the Malfoys should have ended up in Azkaban. But I think Harry was too tired of seeing death and broken families to allow that to happen.
     
  13. Stan

    Stan Order Member

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    Draco did say that Greyback would give Borgin a visit, didn't he? And Auntie Bella had been teaching him occlumency, so it''s not as if Draco had no assistance. Plus, Rosmerta could have been imperiused by the Death Eaters for any number of reasons, not just for the specific purpose of helping Draco.

    Draco sneaking out through a Hogsmeade passage is not possible. The whole reason Draco had to use the Vanishing Cabinet to create a new passage was because he knew of no other way in or out of the school that the security measures would not have blocked.
     
  14. Crownworthy

    Crownworthy Banned

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    That could just as easily have been an empty threat.
     
  15. zugrian

    zugrian Fourth Year

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    I agree that there should have been something like the Nuremnberg trials.

    Draco should have done time in Azkaban. He is flat out guilty of multiple counts of attempted murder as well as conspiracy to commit murder. That's ignoring the Unforgivable spells usage & just looking at his crimes. His supposed 'redemption' is lame as hell.

    It doesn't seem like even Lucius goes to Azkaban after the war, and that psycho unleashed a basilisk on a school. WTF?
     
  16. darklordmike

    darklordmike Headmaster

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    Were there security measures, though? Somebody with a better memory of canon will have to remind me. Was there ever an indication that Dumbledore blocked and secured every secret passage in the castle?

    Voldemort's unwillingness or inability to enter the castle always felt like a contrivance to me, given the ease with which Harry and the twins escaped it. Sirius had no trouble getting in and out. Neither did Crouch Jr. and Pettigrew. Even if LV didn't want to enter the castle with Dumbledore there, he could easily learn from Snape when Dumbledore would be away. Did Dumbledore set up some sort of Voldemort/Death Eater radar in the later books that I just can't recall?
     
  17. Agayek

    Agayek Dimensional Trunk DLP Supporter

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    I mean, yeah, it's totally possible that one or more of the Death Eaters would be perfectly happy to step in on Draco's request. But considering that it would require a) helping someone succeed after their lord and master explicitly set them up for failure, and b) assist someone at the absolute bottom tier of the influence ladder who has negative prospects for being able to repay the favor in future, it's not exactly likely, especially given that Death Eaters as a group aren't exactly inclined toward altruism or self-sacrifice.

    It's a theoretical possibility, but for all practical purposes it may as well be impossible.

    As for him being able to sneak out, you're gonna have to provide some measure of evidence. There's a world of difference between a single student, not materially different from any of the dozens of others that regularly come and go from the castle, and a large group of, essentially, enemy combatants with no existing tie to the school. It's certainly theoretically possible that Draco was singled out and his access through Hogwarts' wards was revoked, and it would certainly make sense for Dumbledore to do that if he was capable of it given what he knew, but there's no clear evidence of it. And, in fact, circumstantial evidence suggesting Dumbledore would do the opposite, given the chance, considering how he bent over backwards to accommodate Draco's ploy.
     
  18. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    @Taure: I want to pick apart your "should". In a factual sense (is this something that should have happened as a logical consequence of the actions we were shown): Assuming no monkey courts, he can only be convicted for what can be reasonably shown to have happened. There are no witnesses to link the necklace, the meat, Rosmerta etc. to Draco. Snape is dead, Dumbledore is dead, Lucius and Narcissa won't incriminate him. Harry knows nothing about those incidents, beyond speculation. So what is left is Dumbledore on the tower.

    Dumbledore, however, A) was dying already, B) wanted to be killed, just not by Draco. And true enough, Draco doesn't kill him. If Harry sticks to the truth, and honours Dumbledore's attempts to prevent Draco from becoming a murderer, he suddenly isn't a witness for the prosecution, but a witness for the defence. He would tell the judges that Draco was forced to kill Dumbledore, but in the end stopped, didn't follow through. Dumbledore's death, on the other hand, can't be laid at his feet, even circumstantially, he would say, because Dumbledore always intended to have Snape kill him. So the most of what "should" happen (in the above sense) is a slap on the wrist -- perhaps they can gank him for arraging the circumstances that allowed Death Eaters into Hogwarts, which caused minor injuries in the student body.

    Now as for what should happen in a moral sense -- I have no issue with Draco being self-serving. He was in an impossible situation, and I'm reasonably sure I would make the same decision. Doing what is right over what is easy is all well and good, until what is "right" is undefined, and what is "easy" doesn't exist. Real life has a habit of forcing simple rules to break down. Hard to fault him, then. I do have an issue with him being fucking stupid -- all the plans we (as readers) are shown are his are harebrained nonsense or full out retarded. Stupidity isn't punishable, but if you ask me what I'd like to see, it's a reasonably lengthy (say one or two years) stay in Azkaban to force him to think about whether attempting to kill the most powerful wizard of his time with poisoned mead or a cursed fucking necklace is any way reasonable.

    The vanishing cabinet was good. Should've focused his energy on that one.


    In a more general scope -- what should happen to any of the people who didn't oppose Voldemort? There's a million of degrees -- from Death Eaters who killed and tortured to people who just kept their head down and looked the other way, trying to survive, and everything in between. What about aurors who continued to follow orders? What about the leaflet writers in the MoM producing propaganda? What about clerks who worked in the Muggleborn Registration Commission?

    I mean, we have a realworld answer to that. Convict high ranking, notable figures, and let go all the rest, because you can't imprision an entire people, and it's not a problem that can't be solved in court, anyway, only within society as it reckons with what it has done over decades to come. So in that sense, it's clear, and Ministry personnel would get a pass, Umbridge on the other hand wouldn't. And perhaps that is the most fair approach, but satisfying -- for all the Muggleborns that suffered -- it can't ever be. It's a messy thing, and whichever way it shakes out, there's only losers.

    Consider, as an example, the figure of Pius Thicknesse. By all accounts, he is conservative pureblood of Malfoy's ilk, and he's directly responsible for every atrocious policy the Ministry created, and literally the cause of death of Muggleborns. Yet he was put under the Imperius Curse. A trial would have the most prominent, visible face of Voldemort's reign walk free. Alternatively, he would be made an example of, and punished without crimes to his name to satisfy the sense of justice of a people. What do you do here? There is no solution that is in any sense fair.

    I also come back to the point I made before, about how any sort of meaningful change to the structure of the wizarding world, and the pureblood's hold on power, can only happen while working outside this structure. You cannot use the Ministry to change the Ministry. So the fact that Kingsley becomes Minister, immediately after winning on the battlefield, means his ability to even start going after figures that weren't caught red-handed in the Battle of Hogwarts is severely limited, and the best shot the wizarding world had at revamping influence is gone.

    In that world, which is the same as the old world, Draco isn't going to prison, not because Harry is noble and fair, but because Wizengamot elders are sympathetic to his case and can be convinced not to send a pureblood to prison.
     
  19. Longsword

    Longsword Banned

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    Is this fanon ?
    We do not know how Kingsley became the minister. For all you know he simply did a soft coup by using his position in law enforcement. Think Kerensky's provisional government.
    Kingsley and his supporters could very well have decided to clean house and create a new basis to prosecute purebloods who had too much support in established wizarding institutions.
    Remember that if allowed to slip it would have been the second time in living history. A lot of people would demand blood.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  20. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    @Longsword: If you mean the bolded, no:
    As for Kingsley, he was named Acting Minister as per DH. I think we can take this at face value, given there is never any indication shown to the contrary -- he literally succeeds Thicknesse as the head of the body we know. Which of course means that his legitimacy and power derives from it, so he can't very well question it without de-legitimising himself.

    I'm also more dubious on the reaction of the "people". Muggleborns would, sure. They are also irrelevant. Relevant are halfbloods and purebloods. The track record there is "see nothing, hear nothing, say nothing" (your average halfblood) and "gee I think I like it" (your average pureblood). The precedent is precisely the point -- if Malfoy can be a highly respected(!) individual once, any Death Eater following the same playbook can a second time around.

    Then again, Taure agrees with you. Both our postwar takes on the wizarding world diverge accordingly. In this situation, I am a lot more pessimistic than he is.
     
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