I *really* believe that a civil war is just about the worst thing that can happen to a country. And for a tiny, hidden community, one that shields an absolutely irreplaceable genetic trait, fomenting a murderous insurrection Should Be treated like the treason that it is.

Riddle and his myrmidons were breaking the Statute of Secrecy in wholesale lots. This IS NOT a harmless little prank. It is not even simply a felony. It should be considered something like betrayal against the species. The UN has an offense called "Crimes against humanity." Why doesn't the International Council of Wizards have the same offense?

Why didn't THEY interfere? What Voldemort was advocating (and enacting) is a policy that has immediate global repercussions. The Secret was getting thinner every week. It wouldn't have been long before nothing could hide it any longer - and the Western European Pureblood Agenda would be publicized worldwide. The States, at the very least, would take THAT attitude like a slap across the face.

JKR never even addressed that issue. Did Voldie really believe that his Death Eaters and DE sympathizers could stand against The Entire Rest of the Planet?

That idea didn't work so well for Hitler, did it?

 

We actually have no idea what level of support he had in a) the UK populace and b) the rest of the world. He could have had whole countries backing him for all we know. If he had say the whole of Eastern Europe, Russia and the Middle East supporting his cause then he would have been a force to be reckoned with. If he only had 20-30 deatheaters, 200 unmarked supporters, 40 werewolves, a small number of giants and a few hundred dementors then he would have no hope at all.

 

I think being confirmed as a Death Eater should carry some assumptions when considering punishment, like it's obvious they've killed someone, used magic in front of muggles, and actively support political sedition/treason. I know in many countries, including Canada and Britain, up until we got rid of the noose anyway, you would hang if convicted of treason.

That being said, using magic in front of muggles really should be looked at on a case by case basis. Guy trips on the street, tears his shirt, and uses a reparo in front of a muggle, I'd say a small fine and a stern warning. Guy like Wormtail, who did it in broad daylight on a crowded street, killing 12 and probably wounding dozens of others, or Malfoy, who was Voldemort's commander in charge of muggle torture, should be taken out behind the Ministry and shot.

 

I think that's the point. JKR didn't address it. She probably didn't even realize that what she was writing could have an effect on her fictional world. I'm betting the only reason she even include the few references that Voldemort was recruiting in other countries was just to show that Voldemort wasn't a local problem. Yet at the same time she didn't follow that up with how other countries responded to a Dark Wizard recruiting in their countries. She makes it sound like the entire wizarding community in each country 100% supported him or just completely ignored him.

I believe this is just another instance of JKR's half-baked plot ideas, and shitty story structure.

 

But my point stands - either he had enough power to enact and enforce his policies globally, or he didn't.

He would have needed LOTS of money to suborn established governments all over the planet. He would need incredible amounts of personal magnetism to make his supporters into fanatical loyalists, ones who would enforce his policies without diluting them. He would have needed awesome personal magical ability because that appears to be the only route to the respect of the British magical community. He would need some Damn Good publicity artists to spin murder and torture into "freedom fighting." He would have needed DIRECTED ruthlessness against the entrenched policy makers - Dumbledore is only an example of the individuals who wouldn't accept the changes.

He had all those, more or less, before Halloween '81. He probably inherited a lot of support from Grindelwald's faction. From what we know, he and his Marked followers were confident that they could break down all those who opposed them, and were aiming at total victory. (I can't see Lucius Malfoy or Rookwood supporting a possible loser.) Bellatrix seemed to worship him as a god.

But after the attack on the Potters, A Lot of that should have quietly dissipated. A loudly publicized defeat at the attempted murder of an infant, a decade of utter obscurity, and the imprisonment of so many loyalists in Azkaban couldn't have been good for the Cause. If AD had done his job as head of the Wizengamott, or used his personal power to At Least force Malfoy and his ilk out of the country, the Second War would have gotten off to a Much Slower start.

I can't believe that he still had the kind of influence he needed to force the rest of the world to accept his policies...

 

I never liked how Voldemort's death eaters are considered as an army, and the whole concept of the 'First war', or 'Second war' when the Dark Lord ressurected.

In such a small community (There's not even 25k Wizards in the whole britain!) it would be more of a terrorist organisation.

But well, JKR made Voldemort into a stupid vilain, without any particular aim except mindless Muggle and Muggleborn killing. Why would people follow him if all they get is being tortured because they failed something?

If people were to follow him... not even desperate people, but rich purebloods, then there'd better be some good reasons.

A terrorist organisation who try to take control of the government (because they have some ideals and solid ideas) not by killing randomly, but by having 'political assassinations'.

lnky

 

The Statute of Secrecy is one of Voldemort's greatest weapons. Think about it. All he has to do is kill a few muggles in some shopping centre, and the Ministry will set about obliviating witnesses. Meanwhile, he and his followers are free to attack Diagon Alley/Hogsmeade/whatever without fear of resistance.

 

Er...guys, remember that Voldemort did in fact take over a country, and very easily. It wasn't just random killings he did.

It wouldn't take much for him to replicate his success in Britain elsewhere. One Imperious curse per country in fact. Either on the leader himself, or on someone else in the government who can then go on casting more Imperious curses around the place.

JKR really did overpower that spell.

 

Yes, it was WAAY too convenient for balance. I always assumed that every gov't that could afford a presidential bodyguard had someone one the staff who could detect the Imperious. Whether the C-i-C actually knew about it or not.

 

Its a childrens book

 

And yet, I don't know anyone on this site that could be called, physically anyways, a child. We all love this series and we expected something more past the fourth book.

It should have been:
1-4 centered on Hogwarts
5 progressing towards a wider scaled setting
6-7 in an actually thought out war.

Instead we got:
1-6 focused completely in Hogwarts
7 on a happy horcrux hunt.

There was no war that we felt or saw. (which is why the statute question is mute besides in fanfiction) Who the hell cared about 'that French school' falling, or that muggle town being sacked by dementors. We sure as hell didn't. Why? Because JKR didn't want to take the time to make up a wider setting. She included Hogwarts, Harry's homes, the MOM, and the places he went to Horcrux hunting- only the places she needed to include for the horrible plot she picked.

Why couldn't one of the Horcruxes have been near 'that French school'? Harry could have come upon it just as it was done being razed. He could have come upon any of the muggle towns that were destroyed. But no, instead she had him stuck in tents and shit going all angsty over Ron and Hermione and Ginny.

There was no war. There was a load of teen-angst bullshit followed by Harry practically committing suicide in order to 'win'.

 

Quoting Monty Python: "I was looking for a good argument!"

It's difficult to have many serious adult discussions about most children's books - JKR did us a favor making "Harry Potter" so very long. There's a lot of detail to consider. Part of the reason for fanfic is to explore the issues that get glossed over as "too mature" or "not fun enough" to entertain fourteen-year-old kids.

 

It's like watching Dawson's Creek/any other generic teen drama.

Seriously it amuses me to know end that apparently hundreds are dying yet he is worried about ginger being mad at him. Or of course thinking of his undying love for the gin-slut.

And of course since this is a children's book you can't get into Voldemorts actual plan for world domination. Because then it might be misconstrued as some kind of instruction manual for terrorism.

The Anarchist Cookbook kiddie version.:banana:

 

Can we please leave the whole ginslut faggotry aside for now? Unless I've somehow missed the entire point Banner was trying to make here, we're contemplating the(or an, as it may be) unsolved mysteries of canon. Not citing fanon. Ginny had no real development in Canon, and thus nothing solid enough to say she was a dirty whore, so please, just leave it out of this conversation.

Back on topic, I might have something to say but first I need something clarified to see if it's valid or not. On that note;Inky, can you cite your source as to magical Britain's population? Was it JKR herself who said it, or what? I don't remember it in any of the books.

 

As far as JKR's world goes, Britain is the centre of the universe and the rest of the world is basically non-existant.
That of course completely disregards the fact that instantaneous travel over long distances and very small population-sizes per country should lead to an extremely globalised world where national borders have very little importance.

There is no source about Britain's magical population since even Rowling does not have the foggiest idea.
The number of students in Harry's year (about 40) and the fact that Hogwarts is the only magical school in Britain, which almost every witch and wizard visists, point to a population of around 5,000. The size of the Quidditch World Cup, the size of the ministry and a couple of other things point to a much larger population.

 

Rowling has actually said that she imagines the population at around 3000.

However, she has also said that she uses numbers in an unscientific way - she uses them to convey ideas and feelings, rather than actual figures.

So the figure of 3000 for population isn't an actual figure, it simply symbolises the feeling of the Wizarding community: the way everyone knows each other, the small-town nature of wizarding settlements, the family feuds etc.

Similarly, the figure she gave for the Hogwarts population of around 1000 isn't an actual figure (we know the Hogwarts population to be around 280) but gives the feeling of Hogwarts as a large high school, even if it is actually much smaller.

 

I *knew* I remembered reading that there were a thousand people in the Great Hall at mealtimes. The thing is, if they could take a significant part of the population of two other schools, as well, then Hogwarts is HUGELY underpopulated. Does this mean that the number of students was much higher once-upon-a-time?

 

Or that the castle is just far bigger than needed. Plus, the Beauxbatons and Durmstrang delegations weren't that big. 10-20 people per school perhaps? And they slept in their own accommodation, not in the school.

 

If the castle is so much bigger then needed (Please note the multitude of empty classrooms), I think it can be attriputed to a sudden drop in population. Such continued war most have steadily depleted the number of breeders, combine that with the fact that people of wealth (e.i. Pure-bloods) rarely produce large numbers of children, and you understand why Wizards had to start interbreeding with muggles on occasion.

I'd say that much of the evidence points to previous devistating population loss.

 

Or that the castle wasn't purpose built. Whose to say the Founders didn't simply occupy a previously built castle and convert it to a school?

It makes sense in a way. If you were building a school, a castle is hardly the most sensible form for it to take, even in the Middle Ages, and especially if you're a wizard.

Or, alternatively, when the Founders built the castle they built it bigger than they needed to, anticipating a growth in population - a growth that never occurred.

Or, yet again alternatively, when the school was built it provided for the whole world, being the first school of its kind. AS other countries built schools, Hogwarts' population dropped.