It's been done in many; through use of imperio, godlike powers, etc. What I want to ask is whether you'd find this believable.

In 1984, by Orwell, I was introduced to the concept of doublethink. The process of holding two contradictory statements in your mind, and simultaneously believing them. This is, of course, self-delusion on an enormous scale, but I’d like to import that idea to HP.
According to HPlexion,
The most powerful Truth serum available, this colorless, odorless potion (which looks like plain water) forces the drinker to tell the truth. Truth is of course subjective. And using Double Think, holding two statements; I killed. I did not Kill, and choosing them by choose when asked (since you have two answers to choose from), thereby undermining the potion.
So, if you read this, would you find it believable?

 

JKR has listed the ways of beating veritaserum on her site, though I can't find it now.

From what I can remember, she said that occlumency can be employed against it, and that as the potion only forces the the drinker to speak the truth and does not disable the body, the drinker can employ a variety of means against it, such as silencing themselves.

Also, I believe that the potion does not make the drinker tell the truth as they percieve it, but simply the truth. That is the magic of it and is the reason why it's considered to be the most poweful.

My basis for this is the fact that JKR has said that the magic of the pensive works by not showing a person their memory as they remember it, but their memory as it happened exactly, whether the person had seen some of it or not. Veritaserum presumably acts in the same way.

 

Yep, occlumency definately can beat veritaserum, this is why they don't use it on trial and so on. Hell, maybe barty managed to somehow say lie in his interrogation, and krum cruciod Cedric on purpose...

 

But consciousness only utilise a “single CPU”, so you can only focus on one statement at the time, so you have to give one statement a higher priority or something. So what you need is more nerve connections to that particular statement/memory, and you should probable be able to fix that with magic.

So if you get the question “Did you kill Ginny W?”. The mind takes the fastest route to the true memory. As both memories can be true, the memory with the fastest access time is chosen.



Wouldn't it be easier to just put up a temporal memory block about the murder, or just remove the memory? Write down what happened, remove the memory, go to the trail, go home and find the paper and read what happen. A little like "Memento".

What you can't remember you can't lie about.


There are a lot of scientific ways you can fool veritiserum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Memory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cognition

Take a look at those wiki links. Might give you an idea how to fool the system.

But they need the memory in the first place than. So if you don't have it...

 

Ah... then I've not been updated enough.
Thanks for the info.

 

Whoa.

If i read that right, then i'm in utter disagreement. If Veritaserum just forced you to tell what really happened, then:

1) The ministry would just give a drop or two to any random person, and ask a question like "What is You-Know-Who's next target?" The answer would emerge, even if the person didn't know...the 'magic would make it happen'.

2) Voldemort would ask "Where is the HQ of the OotP?" This would bypass the Fidelius, too.

I think you may have meant that differently, and i just misinterpreted it. Did you mean that if the person was asked a question about something they []knew]/i], then they would be unable to put their own spin on the events? As in they would be forced to tell things as they happened, but would be unable to give their own opinion rather than state the plain facts?

That I agree with, but then again, the Veritaserum scene in GoF negates that.

When Dumbledore questions Barty Crouch, at the end, Crouch jr. is able to put his own spin on things, like when he says "And my master will reward me, the most loyal of his servants" or something.

 

"And my master will reward me, the most loyal of his servants"

Maybe that wasn't an opinon, but the truth...

Obviously, if a person doesn't know something, they will be unable to answer.

What I was meaning was that if say, a person had been told a lie but that person thought it was the truth, despite what that person may think, the potion would still not allow it to be said as the potion would recognise it as a lie, no matter what the person thinks.

 

Ah, okay. That could happen...perhaps the subconscious is able to identify something as an untruth, even though the conscious believes it to be the truth.

I'd like to think that Veritaserum is just liquid legilimency, only since it is already isnide you, it doesn't have to beat your shields. So, going with that, if you think that the world is flat, and someone asks "What shape is the world?" your reply would be "It is flat."

Basically, i'm thinking that its just a way of forcing you to tell things. Not necessarily the truth, but tis called a truth potion because that's what its used for. Of instance, rather than ask if someone committed a crime, to find out a yes/no answer, it could be used to force you to reveal your darkest dreams, etc.

So, 'Truth Potion' is, IMO, not as appropriate as 'Liquid Legilimency'

 

Huh? What are you talking about?

 

In HBP, when Dumbledore so desperately needed that memory of Slughorn telling Tom about the horcruxes, he didn't just veritaserum the SOB and pull it out of him, and it was apparently a self-imposed memory block, if I remember rightly. I would assume someone as accomplished (read: sleazy) as Slughorn would be at least adept at occlumancy, so this would be pointless, hence all the hard work to get the memory. I always thought that you could just do as snape and Dumbledore did, stick unwanted memories in a pensive so they aren't there. I figured this way alluded to earlier, so count this as me affirming that, if that's the case. Aside from that, in both Tom's diary and the pensive scenes, Harry is a outside observer, rather than viewing from first person, even though whose ever memory it is could not see what's behind them, Harry could. This implies magic is at least able to use subliminal information, if not reconstruct unknown information.

Then again, trying to use logic to define JKR's works? Let's try for the meaning of life, it'll probably come easier.

 

You do know that Rowling has said and written on her site that veritaserum cannot force a master occlumens user?

 

Done:

BOT, I agree that being an Occlumens would allow a person some resistance to Veritaserum, but if they were given enough of a dose, no amount of mental protection would keep their secrets safe. But, I personally think that, if given in a large enough amount, it could also poison someone, because it is a mind altering substance, and they could overdose from it. Much like the amount poured down Barty Crouch Jr's mouth at the end of the GOF movie, where he got the entire bottle down his gob. He should have died from a neurological siezure brought on by overstimulation of the memory centres of the brain.

 

Occulumency fully blocks Veritaserum. JKR stated that this is the reason it isnt used on Sirius in his trial. Veritaserum can be rebelled against, which is stupid. What's the point if there is still a way for someone to lie?

 

...

What JK Rowling says about Veritaserum doesn't mean all that much to me. Luckily, she hasn't fleshed out this idea in canon by making a Occlumens Master be given Veritaserum...she's created enough gaping plot holes with the magic she has described.

Frankly, until she writes this idea/theory into canon, i won't pay much heed to it. As of now, it isn't mentioned in canon, so i'm free to use it the way i'd like to in Chimera.

Now...let me point out, just for kicks, a plot hole created by this. Dumbledore is a legilimens, correct? By all means, he is constantly using legilimency on people...in Harry's fifth year, when he feels the snake rising inside him, Dumbeldore looks uncomfortable. He doesn't look into Harry's eyes, because that would connect the minds of Dumbledore, Harry and Voldemort.

Now...if he uses legilimency all the time, then he would have discovered that Barty Crouch was in Hogwarts, under the guise of his 'good friend Alastor'. So...i hear you say "Crouch was an occumens...he was Voldemort's most loyal/whatever, he would have known Occlumency."

Okay, lets say he did know occumency. Then, Arkeus...explain how the veritaserum worked on him?

This is what i mean. JK writes to make money, period. She certainly has some great ideas, but since money is her motivation (IMO), she hasn't taken the trouble to flesh out her magical concepts properly. Knowing that by the time her series is finished, the readers who were 10 when they came out would be about 18-19...she really should ahve put more effort into making her magical theories be congruous with each other.

 

oh, i agree it is full of holes. She constantly contradicts herself. I was just pointing out that there was an "official" answer to the question.

Beside, while i don't like Bastard!Dumbledore, i can see him as letting things happen in order to see what harry is capable of, or for other reasons (yeah, my mind is a mess). It would explain why he let a twice attempted murderer in school that long (Malfoy jr)