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How competent is Dumbledore?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Pikachu, May 21, 2023.

  1. Pikachu

    Pikachu Banned

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    It's not just Harry, Lee Jordan and some other kids as well. There was no way they others kept quiet.
     
  2. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Feel like, once again, this is Dumbledore being a victim of his own hype. If he's really this amazing wizard who's been a professor for ages, causes Voldemort fear, etc. then he should likely be aware of the things going on in his school. It literally boils down to a form of plot induced stupidity. And that's one of the areas where Harry Potter, as a children's book series that transitioned into a young adult novel, fails. The disconnect between children novel where things can be magically handwaved away starts to disappear as the series itself takes itself more seriously.

    The onus is on the reader to account for this different style and recognize. Accept the disconnect between the childlike nature of the fiction etc. If it breaks your suspension of disbelief too much then it's not the book series for you, but attempting in universe explanations ultimately fail because the real explanation is genre changes in the book series itself.
     
  3. Slayer Singh

    Slayer Singh First Year

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    Let's assume they didn't. Umbridge still has supreme authority over any and all punishments, due to the Educational Decrees. I prefer to think that my English is good enough to interpret that if this applies to Hogwarts, then 'supreme' means she can override Dumbledore.

    Besides, I think I explained sufficiently well why not many people would frown upon using the quill, if much worse punishments were accepted before Dumbledore.
     
  4. Pikachu

    Pikachu Banned

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    Is this some kind a joke? Harry's friends are outraged when they see it. I don't think anyone is going to accept it silently. End of day Hogwarts students keep getting harmed throughout the series which questions how good a headmaster Dumbledore was as he repeatedly fails to keep them safe every book including a death eater masquerading as a teacher every other book. And finally to top it off a death eater attack which hurts half his students by end of book 6. You honestly think Harry is always up for find the death eater each year?
     
  5. Shinysavage

    Shinysavage Madman With A Box ~ Prestige ~

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    Ultimately, we can argue specifics, but it boils down to Dumbledore being extremely competent while at the same time being far from perfect.
     
  6. Slayer Singh

    Slayer Singh First Year

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    Sure, and Harry's friends were also sure Snape was after the Philosopher's Stone.

    No one may accept it silently, but that doesn't change the fact that Umbridge was given supreme authority by the law makers. It may surprise you, but Dumbledore is obligated to follow the law as well. If he takes control by force, or any underhanded means, then he'll be a tyrant, not a saviour. And in doing so, he'd simply prove that Fudge was right. The man has his hands tied down by the law.

    Yeah, that might happen when the antagonist is the greatest wizard to ever live.

    Really? And who else do you suggest could maintain that level of competence against Lord Voldemort? Besides, there is only one book where Dumbledore fails to recognise the Death Eater in disguise, and only two Death Eaters(which is still arguable in Quirrel's case) were 'teaching'.

    Fails to keep them safe? Without Dumbledore, Hogwarts would fall within days, if not hours. Voldemort doesn't fear a frontal assault on the castle in his absence.

    I was unaware there were only 48 students at Hogwarts, which would make the at most two dozen (and that's really stretching it) injured students half the population.


    It's almost like you want Dumbledore to be inept, and want to hate him, rather than try to think of explanations of why what happened, happened. If you do, which I believe is the case, then take Shinysavage's explanation - he put it quite succinctly, and you'll also be satisfied.
     
  7. Pikachu

    Pikachu Banned

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    Let's be honest here. It's not Dumbledore but Harry who keeps saving the day and keeps shit hitting fan every other book. If he were as competent as made out then HP doesn't need to show up to save the day. Infact with ring thing he knew he would be cursed but still chose it wear it anyway forgetting the larger picture. Yes Dumbledore defeated Grindlewald and Voldemort feared him. But it was Harry who stopped him every single time not Dumbledore who was mostly inept in the whole war against Voldemort. He died and Harry got rid of the Horcuxes and Voldemort. And his order of Phoenix disintegrated the moment he died leaving HP in a really bad place. Yes he gave Harry the information to defeat him but he should and could have done far more to thwart Voldemort end of the day. He may be clever but when the wizarding world needed him against Voldemort he didn't put up much a defense and died letting him take over the country. His plan mostly depended on Harry and co's competence and through mostly luck and fight the day was saved.
     
  8. aAlouda

    aAlouda High Inquisitor

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    When Dumbledore went to school students could be hanged from the ceiling and whipped as punishment if Filch is anything to go by. Obviously Dumbledore abolished it, but what he deems worth intervening is probably beyond modern safety standards.

    Dude was busy with the war effort trying to build alliances and tracking down Horcruxes to kill Voldemort, as long as people aren't actually complaining about stuff it's unliekly to me that he would consider it worth the headache of going against Fudge in this.
     
  9. Pikachu

    Pikachu Banned

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    While I agree with this and am still wary of his actions hearing he is not the infallible wizard he's made out to be when we first meet him really brings down the hype he's had all these years.
     
  10. Shinysavage

    Shinysavage Madman With A Box ~ Prestige ~

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    That's fair, to be honest. Absolutely unbelievable that the main character had to deal with the plot instead of his mentor. Can't believe I didn't realise that sooner.
     
  11. Pikachu

    Pikachu Banned

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    That would explain why he did nothing about the whole Dursley abuse thing. I'm not sure what standards he has but letting Dursleys abuse the wizarding world savior and make him live like a slave was a dick move. Hell the whole cupboard under the stairs thing and Dumbledore not doing anything was a new low.
     
  12. Pikachu

    Pikachu Banned

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    Yes and no. Let's compare him with Gandalf who does more than his share of fighting, saving the world along with the protagonists.
     
  13. Slayer Singh

    Slayer Singh First Year

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    I tried being nice. I tried explaining stuff bit by bit, rather than wildly flinging around ridiculous claims. Clearly, that hasn't worked. I'll be blunt.

    So, buddy, please read the books properly.

    My first message on this thread was a link that explained the entirety of Dumbledore's plan, and you clearly haven't bothered to read. I wrote about the corporeal punishments part, and you didn't bother to read. If you are simply seeking an argument, please say so. I'll stop wasting my time.


    Hardly. Gandalf could've gone full Ainu and stopped Sauron, and done a dozen other things. He should've predicted all of Pippin's mistakes. He should've known Saruman's treachery, and read Denethor's mind, etc. He should've taken the Ring, won the war, and still stayed good.
    Clearly, he is incompetent. This is drawing from your own comments, you know.
    (If you didn't understand, Pikachu, that was sarcasm. This is the kind of stuff you're saying.)
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2023
  14. Pikachu

    Pikachu Banned

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    Already users have stated in this thread his plan was dumb in the first place relying on lots of ifs and buts and with him being dead. The main difference here is Gandalf actually formed the fellowship, was their leader in the journey and guiding them through only to unexpectedly to die at the start of the journey dying to protect them which you can be fair about compared to knowingly putting on the ring killing himself and abandoning HP to take a solo journey.
     
  15. Slayer Singh

    Slayer Singh First Year

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    Again, you refused to even try and read what I've said. And it's becoming increasingly obvious you weren't really paying attention when 'reading' the books. Before you try to jump into an argument, read what the person you're talking with has said. It may help in giving you a better image, perhaps one even better than what it should be.
     
  16. yargle

    yargle Professor

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    To further support this point: In a Dumbledore-free world it only took 32 days for Voldemort to literally conquer and then rule Magical Britain. Math based off 30Jun1997 being Dumbledore's death and 01Aug1997 being the coup/wedding.
     
  17. Pikachu

    Pikachu Banned

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    I have infact read most of your arguments and I'm not really buying it with other posters in thread. As Arthellion already said stop trying to make in canon arguments to explain everything away and just accept his flaws and the books flaws.
     
  18. Pikachu

    Pikachu Banned

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    More like Voldemort was readying his army through book 5 and 6 using the Ministry vs Harry Potter situation advantage. Dumbledore or not Voldemort needed time to regain his forces.
     
  19. yargle

    yargle Professor

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    Pikachu, I weep for any literature teacher you have ever had.

    The point is that Dumbledore was literally the only thing stopping Voldemort from ruling. Thirty-two days is NOTHING in such an endeavor. If that doesn't mean that Dumbledore is "competent" I have to wonder what exactly your definition of competent is. Because based off the definitions I know (having knowledge/skill/experience to do something successfully; efficient and capable; satisfactory and acceptable but not outstanding) Dumbledore is, at worst, extremely competent.
     
  20. Slayer Singh

    Slayer Singh First Year

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    Sure. I did not try to imply Dumbledore is infallible, but if it came across as that, I'm sorry. That was not my intention. Since the series started off as a children's book and evolved to YA, there are some obvious potholes.

    That's definite proof you never read HBP and DH. By the end of OotP, Voldemort had already accumulated enough power, and in HBP, he'd started his attack. Also, Hogwarts and the Ministry has already fallen to him in DH - the Battle of Hogwarts only took place because the Professors and students rebelled. He didn't need an army to take over a school, the country was already his.

    Please go and read the books, and then come back. You're a Sanderson fan, and no one objected to that, really, but if you try to compare his works to Rowling's, you'll perhaps not like Harry Potter. If you don't want to read, it's fine. Don't bother us with it, though. It's remarkably irritating.

    Does he have a problem with the English language? I don't claim to be an expert, but he just has to ask. There are plenty of people here who will help him out. That may also explain his utter ignorance of other people's arguments.
     
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